I stumbled on this:

http://www.templatenetwork.org/topaz/07/en/13.html

What does the team think?

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com
A useful bit of gardening software at http://www.netservs.com/garden/

On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 17:40 +0100 (BST), (Steve Harris)
wrote:

I stumbled on this:

http://www.templatenetwork.org/topaz/07/en/13.html

Chocolate and teapot come to mind. Dunno if all that copper has any
deterrent effect on the slugs but the idea of copper tools is mind
boggling, a copper spade *might* survive as long as 15 seconds in our
soil but I doubt it..

=================================================

Rod

Weed my email address to reply.
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html

"Steve Harris" wrote in message
...
I stumbled on this:

http://www.templatenetwork.org/topaz/07/en/13.html

What does the team think?

I can't rule out that in some way the copper tools are having an effect, but
the 'scientific' explanation seems like complete bunkum to me.

I often find this with any form of 'alternative' approaches, be it to
medicine, horticulture, or whatever.People find something that does seem to
work, but instead of saying "hey, I'm not sure why this should work, but it
does - why not give it a try", they have to over-egg the pudding and make up
some completely daft pseudo-scientific claptrap to explain the phenomenon.
This is actually counterproductive, because the silly scientific explanation
puts people off from trying something that just might actually work!

Personally, I don't care too much if I don't understand how something
works - the main thing is that it works!

Rick

agreed. i got to the part about homeopathy being a legitimate 'scientific'
discipline, and wrote the author off as a kook.

they have to over-egg the pudding and make up
some completely daft pseudo-scientific claptrap to explain the phenomenon.


Just because you fail to understand the scientific answer to this or any
other explanation, does not mean it is clap trap. There may be a number of
explanations which some are understood by one or two people but not by
others and another explanation understood by them, but not by the former.

A chunk of metal lying around long enough, will pick up the magnetic
signature of the Earth, move that chunk of metal to another position and not
lying in the same North South, or East West position, will give off a minute
signature to the soil, or in the case of ships, the sea. That is one way
Magnetic Mines work, they are detonated by the change of magnetic signature
around them, i,e, a big chink of steel passing above them. If you would like
to look at the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth when on WWII service, you will
see huge great cables hung around their sides. These are Degaussing (sp)
cables and a current was passed through them, for a period in one direction,
and then changed to the other direction, to set up a magnetic field which
altered and thus hopefully, detonate the mine away from the ship. What you
are seeing in the slug/snail explanation, "could" be the fact that by using
copper tools, there is no magnetic signature left as they said. Copper does
not have a magnetic signature unless carrying a current.

You might say that the signature might be very small. It would be, but if I
tell you that I was assisting an Electronics Engineer to measure the
conductivity of very dry sand, an insulator, then you might understand that
magnetism, and thus electricity, works in strange ways.

Mike

"Mike" wrote in message
...
they have to over-egg the pudding and make up
some completely daft pseudo-scientific claptrap to explain the
phenomenon.


Just because you fail to understand the scientific answer to this or any
other explanation, does not mean it is clap trap. There may be a number of
explanations which some are understood by one or two people but not by
others and another explanation understood by them, but not by the former.
[snip]

Ah, there's always someone to take the bait. It's nice to know that in a
bewildering and ever-changing world, you can still rely on some things. ;-)

Thanks for the lecture on degaussing coils, which I am familiar with BTW,
but I am sticking to my guns re the original article about copper tools -
maybe the method works, I don't know, but the explanation is complete
claptrap.

Rick

"Steve Harris" wrote in message
...
I stumbled on this:

http://www.templatenetwork.org/topaz/07/en/13.html

What does the team think?

I think the bloke who wrote that knows no physics at all.
I think he has not the foggiest idea of what constitutes anecdotal
evidence, what constitutes chance, and how to perform and report a
scientific experiment.
I think he has to believe in homeopathy if the quantities of copper
which would rub off a spade will affect a snail or a slug.

Franz

I sometimes wish I was so clever that I could dismiss someone's explanation
as clap trap.

Must be very lonely being the most clever person in the world.

Who do you hold conversations with?
..
..
..
..


Silly me,
..
..
..
Yourself

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 05:05:48 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


I think the bloke who wrote that knows no physics at all.
I think he has not the foggiest idea of what constitutes anecdotal
evidence, what constitutes chance, and how to perform and report a
scientific experiment.
I think he has to believe in homeopathy if the quantities of copper
which would rub off a spade will affect a snail or a slug.

I was too busy falling about laughing at the thought of copper tools
to attempt a critique of the 'science'.

=================================================

Rod

Weed my email address to reply.
http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html

"Mike" wrote in message
...
I sometimes wish I was so clever that I could dismiss someone's
explanation
as clap trap.

Must be very lonely being the most clever person in the world.

Who do you hold conversations with?

Actually, since you have removed all vestiges of headers and context,
it is impossible to say who you are talking to.

Franz

"Rod" wrote after...
(Steve Harris)
wrote:

I stumbled on this:

http://www.templatenetwork.org/topaz/07/en/13.html

Chocolate and teapot come to mind. Dunno if all that copper has any
deterrent effect on the slugs but the idea of copper tools is mind
boggling, a copper spade *might* survive as long as 15 seconds in our
soil but I doubt it..

I was thinking along the same lines, bent double at the first spade full. To
do what they say how quickly would the Copper tools have to wear out.
Wouldn't it be easier to get some copper swarf or filings from a factory and
chuck it on the soil. What effect does copper in the soil have on plants?
(it's used as a fungicide so what would it do to the soil bacteria etc).
Notice that some expensive bronze tools are being advertised as possibly
slug/snail repellant.
--
Regards
Bob
in Runnymede, 17miles west of London, UK

Sorry guys, I know this is a very old discussion and I am not saying I
agree with the proposition, but it caught my eye.

One thing I do know is that edible snail growers do use copper strip
to confine snails. I originally believed this was something to do with
getting a mild electric 'shock' as their slime reacts with the copper
- still do.

However, this tool thing implies either something different or a
potential electric shock biugger than I thought possible.

These guys sell copper tools and make a passing reference to snails
and slugs not liking copper.

www.implementations.co.uk/
http://www.nutec-supply.com/copper/ Not sure about this one
http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/product.asp?PG=1397

These people (integrated pest management I think) talk about using
copper barriers for snails.
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7427.html

Here's something else, talking this time about water snails and
effects of copper sulfate.
http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/...sti_id=5487993

http://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2004/Projects/J1920.pdf

Guess the thing to do would be to rope off a section of plants and
ring them with copper nails (must have the same effect as using copper
tools if there is one), and do a control with the same plants
elsewhere?

Perhaps the effect is a light electric charge in the soild if you
leave the tools sticking in the ground? One of the above mentions a
380mV charge from copper strip. Also copper fastenings on boat hulls
can rot very quick and produce a sizeable current.

Another thought - copper chloride - if there is a deterioration of the
metal into copper chloride (salts in the soil) this may trigger a
small battery action. The same chemical is used in some cheap water
activated batteries for life jacket lights. Copper chloride being one
of the battery plates.

Steve Newport wrote:
Sorry guys, I know this is a very old discussion and I am not
saying I
agree with the proposition, but it caught my eye.

One thing I do know is that edible snail growers do use copper
strip
to confine snails. I originally believed this was something to do
with
getting a mild electric 'shock' as their slime reacts with the
copper
- still do.

However, this tool thing implies either something different or a
potential electric shock biugger than I thought possible.

These guys sell copper tools and make a passing reference to snails
and slugs not liking copper.

www.implementations.co.uk/
http://www.nutec-supply.com/copper/ Not sure about this one
http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/product.asp?PG=1397
[...]

Bronze is beautiful, so use it if you want to; I wouldn't recommend
it for a garden fork, though. I can't imagine how bronze or copper
tools would have any effect in the garden. And that bit about a piece
of iron disturbing the earth's magnetic field makes me think of the
unfortunate effect my gravitational field has on the Sydney Harbour
Bridge's attempts to stand up straight: the thing was all over the
place after a certain birthday party.

--
Mike.

Steve Newport wrote:
Sorry guys, I know this is a very old discussion and I am not saying I
agree with the proposition, but it caught my eye.
One thing I do know is that edible snail growers do use copper strip
to confine snails. I originally believed this was something to do with
getting a mild electric 'shock' as their slime reacts with the copper
- still do.

I use copper rings all the time. I've bought them for friends and
relatives and all are very happy with them. It's remarkable stuff. I've
grown for example Hollyhocks where I was totally unable to for years. I
do a series of midnight snails/slugs hunts in the spring which kills
all the adults. The copper rings deter the rest. I might be French but
I don't eat the snails ;o)

However, this tool thing implies either something different or a
potential electric shock biugger than I thought possible.
These guys sell copper tools and make a passing reference to snails
and slugs not liking copper.

I don't think it's a gizmo or a marketing point. These tools leave
behind a copper residue, and the older the tools the more sulphate and
chloride sesidue they deposit. It all contributes to the stuff snails
don't like.

La puce wrote:
Steve Newport wrote:
[...]
However, this tool thing implies either something different or a
potential electric shock biugger than I thought possible.
These guys sell copper tools and make a passing reference to
snails
and slugs not liking copper.

I don't think it's a gizmo or a marketing point. These tools leave
behind a copper residue, and the older the tools the more sulphate
and
chloride sesidue they deposit. It all contributes to the stuff
snails
don't like.

Chloride? Sulphate? Ever keen to learn, so whence? I really can't, in
any case, see how ordinary gardening operations with a trowel or
little hand-fork could make the slightest difference -- or even with
digging spade and fork, though surely bronze wouldn't be the most
practical material for these bigger tools? To have an effect on
snails, I'd guess the soil would have to be seriously contaminated,
and we don't want that.

--
Mike.