Jim Elbrecht wrote:
Just some thoughts-- If I'm wrong Cereus will correct me.g I'm
convinced that my current garden is on an ancient beach site. [50
feet away is pure clay with a rubble topping, so I'm not complaining]

"Jim Carlock" wrote:


Hello,

I will start by saying that I've had success with Corn, Basil,
and Cucumbers.


That seems to indicate that you manage to keep water in there for the
plants. That's the first trick with sand. You're also growing
things that take a good dose of Nitrogen [corn & basil] and some that
depend more on Potassium. [cukes]



I've got radishes growing but they never looked like radishes...


Your root crops seem to be suffering. They need a high am mount of
phosphorous. My garden is the same--- the only way I've ever had
any decent carrots, beets or radishes was to side dress those rows
with a fertilizer high in phosphorous. [the middle number in the
fertilizer name-- I usually end up with 10-60-10 because that's what
they carry at the local nursery.]

I give the whole garden a dose in the spring, but then I just
concentrate of ph & heavy mulching. I use all my grass clipping
green on my tomatoes and peppers. Then I side-dress my root crops
every couple weeks with the 10-60-10.

Bring some soil samples to your local Co-operative Extension [or
whatever the county agriculture people are called in your state] and
have it tested.


They've been growing for over 4
months now and they are pretty plants with bright red
stems, nice looking leaves. Can a radish be eaten months
after it's 30 day due date?


Probably pretty tough-- but it won't hurt you.

I've got some carrots growing but the carrots look like
they are still two months from maturing. The leaves are
growing upwards, are about 6 inches. The roots aren't
developing very much at the moment.

I've planted some cabbage but the cabbage doesn't seem
to be taking to well.


I never grew cabbage, but I wonder if that could be Phosphorous, too--
don't they have a long taproot?


The sandy soil is slowly turning into a better (not so sandy)
soil, I'm thinking it'll take another year though before it's fully
where it should be.

-snip-

There's been a garden on my garden site for 50 years. [with a couple
4-5 year breaks] I add a couple tons of organic matter every
year. It is amazing how much the sand can swallow.

Jim

I'm in central Florida and also have a sand garden. Jim, are you serious
about the ton of organic matter or was that just a way of saying "lots
an lots"? And if you really did mean a ton, how big a space is it?

I generally have pretty good luck in fall and spring if I add lots of
compost. I grow a variety of leafy greens, some beans, tomatoes and my
zucchini is doing well this year. Summer is just too hot to grow much (a
local friend has good luck with black eyed peas). I sometimes think that
the mustards will grow in beach sand.

David

Jim Elbrecht wrote:
Just some thoughts-- If I'm wrong Cereus will correct me.g I'm
convinced that my current garden is on an ancient beach site. [50
feet away is pure clay with a rubble topping, so I'm not complaining]

"Jim Carlock" wrote:


Hello,

I will start by saying that I've had success with Corn, Basil,
and Cucumbers.


That seems to indicate that you manage to keep water in there for the
plants. That's the first trick with sand. You're also growing
things that take a good dose of Nitrogen [corn & basil] and some that
depend more on Potassium. [cukes]



I've got radishes growing but they never looked like radishes...


Your root crops seem to be suffering. They need a high am mount of
phosphorous. My garden is the same--- the only way I've ever had
any decent carrots, beets or radishes was to side dress those rows
with a fertilizer high in phosphorous. [the middle number in the
fertilizer name-- I usually end up with 10-60-10 because that's what
they carry at the local nursery.]

I give the whole garden a dose in the spring, but then I just
concentrate of ph & heavy mulching. I use all my grass clipping
green on my tomatoes and peppers. Then I side-dress my root crops
every couple weeks with the 10-60-10.

Bring some soil samples to your local Co-operative Extension [or
whatever the county agriculture people are called in your state] and
have it tested.


They've been growing for over 4
months now and they are pretty plants with bright red
stems, nice looking leaves. Can a radish be eaten months
after it's 30 day due date?


Probably pretty tough-- but it won't hurt you.

I've got some carrots growing but the carrots look like
they are still two months from maturing. The leaves are
growing upwards, are about 6 inches. The roots aren't
developing very much at the moment.

I've planted some cabbage but the cabbage doesn't seem
to be taking to well.


I never grew cabbage, but I wonder if that could be Phosphorous, too--
don't they have a long taproot?


The sandy soil is slowly turning into a better (not so sandy)
soil, I'm thinking it'll take another year though before it's fully
where it should be.

-snip-

There's been a garden on my garden site for 50 years. [with a couple
4-5 year breaks] I add a couple tons of organic matter every
year. It is amazing how much the sand can swallow.

Jim

I'm in central Florida and also have a sand garden. Jim, are you serious
about the ton of organic matter or was that just a way of saying "lots
an lots"? And if you really did mean a ton, how big a space is it?

I generally have pretty good luck in fall and spring if I add lots of
compost. I grow a variety of leafy greens, some beans, tomatoes and my
zucchini is doing well this year. Summer is just too hot to grow much (a
local friend has good luck with black eyed peas). I sometimes think that
the mustards will grow in beach sand.

David

"EDUPSHAW" wrote:
I looked up cucumbers in one of my trusty Rodale "How To's"
and it seems that they like acidic soils (5.0-6.8) so I don't think
that coffee grounds hurt your plants. You do need to give them
lots of Phosphate and Potasium.

How wet is your soil? Could your leaf browning be caused
by fungus? That would start with round spots and soft spots
on fruit.

The soil is sand for the most part that has been turned and
mixed with some dead dried out leaves, some dead dried
grass clippings, some dead dried oak leaves, a variety of other
leaves and stems. As sand it drains very well. The other stuff
I've mixed in seems to keep it from draining so quickly.

Someone may correct me but I believe "Curciforms" are
leafy plants with opposing leaves. The ones that we keep
hearing are good for us: Spinach, Collards, Turnips,
Brussle Sprouts, etc

Cruciform according to the definition at dictionary.com:
(Bot.) having four parts arranged in the form of a cross.

I'm thinking along the lines of maybe Spanish Needle, where
there are three leaves on a stem. I don't know. Maybe
someone else can help out.

While going through things, I found the word cucurbit...

And it is possible, based that what I thought were Asian
LadyBugs are really cucurbit beetles (spotted cucumber
beetles). The leaves started to dry out and wilt. I'm pretty
sure some of the ladybugs I saw were actual ladybugs. But
there were quite a few bugs out there. I watched some as
they developed through their larva stages. I've spent the
last hour or so looking up stuff on cucurbit, cruciform and
all and I have to give up on it and get some other things
done. Perhaps there was a combination of ladybugs and
spotted cucumber beetles.

I should have took some pictures of the bugs. :-)

--
Jim Carlock
Post replies to newsgroup.

"EDUPSHAW" wrote:
I looked up cucumbers in one of my trusty Rodale "How To's"
and it seems that they like acidic soils (5.0-6.8) so I don't think
that coffee grounds hurt your plants. You do need to give them
lots of Phosphate and Potasium.

How wet is your soil? Could your leaf browning be caused
by fungus? That would start with round spots and soft spots
on fruit.

The soil is sand for the most part that has been turned and
mixed with some dead dried out leaves, some dead dried
grass clippings, some dead dried oak leaves, a variety of other
leaves and stems. As sand it drains very well. The other stuff
I've mixed in seems to keep it from draining so quickly.

Someone may correct me but I believe "Curciforms" are
leafy plants with opposing leaves. The ones that we keep
hearing are good for us: Spinach, Collards, Turnips,
Brussle Sprouts, etc

Cruciform according to the definition at dictionary.com:
(Bot.) having four parts arranged in the form of a cross.

I'm thinking along the lines of maybe Spanish Needle, where
there are three leaves on a stem. I don't know. Maybe
someone else can help out.

While going through things, I found the word cucurbit...

And it is possible, based that what I thought were Asian
LadyBugs are really cucurbit beetles (spotted cucumber
beetles). The leaves started to dry out and wilt. I'm pretty
sure some of the ladybugs I saw were actual ladybugs. But
there were quite a few bugs out there. I watched some as
they developed through their larva stages. I've spent the
last hour or so looking up stuff on cucurbit, cruciform and
all and I have to give up on it and get some other things
done. Perhaps there was a combination of ladybugs and
spotted cucumber beetles.

I should have took some pictures of the bugs. :-)

--
Jim Carlock
Post replies to newsgroup.

"Steve" wrote in message ...:
Hi Jim,
The radishes sound doomed. Have they bolted (produced
flowers)? If so, the seed pods that develop are edible.

No flowers yet.

Cabbage really does better in a heavy soil.
The split between what grows and what doesn't my not all
be due to the sand. It may be a division between what
grows well in hot weather and what does better in a cool
climate. Possible?

Very possible. Alot of stuff doesn't like the heat of summer
here.

To improve the soil, about all you can do is keep adding
lots of organic material. It will probably take more than you
think.

Funny... I cleaned out the gutters last week, a couple years ago
a tree started to grow in the gutter. I think I found alot of good
stuff in the gutters. The tree that started growing in the gutter is
now growing on the side of the house, is about 14 feet tall.

--
Jim Carlock
Post replies to newsgroup.

"Steve" wrote in message ...:
Hi Jim,
The radishes sound doomed. Have they bolted (produced
flowers)? If so, the seed pods that develop are edible.

No flowers yet.

Cabbage really does better in a heavy soil.
The split between what grows and what doesn't my not all
be due to the sand. It may be a division between what
grows well in hot weather and what does better in a cool
climate. Possible?

Very possible. Alot of stuff doesn't like the heat of summer
here.

To improve the soil, about all you can do is keep adding
lots of organic material. It will probably take more than you
think.

Funny... I cleaned out the gutters last week, a couple years ago
a tree started to grow in the gutter. I think I found alot of good
stuff in the gutters. The tree that started growing in the gutter is
now growing on the side of the house, is about 14 feet tall.

--
Jim Carlock
Post replies to newsgroup.

"Steve" wrote in message ...:
Hi Jim,
The radishes sound doomed. Have they bolted (produced
flowers)? If so, the seed pods that develop are edible.

No flowers yet.

Cabbage really does better in a heavy soil.
The split between what grows and what doesn't my not all
be due to the sand. It may be a division between what
grows well in hot weather and what does better in a cool
climate. Possible?

Very possible. Alot of stuff doesn't like the heat of summer
here.

To improve the soil, about all you can do is keep adding
lots of organic material. It will probably take more than you
think.

Funny... I cleaned out the gutters last week, a couple years ago
a tree started to grow in the gutter. I think I found alot of good
stuff in the gutters. The tree that started growing in the gutter is
now growing on the side of the house, is about 14 feet tall.

--
Jim Carlock
Post replies to newsgroup.

Jim Carlock said:

While going through things, I found the word cucurbit...

And it is possible, based that what I thought were Asian
LadyBugs are really cucurbit beetles (spotted cucumber
beetles). The leaves started to dry out and wilt. I'm pretty
sure some of the ladybugs I saw were actual ladybugs. But
there were quite a few bugs out there.

I've rarely seen ladybugs on my cucurbits (cucumbers, melons, squash).
But I *always* see cucumber beetles. They can spread diseases such as
bacterial wilt and mosaic virus.

I grow my cucumbers in a screened box, to exclude the cucumber beetles,
which means I only grow the types that set fruit without pollination. Otherwise
the bacterial wilt will wipe them out.

My soil is really sandy, too. My main fertilizers are alfalfa pellets and
compost made with shredded leaves and large amounts of coffee grounds.
That works for me because my soil test revealed abundant amounts of
phosphorous but very limited amounts of potassium. Phosphorous tends
to stick around in soils, but potassium leaches. Coffee grounds and alfalfa
add nitrogen and potassium but not so much phosphorous.

Youshould consider having your soil tested to find out what your critical
nutrients might be...

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(attributed to Don Marti)

Jim Carlock said:

While going through things, I found the word cucurbit...

And it is possible, based that what I thought were Asian
LadyBugs are really cucurbit beetles (spotted cucumber
beetles). The leaves started to dry out and wilt. I'm pretty
sure some of the ladybugs I saw were actual ladybugs. But
there were quite a few bugs out there.

I've rarely seen ladybugs on my cucurbits (cucumbers, melons, squash).
But I *always* see cucumber beetles. They can spread diseases such as
bacterial wilt and mosaic virus.

I grow my cucumbers in a screened box, to exclude the cucumber beetles,
which means I only grow the types that set fruit without pollination. Otherwise
the bacterial wilt will wipe them out.

My soil is really sandy, too. My main fertilizers are alfalfa pellets and
compost made with shredded leaves and large amounts of coffee grounds.
That works for me because my soil test revealed abundant amounts of
phosphorous but very limited amounts of potassium. Phosphorous tends
to stick around in soils, but potassium leaches. Coffee grounds and alfalfa
add nitrogen and potassium but not so much phosphorous.

Youshould consider having your soil tested to find out what your critical
nutrients might be...

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(attributed to Don Marti)

Jim Carlock said:

While going through things, I found the word cucurbit...

And it is possible, based that what I thought were Asian
LadyBugs are really cucurbit beetles (spotted cucumber
beetles). The leaves started to dry out and wilt. I'm pretty
sure some of the ladybugs I saw were actual ladybugs. But
there were quite a few bugs out there.

I've rarely seen ladybugs on my cucurbits (cucumbers, melons, squash).
But I *always* see cucumber beetles. They can spread diseases such as
bacterial wilt and mosaic virus.

I grow my cucumbers in a screened box, to exclude the cucumber beetles,
which means I only grow the types that set fruit without pollination. Otherwise
the bacterial wilt will wipe them out.

My soil is really sandy, too. My main fertilizers are alfalfa pellets and
compost made with shredded leaves and large amounts of coffee grounds.
That works for me because my soil test revealed abundant amounts of
phosphorous but very limited amounts of potassium. Phosphorous tends
to stick around in soils, but potassium leaches. Coffee grounds and alfalfa
add nitrogen and potassium but not so much phosphorous.

Youshould consider having your soil tested to find out what your critical
nutrients might be...

--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(attributed to Don Marti)

David wrote:

-snip-
I'm in central Florida and also have a sand garden. Jim, are you serious
about the ton of organic matter or was that just a way of saying "lots
an lots"? And if you really did mean a ton, how big a space is it?

It was a wild-ass guess. The garden has shrunk to about 50 by 50 as
I get older.

I'll try to estimate a little closer--
I mow about once a week from June through August I mow my lawn & bag
my grass. - To keep the math simple and guess that I probably miss a
couple weeks we'll call it 10 mowings. I empty the bag 6-8 times
each mowing, so that's 60-80 bags of grass. 50 lbs per bag [another
wild guess] would give me 3-4000 pounds of grass. I probably add a
few hundred pounds of maple, ash & oak leaves to that in the fall.

I've been doing this since 1986 [with a couple years off for illness].
The previous owner had a garden on this spot since the 50's at least &
he said he took most of the clippings from his side-business [he and
his sons mowed a few lawns] and turned them directly into the soil.

Still, there is just a very subtle difference between my garden and
the mason's sand that I order from the concrete vendor.


I generally have pretty good luck in fall and spring if I add lots of
compost. I grow a variety of leafy greens, some beans, tomatoes and my
zucchini is doing well this year. Summer is just too hot to grow much (a
local friend has good luck with black eyed peas).

A least I don't often have heat problems. Upstate NY--- usually my
neighbors complain about cold & wet ruining their gardens. [most of
the county is clay-- my garden is an oddity] The sand works well for
cold & wet.

I sometimes think that the mustards will grow in beach sand.

I should try to grow more of them. My kids like broccoli & cabbage.

My biggest weeds are purslane, lamb's quarters and garlic mustard.
When the purslane starts disappearing I know I'm making some
headway--- but it usually comes back with vigor in a couple years.
[at least it's tastey] The garlic mustard [a brassicaceae] does
indeed persist anywhere I neglect for more than a couple weeks.

Jim

David wrote:

-snip-
I'm in central Florida and also have a sand garden. Jim, are you serious
about the ton of organic matter or was that just a way of saying "lots
an lots"? And if you really did mean a ton, how big a space is it?

It was a wild-ass guess. The garden has shrunk to about 50 by 50 as
I get older.

I'll try to estimate a little closer--
I mow about once a week from June through August I mow my lawn & bag
my grass. - To keep the math simple and guess that I probably miss a
couple weeks we'll call it 10 mowings. I empty the bag 6-8 times
each mowing, so that's 60-80 bags of grass. 50 lbs per bag [another
wild guess] would give me 3-4000 pounds of grass. I probably add a
few hundred pounds of maple, ash & oak leaves to that in the fall.

I've been doing this since 1986 [with a couple years off for illness].
The previous owner had a garden on this spot since the 50's at least &
he said he took most of the clippings from his side-business [he and
his sons mowed a few lawns] and turned them directly into the soil.

Still, there is just a very subtle difference between my garden and
the mason's sand that I order from the concrete vendor.


I generally have pretty good luck in fall and spring if I add lots of
compost. I grow a variety of leafy greens, some beans, tomatoes and my
zucchini is doing well this year. Summer is just too hot to grow much (a
local friend has good luck with black eyed peas).

A least I don't often have heat problems. Upstate NY--- usually my
neighbors complain about cold & wet ruining their gardens. [most of
the county is clay-- my garden is an oddity] The sand works well for
cold & wet.

I sometimes think that the mustards will grow in beach sand.

I should try to grow more of them. My kids like broccoli & cabbage.

My biggest weeds are purslane, lamb's quarters and garlic mustard.
When the purslane starts disappearing I know I'm making some
headway--- but it usually comes back with vigor in a couple years.
[at least it's tastey] The garlic mustard [a brassicaceae] does
indeed persist anywhere I neglect for more than a couple weeks.

Jim

I live south of Tampa and for years tried to have a decent garden.
Composted everything I could find in the neighborhood and after 10 years,
nothing changed. A lot of near pure sand full of root knot nematodes.

After vapam was pulled from the market, the nematodes always won.

I started expirmenting with hydroponics and today after 20 years of
learning, I have an abundance of vegetables year around.
Hydroponics has it's own problems, but it eliminates most of the problems of
growing in this sandy nematode filled soil.

Norm

I live south of Tampa and for years tried to have a decent garden.
Composted everything I could find in the neighborhood and after 10 years,
nothing changed. A lot of near pure sand full of root knot nematodes.

After vapam was pulled from the market, the nematodes always won.

I started expirmenting with hydroponics and today after 20 years of
learning, I have an abundance of vegetables year around.
Hydroponics has it's own problems, but it eliminates most of the problems of
growing in this sandy nematode filled soil.

Norm

"Jim Carlock" writes:
And it is possible, based that what I thought were Asian
LadyBugs are really cucurbit beetles (spotted cucumber
beetles). The leaves started to dry out and wilt. I'm pretty

Here in Australia some ladybirds/ladybugs are attracted to the leaf
of curcubits and potatoes, and they rasp the green layer off the leaf
to leave a transparent patch. You see this small area of damage right
where each bug is located on the leaf, so they are strongly implicated!
I pick the ladybugs off the leaves and squash them. They obviously are
not the helpful ones that eat aphids.

What to plant in sand? I grew the pink sweet potatoes (yams) in
some unimproved very sandy soil, growing them from slips (rooted
lengths of runners). It was difficult to keep the water up to them
during the height of summer, but I covered the soil surface with
leaves and compost and the plants thrived and produced a heavy crop
of delicious tubers. Harvest as needed.
--
John Savage (news address invalid; keep news replies in newsgroup)