this last winter i bought a dwarf chinese elm at a local nursery. this
spring i took it out of its nursery container.. in which it had been
growing for quite a few years and was breaking through into the ground. it
has a huge muddy root ball.(even some clay) I had removed about 1/3 off the
bottom of the ball... and cut some pie shaped wedges into the muddy mess in
about three different spots... then placed it in a large growing container
with bonsai soil and trunk chopped it. It has been growing nicely. prolific
shoots and buds. the growth is prolific on one side of the tree only
though. on the other side... buds break.. but dont thrive... the two
branches that have managed to develop on that side are lagging behind,
growing much slower than the other side. Im thinking that this may be from
the rather "blind"root pruning i did. could this be the case?.. that i
removed too large a section of certain roots feeding this side of the tree?
if so... will it rectify itself? how could i fix this? im afraid i were to
graft anything over there is nothing there to feed the branch anyway.

thanks stevew

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Steve,

You may have cut some critical roots that were feeding the side that is
doing poorly. You may also have issues of either water perching or poor
wetting between the old muddy/clayey soil and the newer bonsai soil. For
perching/wetting problems it will be necessary to make sure the soil is
soaked very well when you water (water once, twice, three times a few
minutes apart) and that is it allowed to dry somewhat before you water again
(a chopstick in the soil - the muddy part) can be used to check the moisture
level. The soaking will help solve the problem of a dry center mass while
waiting to water will help solve the problem of a soggy center mass.

When I report and find mud/clay I generally wash the roots to get rid of it
since how it reacts to water will be very different than bonsai soil (hard
to wet and slow to dry). This is risky, but with elms and maples it is not
too dangerous and can be very successful with treatment good after care - do
it as the buds swell, don't cut off many roots, protect from strong sun and
wind, don't over water. In general, you will need to remove all of the
mud/clay soil at some point since it will cause root rot eventually in a
bonsai pot (I remember articles in Bonsai Today about Japanese trees where
it was 20+ years after collection). Depending upon the species, the health
of the tree, the state of the root system, and your level of experience
washing may be the best technique, or you may need to carefully pick out the
old soil with a chopstick.

Marty

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this last winter i bought a dwarf chinese elm at a local
nursery. this
spring i took it out of its nursery container.. in which it had
been
growing for quite a few years and was breaking through into the
ground. it
has a huge muddy root ball.(even some clay) I had removed about
1/3 off the
bottom of the ball... and cut some pie shaped wedges into the
muddy mess in
about three different spots... then placed it in a large
growing container
with bonsai soil and trunk chopped it. It has been growing
nicely. prolific
shoots and buds. the growth is prolific on one side of the tree
only
though. on the other side... buds break.. but dont thrive...
the two
branches that have managed to develop on that side are lagging
behind,
growing much slower than the other side. Im thinking that this
may be from
the rather "blind"root pruning i did. could this be the case?..
that i
removed too large a section of certain roots feeding this side
of the tree?
if so... will it rectify itself? how could i fix this? im
afraid i were to
graft anything over there is nothing there to feed the branch
anyway.


It is always good policy to completely bare root a tree that is
just coming out of a nursery container -- especially one with
"mud" and "clay." This lets you totally untangle the roots so
you can see how they are distributed. However, in this case
that's water over the dam (cliché alert!).

Chinese elms are among the most resilient of plants (except for
my two groves, which turned up their toes (cliché alert!) this
spring for a totally unknown reason). Just give you tree ample
fertilizer, clip hard on the bushy side and you should restore
balance in a year or two.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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thanks guys.... i think now it is probably a result of old matted soil
rather than the pruning itself. i used the "pie sectioning" rather than
removing soil for two reasons...it was rootbound in the pot....and i was
afraid of pulling it apart for doing too much damage as there was so much
mud/clay.. and i did this repotting in my girlfriends bathtub :c).... i
didnt think it would be in such a mess...(i was wrong... she later had to
have someone come over and unclog the drain) so i quickly closed the
bathroom door and did a cursory repotting. at any rate.... im gonna take it
out of its pot... and give the muddy mess a good bucket soaking... and
gentle hosing. the tree has been extremely vigorous this spring. so im
thinking it should be ok. I think the tree had been feeding mainly off the
roots i pulled out of the ground and cut off when i picked it up off the
nursery floor.
and .... with that old soil holding water this summer... and the bonsai
soil around it... if i dont do something while it is relatively early in
the season.. i might end up with sudden tree death syndrome.

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at any rate.... im gonna take it
out of its pot... and give the muddy mess a good bucket
soaking... and
gentle hosing. the tree has been extremely vigorous this
spring. so im
thinking it should be ok.

You may want to think twice if the maple has leafed out fully.

If it were me, I'd wait 'till next spring and water the tree by
immersion for the rest of the year, letting the tree really soak,
then get fairly dry before doing it again. If the roots looked
healthy when you repotted, I don't think you'll develop root rot
in one season.

And when you clean the roots, forget the "gentle hosing." Use
the hard spray on your hose nozzle and really blast the soil out.
You want CLEAN roots. Do it outside. Soil and mud will go
everywhere, including all over you. Let the neighbors laugh.
;-)

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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Steve,

You may have cut some critical roots that were feeding the side that is
doing poorly. You may also have issues of either water perching or poor
wetting between the old muddy/clayey soil and the newer bonsai soil. For
perching/wetting problems it will be necessary to make sure the soil is
soaked very well when you water (water once, twice, three times a few
minutes apart) and that is it allowed to dry somewhat before you water again
(a chopstick in the soil - the muddy part) can be used to check the moisture
level. The soaking will help solve the problem of a dry center mass while
waiting to water will help solve the problem of a soggy center mass.

snip

This is one question I have in reference to the Persiano pick. (Chopsticks in the soil)
It's probably obvious to everyone else but it has me wondering.... Is the chopstick to be
left in the soil, you check it and if it's dry, you need to water.. OR, do you only put
the chopstick in the soil for a few minutes to see if the chopstick is damp. I've been
leaving it in the soil and then started to wonder if this was not the way to do it. A
little clarification would really help!

Thanks,


--

(`'·.¸(`'·.¸*¤*¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¤*katie**¤.·´¨`»
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´*¤*`'·.¸)`'·.¸)

Helena's Sim Estates
http://www.simbella.com/helena/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HelenaSimEstates/

Nothing is the like as using your fingers pinch a little soil and feel how it shreds
between the two fingers it is you get very quickly used to its drying qualities if soggy
or not and how many hours can still stay without watering too
our touch eyes and judgement are better than a computer le's learn to use and trust it
Theo

Helena Handbasket wrote:

Steve,

You may have cut some critical roots that were feeding the side that is
doing poorly. You may also have issues of either water perching or poor
wetting between the old muddy/clayey soil and the newer bonsai soil. For
perching/wetting problems it will be necessary to make sure the soil is
soaked very well when you water (water once, twice, three times a few
minutes apart) and that is it allowed to dry somewhat before you water again
(a chopstick in the soil - the muddy part) can be used to check the moisture
level. The soaking will help solve the problem of a dry center mass while
waiting to water will help solve the problem of a soggy center mass.

snip

This is one question I have in reference to the Persiano pick. (Chopsticks in the soil)
It's probably obvious to everyone else but it has me wondering.... Is the chopstick to be
left in the soil, you check it and if it's dry, you need to water.. OR, do you only put
the chopstick in the soil for a few minutes to see if the chopstick is damp. I've been
leaving it in the soil and then started to wonder if this was not the way to do it. A
little clarification would really help!

Thanks,

--

(`'·.¸(`'·.¸*¤*¸.·'´)¸.·'´)
«´¨`·.¤*katie**¤.·´¨`»
(¸.·'´(¸.·'´*¤*`'·.¸)`'·.¸)

Helena's Sim Estates
http://www.simbella.com/helena/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HelenaSimEstates/

--
How can You put trust in me if I do not trust in Me?
Theo
http://www.byjoke.com/

This is one question I have in reference to the Persiano pick.
(Chopsticks in the soil)
It's probably obvious to everyone else but it has me
wondering.... Is the chopstick to be
left in the soil, you check it and if it's dry, you need to
water.. OR, do you only put
the chopstick in the soil for a few minutes to see if the
chopstick is damp. I've been
leaving it in the soil and then started to wonder if this was
not the way to do it. A
little clarification would really help!


Leave it in.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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G'day all...

Steve...

muddy root ball...this could have been caused by poor drainage...soil too
dense.

pie shaped wedges...you should remove the soil from wedge shaped
sections...should NOT cut out a wedge, roots and all.

one sided growth...probably caused by your "pie" slicing...if you cut
through the roots.

For several years I used the "wedge cutting" proceedure, having read somewhere
"...cut out pie shaped sections..."

Undoubtedly, I lost some trees as a result of (pie slicing) messing up the root
systems. Then I heard "...carefully remove the soil from wedge shaped
sections...disturb the roots as little as possible..."

What a difference.

Hope this is helpful...have a good day.

Pat

Dez of the Arizona High Dezert, at 4550', Oracle, AZ,
2000' above Tucson Sunset Zone 10 USDA Zone 8
aka: Pat Patterson 'riding off in all directions'

For several years I used the "wedge cutting" proceedure, having
read somewhere
"...cut out pie shaped sections..."

Undoubtedly, I lost some trees as a result of (pie slicing)
messing up the root
systems. Then I heard "...carefully remove the soil from wedge
shaped
sections...disturb the roots as little as possible..."


As with all general statements, this one has some problems. I
have forgotten what tree species prompted the original query, but
for many trees, (and for azaleas, especially), CUTTING out
pie-shaped sections may be exactly what needs doing. Azaleas in
particular grow mats of very fine roots. These mats of hair-size
(or smaller) rootlets do not survive more than a year or two.
After they die, they leave an almost impenetrable (to water) mass
of dead material behind. This MUST be removed when repotting and
replaced with soil. If a few larger roots go too, that won't
hurt. At the time of "minor" repotting, the best way to do this
is to cut out wedges that extend to the base of the tree, then
re-fill those spaces with appropriate soil. (For major
repotting -- about every third time -- all of the fine roots
should be removed. This means total bare root.) The azalea will
quickly grow a new mass of hair-sized roots.

A major reason for repotting (of any bonsai) is to cut back large
roots that have filled the pot. You can't do that without
"disturbing" the roots. The disturbance, in fact, _promotes_ the
regrowth of the finer roots that do all the work and lead to a
healthy tree. Of course, you don't _indiscriminately_ cut out a
wedge every 33 1/3 degrees around the perimeter of the root ball.
You look first. You often _do_ decide that one of the wedges
should be made where that big, old root (and therefore fairly
useless as a "root") is, but just as often, you will pick places
_between_ larger roots to provide space for the smaller roots
you hope will grow from them.

So, giving your tree an occasional "wedgie" is often the right
thing to do.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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At 06:04 AM 5/20/03 +0000, Pat Patterson wrote:

pie shaped wedges...you should remove the soil from wedge shaped
sections...should NOT cut out a wedge, roots and all.

one sided growth...probably caused by your "pie" slicing...if you cut
through the roots.

For several years I used the "wedge cutting" proceedure, having read somewhere
"...cut out pie shaped sections..."

Undoubtedly, I lost some trees as a result of (pie slicing) messing up the
root
systems. Then I heard "...carefully remove the soil from wedge shaped
sections...disturb the roots as little as possible..."

What a difference.

Pat

This makes a whole lot of sense. I was never a believer of the pie system,
preferring to actually getting into the rootball to see what was going on.
In nearly all cases, I remove all the soil, but do it in winter so there is
a very long recovery period.

If roots are very tangled and particularly if they are spiraling, removing
wedges of roots will indiscriminately cut through a mass of good
functioning roots. The only survivors will be the portion originating in a
particular wedge. The rest of the root length will lie dead and buried in
every other remaining wedge.



Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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The only tree I've ever heard for which the pie wedge root removal is recommended is
the azalea. Azaleas have such a thick maize of fine roots that this system can be
feasible. Even then, you need to respect the surface roots and not include
significant surface rootage in this method.
Alan Walker, Lake Charles, LA, USA
http://LCBSBonsai.org http://bonsai-bci.com
=================================
At 06:04 AM 5/20/03 +0000, Pat Patterson wrote:
pie shaped wedges...you should remove the soil from wedge shaped
sections...should NOT cut out a wedge, roots and all.
one sided growth...probably caused by your "pie" slicing...if you cut
through the roots.
For several years I used the "wedge cutting" procedure, having read somewhere
"...cut out pie shaped sections..."
Undoubtedly, I lost some trees as a result of (pie slicing) messing up the
root systems. Then I heard "...carefully remove the soil from wedge shaped
sections...disturb the roots as little as possible..."
What a difference.
==============
Brent Walston wrote:
Pat
This makes a whole lot of sense. I was never a believer of the pie system,
preferring to actually getting into the root ball to see what was going on.
In nearly all cases, I remove all the soil, but do it in winter so there is
a very long recovery period.

If roots are very tangled and particularly if they are spiraling, removing
wedges of roots will indiscriminately cut through a mass of good
functioning roots. The only survivors will be the portion originating in a
particular wedge. The rest of the root length will lie dead and buried in
every other remaining wedge.
Brent in Northern California
Evergreen Gardenworks USDA Zone 8 Sunset Zone 14

http://www.EvergreenGardenworks.com

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DearIBC'ers
Following up on Jim's description of wedge cuts: about five years ago I
purchased an Azalea from a Nursery, the first time I took it out of its
Nursery pot, after the flowers had died, I had a solid mass. I sawed
one third of the bottom mass, then cut three pie shapes out of the root
ball. I planted it in the ground with a ceramic tile underneath it.
The second year I dug it up after the flowering period, cut another
third of the root ball and cut three more pie shapes.I performed the
same process in the Third year. After the fourth year, I was able to
pot it into a ceramic pot. The following year while it was flowering, it
was stolen! :-(

But, in my experience the pie cuts did work along with the reduction of
the total root ball!

Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7
http://bmee.net/rosner
http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja...d=00000068 48


Jim Lewis wrote:

As with all general statements, this one has some problems. I
have forgotten what tree species prompted the original query, but
for many trees, (and for azaleas, especially), CUTTING out
pie-shaped sections may be exactly what needs doing. Azaleas in
particular grow mats of very fine roots. These mats of hair-size
(or smaller) rootlets do not survive more than a year or two.
After they die, they leave an almost impenetrable (to water) mass
of dead material behind. This MUST be removed when repotting and
replaced with soil. If a few larger roots go too, that won't
hurt. At the time of "minor" repotting, the best way to do this
is to cut out wedges that extend to the base of the tree, then
re-fill those spaces with appropriate soil. (For major
repotting -- about every third time -- all of the fine roots
should be removed. This means total bare root.) The azalea will
quickly grow a new mass of hair-sized roots.

A major reason for repotting (of any bonsai) is to cut back large
roots that have filled the pot. You can't do that without
"disturbing" the roots. The disturbance, in fact, _promotes_ the
regrowth of the finer roots that do all the work and lead to a
healthy tree. Of course, you don't _indiscriminately_ cut out a
wedge every 33 1/3 degrees around the perimeter of the root ball.
You look first. You often _do_ decide that one of the wedges
should be made where that big, old root (and therefore fairly
useless as a "root") is, but just as often, you will pick places
_between_ larger roots to provide space for the smaller roots
you hope will grow from them.

So, giving your tree an occasional "wedgie" is often the right
thing to do.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden





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