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#1
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
There's a rather silly discussion on the gallery about a bonsai
event somewhere that is having a "Yamadori Boxwood" workshop. Someone mocked that that meant they were all collected (presumably in the wild) from the mountains. This seemed to me to be another example of people insisting that the shades of meaning of a word don't change over time (and geography). I've seen more and more often the use of "yamadori" as merely a "collected" tree, since comparatively few bonsai now are collected in "mountains." Certainly none of mine are, few (if any) of Gary Marchall's, etc. I think I even read somewhere -- and quite recently, too -- that even the Japanese aren't kowtowing to the _exact_ meaning of "yamadori" any more and use the term for a collected tree. The expanded usage makes sense for both here and there (and particularly for boxwood ;-) which are mostly collected from old hedges, though I suppose the plant may still exist in the wild somewhere in Asia. (Heck, they exist in the wild here -- having escaped from old farmsteads to crop up in the north Florida woods.) Thoughts? Purists vs. loose constructionists. Liberals (thinkers ;-) versus conservatives (if it wasn't done that way yesterday it ain't right! ;-). Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase 'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#2
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
At 08:13 AM 9/15/2003 -0400, Jim Lewis wrote:
There's a rather silly discussion on the gallery about a bonsai event somewhere that is having a "Yamadori Boxwood" workshop. Someone mocked that that meant they were all collected (presumably in the wild) from the mountains. This seemed to me to be another example of people insisting that the shades of meaning of a word don't change over time (and geography). I've seen more and more often the use of "yamadori" as merely a "collected" tree, since comparatively few bonsai now are collected in "mountains." Certainly none of mine are, few (if any) of Gary Marchall's, etc. I think I even read somewhere -- and quite recently, too -- that even the Japanese aren't kowtowing to the _exact_ meaning of "yamadori" any more and use the term for a collected tree. The expanded usage makes sense for both here and there (and particularly for boxwood ;-) which are mostly collected from old hedges, though I suppose the plant may still exist in the wild somewhere in Asia. (Heck, they exist in the wild here -- having escaped from old farmsteads to crop up in the north Florida woods.) Thoughts? Purists vs. loose constructionists. Liberals (thinkers ;-) versus conservatives (if it wasn't done that way yesterday it ain't right! ;-). I did something on this for Bonsai Today On Line. Yama means picked, dori means mountain. Since there are no plants left in the mountains usage of the word changed to mean collected from the wild. This is a usage known only in bonsai circles. So anything ever cultivated even allowed to grow wild is not yamadori by the experts even today. Yamadori now seems to mean styled by nature. Any person learning Japanese as a second language or being born here would not get this meaning. Japanese has many subtle variations known by various classes of people. I worked at a company where I purchased business cards in English and Japanese for our 35 year old CEO. The Japanese type setter chose what he thought the proper title, but is also meant honored grandfather. After that we had a well bred very proper educated Japanese woman do all our title translations. Kitsune Miko ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#3
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
I think I even read somewhere -- and quite recently, too -- that even the Japanese aren't kowtowing to the _exact_ meaning of "yamadori" any more and use the term for a collected tree. The expanded usage makes sense for both here and there (and particularly for boxwood ;-) which are mostly collected from old hedges, though I suppose the plant may still exist in the wild somewhere in Asia. (Heck, they exist in the wild here -- having escaped from old farmsteads to crop up in the north Florida woods.) snip I did something on this for Bonsai Today On Line. Prolly where I read it. ;-) Yama means picked, dori means mountain. Since there are no plants left in the mountains usage of the word changed to mean collected from the wild. This is a usage known only in bonsai circles. So anything ever cultivated even allowed to grow wild is not yamadori by the experts even today. Yamadori now seems to mean styled by nature. Any person learning Japanese as a second language or being born here would not get this meaning. Japanese has many subtle variations known by various classes of people. I worked at a company where I purchased business cards in English and Japanese for our 35 year old CEO. The Japanese type setter chose what he thought the proper title, but is also meant honored grandfather. After that we had a well bred very proper educated Japanese woman do all our title translations. Kitsune Miko Of course, then there's Humpty Dumpty . . . "When _I_ use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean --neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you _can_ make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master." ;-) Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase 'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#4
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
Kitsune Miko wrote:
snip I did something on this for Bonsai Today On Line. Yama means picked, dori means mountain. Since there are no plants left in the mountains usage of the word changed to mean collected from the wild. This is a usage known only in bonsai circles. So anything ever cultivated even allowed to grow wild is not yamadori by the experts even today. Yamadori now seems to mean styled by nature. snip Kitsune Miko At the risk of contradicting someone who uses a Japanese name as a pseudonym ;0}, I am quite sure that it is the other way around--this I got from two native Japanese. "Yama" means "mountain." "Dori" is from the Japanese verb "to take." Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#5
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
"Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:001101c37b97$e5b18380$72112cc7@pavilion... Of course, then there's Humpty Dumpty . . . "When _I_ use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean --neither more nor less." But... When _I_ say "yamadori", do _you_ know what I mean? ;-) |
#6
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
Jim Lewis wrote:
There's a rather silly discussion on the gallery about a bonsai event somewhere that is having a "Yamadori Boxwood" workshop. Someone mocked that that meant they were all collected (presumably in the wild) from the mountains. This seemed to me to be another example of people insisting that the shades of meaning of a word don't change over time (and geography). snip Thoughts? Purists vs. loose constructionists. Liberals (thinkers ;-) versus conservatives (if it wasn't done that way yesterday it ain't right! ;-). Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase 'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman I guess I'm on the liberal end of the discussion. The only languages that don't evolve are dead languages. There are many examples in English of changes in word usage. This occurs particularly when new technology introduces concepts into a culture which didn't exist before. One example is the term used for operating an automobile--"drive," used originally to refer to the way in which animals are led. Another automobile-related term is the term used in many states on rental cars and limos--"livery," referring originally to the rental of horses and/or wagons. In terms of collected trees, I have no problem using "yamadori" to refer to any collected tree. I did a search in the archives for the term "suburban yamadori" which I've used to refer to collected shrubs from people's yards, and found that the earliest use of that term on the list is by David Bockman in 2000. Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#7
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
I'm glad Craig said it first, but I was about to jump in. Having lived in
Japan in the middle 1950s, I still remember a little of the language, and yama is a word that sticks, as in Fuji Yama. Ed Castillo (wondering how hard this week's hurricane will hit the East Coast) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Cowing" To: Sent: Monday, September 15, 2003 8:01 AM Subject: [IBC] "yamadori" boxwood Kitsune Miko wrote: snip Yama means picked, dori means mountain. Kitsune Miko At the risk of contradicting someone who uses a Japanese name as a pseudonym ;0}, I am quite sure that it is the other way around--this I got from two native Japanese. "Yama" means "mountain." "Dori" is from the Japanese verb "to take." Craig Cowing NY Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#8
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
EDMUND L CASTILLO wrote:
snip Ed Castillo (wondering how hard this week's hurricane will hit the East Coast) Yep. Waiting it out here too. Last thing I heard was that it will hit the NJ coast first tomorrow. I already have plans to bring trees inside and stash some under their benches if it looks like it wil get nasty. Just have to wait and see. Craig Cowing NY zone 5b/6a Sunset 37 ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#9
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
Kitsune described "yamadori" well and correctly, I think, in her BT Online
journal article: --- BEGIN excerpt from BT Online --- The complexity of Japanese as a language is illustrated in bonsai by many phrases. One example is the use of the words "yamadori". Yama means "mountain" and tori (dori) means "to take". This phrase was used in Japan because any place wild was in the mountains. So all collecting of wild material was from the mountains. Now the mountains in Japan have been largely collected out, so the definition of yamadori as applied to bonsai has changed to mean any tree or shrub that has been shaped by nature until collected. --- END excerpt from BT Online --- She goes on to pose distinct questions on adoption of the term for material that "in an urban setting ... was not likely naturally placed and not totally at the mercy of the elements." This cannot be "yamadori" by the above definition. Kitsune also notes modern Western use of the term "yamadori-style" that emulates 'wildness' through a design imposed upon it. Will the term stick? Good grief, "suburban yamadori!" Dave & Craig toss in another wrinkle. I've assumed _yamadori_ referred to material collected from the wild which had characteristics (e.g., natural dwarfing, weather-enhanced arrangement of elements or similar distinctions) recalling its wild source. I think that "...-dori" also means "placement/arrangement" in Japanese (e.g. _hidori_ is written "day" + "_dori_" and means "schedule"). Is a topped tree from the local woodland _yamadori_ material if indistinguishable from cultivated examples? Would you be disappointed to attend a workshop supplying "collected material" that looked like nursery stock? Best wishes, Chris... C.Cochrane, , Richmond VA USA ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#11
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
In a message dated 9/15/2003 2:05:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: The REAL question here, of course, is why are we English-, French-, German-, Swahili-speaking growers of artistic small trees in pots bothering to use the term "yamadori" when "collected" does as well (or better) and in most cases is much more accurate. The same goes for "nebari" and "shohin" and a whole host of other look-what-I-know terms. There are legitimate and very clear English (or other) equivalents. And . . . then . . . why call is bonsai? );-) Cordially, Michael Persiano The Michael Persiano Bonsai Studio ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#12
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
In a message dated 9/15/2003 2:05:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
writes: The REAL question here, of course, is why are we English-, French-, German-, Swahili-speaking growers of artistic small trees in pots bothering to use the term "yamadori" when "collected" does as well (or better) and in most cases is much more accurate. The same goes for "nebari" and "shohin" and a whole host of other look-what-I-know terms. There are legitimate and very clear English (or other) equivalents. And . . . then . . . why call it bonsai? );-) Good question. Simple reasons are best, though, so. . . . Perhaps it's because there's no good brief synonym. Base, or roots do quite well for nebari. Small or tiny trees do well for shohin or mame. And many other of the impressive words we toss around have good, clear equivalents in whatever language we use. There isn't one for "bonsai." "Miniature/small artistic trees in containers" is a bit long -- and contrived. If there were a useful one- or two-word term that would do, I'd probably be a proponent. ;-) ANYthing to get us away from slavish imitation of Japanese trees (and species) and to doing something that tends toward the more original. Maybe Lenz, perhaps the only one (that I know of) who's really trying (and sometimes successfully) to break the mold, has a good word for our sport. (?) Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words Bother Me." Winnie-the-Pooh ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#13
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis" snip Maybe Lenz, perhaps the only one (that I know of) who's really trying (and sometimes successfully) to break the mold, has a good word for our sport. (?) Jim Lewis ------------------ Actually, Nick just calls it the art of "banzai bush." Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.bonsai365.com/ zone 8, Texas ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#14
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lewis" snip Maybe Lenz, perhaps the only one (that I know of) who's really trying (and sometimes successfully) to break the mold, has a good word for our sport. (?) Jim Lewis ------------------ Actually, Nick just calls it the art of "banzai bush." Kind regards, Andy Rutledge www.bonsai365.com/ zone 8, Texas ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#15
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[IBC] "yamadori" boxwood
Many, if not all, endeavors, hobbies, professions, etc., have their own
jargon. Learning and using the jargon ensures that everyone who is a part of the activity knows what others are talking about. Why should we resist using the jargon of bonsai, only to replace it with common terms that may or may not clearly describe what we are talking about. Should doctors, engineers, football players, musicians, etc., dump the jargon of their respective endeavors? Or, should participants in the sport of bonsai learn and use the jargon of bonsai? Regards, Roger Snipes Spokane, WA Zone 5, or maybe Zone 6. Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies. Groucho Marx (1895-1977) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Lewis" In a message dated 9/15/2003 2:05:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, writes: The REAL question here, of course, is why are we English-, French-, German-, Swahili-speaking growers of artistic small trees in pots bothering to use the term "yamadori" when "collected" does as well (or better) and in most cases is much more accurate. The same goes for "nebari" and "shohin" and a whole host of other look-what-I-know terms. There are legitimate and very clear English (or other) equivalents. And . . . then . . . why call it bonsai? );-) Good question. Simple reasons are best, though, so. . . . Perhaps it's because there's no good brief synonym. ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Dale Cochoy++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
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