Okay I'm switching my 3' 150L(36G) community tank to a planted community
tank and was thinking about shutting down my UGF. I've also an Eheim 2213
running on it and was wondering if it would be a good idea to remove the UGF
plate and lift tubes or simply turn it off and leave it as it is. I don't
expect there to be much crud below it as compared to what I think is below
my 60L platy breeder tank. I've had it set up for a year but whenever I
vaccuum the gravel, there's hardly any muck compared to my smaller tank.
Any advice would be appreciated.
I've 2 3yr angels, a 1.5yr moss barb, 2 1.5yr neon tetras, 3 1yr runnynose
tetras, 2 3yr albino corys and 4 platys in it.

I'm one of those people who don't think you need to remove your UGF to have
a successful planted aquarium. I have UGF's in most of my tanks except the
very smallest. There are some special challenges, though, for example you
can't use iron/fertilizer tabs/spikes.

However, if you're not going to use it, remove it. If you're not pulling
water through it, the crud WILL build up.

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

Tasslehoff wrote in message
...
Okay I'm switching my 3' 150L(36G) community tank to a planted community
tank and was thinking about shutting down my UGF. I've also an Eheim 2213
running on it and was wondering if it would be a good idea to remove the
UGF
plate and lift tubes or simply turn it off and leave it as it is. I don't
expect there to be much crud below it as compared to what I think is below
my 60L platy breeder tank. I've had it set up for a year but whenever I
vaccuum the gravel, there's hardly any muck compared to my smaller tank.
Any advice would be appreciated.
I've 2 3yr angels, a 1.5yr moss barb, 2 1.5yr neon tetras, 3 1yr runnynose
tetras, 2 3yr albino corys and 4 platys in it.

I read an article that said that UG filters could be great for a planted tank,
so long as you plant heavily, and dont disturb the gravel too much. This way you
get a solid root network, so water flow is evenly restricted...IE no dead spots.
If you disturb the gravel you get hi-flow areas, and thus dead area s in other
spots

Rich

kush wrote:

I'm one of those people who don't think you need to remove your UGF to have
a successful planted aquarium. I have UGF's in most of my tanks except the
very smallest. There are some special challenges, though, for example you
can't use iron/fertilizer tabs/spikes.

However, if you're not going to use it, remove it. If you're not pulling
water through it, the crud WILL build up.

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

Tasslehoff wrote in message
...
Okay I'm switching my 3' 150L(36G) community tank to a planted community
tank and was thinking about shutting down my UGF. I've also an Eheim 2213
running on it and was wondering if it would be a good idea to remove the
UGF
plate and lift tubes or simply turn it off and leave it as it is. I don't
expect there to be much crud below it as compared to what I think is below
my 60L platy breeder tank. I've had it set up for a year but whenever I
vaccuum the gravel, there's hardly any muck compared to my smaller tank.
Any advice would be appreciated.
I've 2 3yr angels, a 1.5yr moss barb, 2 1.5yr neon tetras, 3 1yr runnynose
tetras, 2 3yr albino corys and 4 platys in it.

On Tue, 3 Dec 2002 15:23:16 +1100, "Tasslehoff"
wrote:

Okay I'm switching my 3' 150L(36G) community tank to a planted community
tank and was thinking about shutting down my UGF. I've also an Eheim 2213
running on it and was wondering if it would be a good idea to remove the UGF

I personally would remove it.

In a heavily planted tank, there is no good way to vacuum the
substrate. A UGF filter relies on good gravel vacuuming to remove
all the trapped detritus, unlike a power or canister filter that
removes the detritus from the tank, and gets cleaned out regularly.
If you use a UGF filter and never vacuum the substrate, then you are
allowing 100% of the detritus to break down in the tank, releasing the
nitrogen and phosphorus it contains.




Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

On Tue, 03 Dec 2002 15:23:18 -0500, Rich Conley
wrote:

arent nitrogen and phosphorus good for plants?

yes, in controlled amounts. Even in a tank with a power filter,
enough of the waste will break down and release nitrogen and
phosphorus. In fact, even with a power filter, you will often get too
much phosphorus, and sometimes too much nitrogen.

You want the nutrient levels to be controllable. With a UGF that you
can't clean correctly, the levels will not be controllable.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

Chuck, what are you on about?

There are going to be nitrogenous waste products in any closed system,
whether you're using mechanical filtration or UGF. Theoretically, in a
heavily planted, well established tank, a UGF can be more effective at
breaking down waste than mechanical filtration (because the entire gravel
bed is a filter surface). Regardless of the system you're using, if you're
performing regular water changes it shouldn't be an issue.

In any of my tanks over twenty gallons, though, I use UGF AND a canister
filter.

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

Chuck Gadd wrote in message
...
On Tue, 03 Dec 2002 15:23:18 -0500, Rich Conley
wrote:

arent nitrogen and phosphorus good for plants?

yes, in controlled amounts. Even in a tank with a power filter,
enough of the waste will break down and release nitrogen and
phosphorus. In fact, even with a power filter, you will often get too
much phosphorus, and sometimes too much nitrogen.

You want the nutrient levels to be controllable. With a UGF that you
can't clean correctly, the levels will not be controllable.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

That's not really true. Power filter or UGF, it's still a closed system and
waste products remain in the system until broken down by bacteria and
utilized by the plants or removed through water changes (or wrung-out of
filter pads; is that what you mean?). The question is: where does the waste
remain within the closed system?

In a typical mechanical filtration system, yes, you'll remove some material
on filter pads, but a goodly amount of the waste will still sift into the
substrate and what isn't broken down and used by the root systems or
returned into circulation will incrementally contribute to the eventual and
ultimate deterioration of the aquarium environment. With an undergravel
filtration system, the waste products are broken down within the gravel bed,
pulled through under the plates, and substantially more macro and micro
nutrients are returned into circulation where they are more readily utilized
by the plants (most plants) or removed with water changes.

kush

Chuck Gadd wrote in message
...
On Tue, 03 Dec 2002 23:57:04 GMT, "kush" wrote:

Chuck, what are you on about?

There are going to be nitrogenous waste products in any closed system,
whether you're using mechanical filtration or UGF.

But with a UGF, all of the physical detritus will be pulled into the
substrate. The only way you can remove it is by effective gravel
cleaning. If you don't or can't vacuum the gravel, then all of that
solid waste remains in the water to break down.

In a power filter (or canister, or wet/dry) the solid waste is removed
from the system.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

On Wed, 04 Dec 2002 02:30:01 GMT, "kush" wrote:

That's not really true. Power filter or UGF, it's still a closed system and
waste products remain in the system until broken down by bacteria and
utilized by the plants or removed through water changes (or wrung-out of
filter pads; is that what you mean?).

yes, with a power filter or canister filter, you can remove and clean
the media. With a UGF filter, the waste remains in the substrate
until it completely breaks down.

To work properly, a UGF is meant to be vacuumed very well, very
regularly. In a heavily planted tank, this isn't possible, so all
the waste remains in the tank until it completely breaks down.

Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

What can I say? I've been doing it for twenty-odd years with satisfactory
results.

kush

Chuck Gadd wrote in message
...
On Wed, 04 Dec 2002 02:30:01 GMT, "kush" wrote:

That's not really true. Power filter or UGF, it's still a closed system
and
waste products remain in the system until broken down by bacteria and
utilized by the plants or removed through water changes (or wrung-out of
filter pads; is that what you mean?).

yes, with a power filter or canister filter, you can remove and clean
the media. With a UGF filter, the waste remains in the substrate
until it completely breaks down.

To work properly, a UGF is meant to be vacuumed very well, very
regularly. In a heavily planted tank, this isn't possible, so all
the waste remains in the tank until it completely breaks down.

Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

I hate to barge in here...

The original question was:

I've also an Eheim 2213running on it and was wondering if it would be a good idea to remove the UGFplate and lift tubes or simply turn it off and leave it as it is.

I would think that turning it off and leaving it in might be a viable
option.

Doing so would make it easy to root feed that's for sure!

Regards,

Ed

Ah. Sorry. Actually, I did address this early on. I would recommend
removing the filter plates if the risers aren't going to be pulling. I
should expect that leaving them in will eventually result in a vast cavern
of toxic crud.

kush

Ed wrote in message
...
I hate to barge in here...

The original question was:

I've also an Eheim 2213running on it and was wondering if it would be a
good idea to remove the UGFplate and lift tubes or simply turn it off and
leave it as it is.

I would think that turning it off and leaving it in might be a viable
option.

Doing so would make it easy to root feed that's for sure!

Regards,

Ed

Kush,

And what would build up that the plants couldn't use? I would think
that nothing would build up below an UGF plate that would not build up
in substrate.

In any case it would be easy to "flush out" the space beneath the
plate if one modified the risers to allow for that.

I know what I am saying is not conventional but I don't think it would
be that much of a problem should he decide to leave the UGF in place.

Leaving in the UGF would definitely present it's own set of problems
but I think they could easily be overcome. Almost certainly so if he
were to densly plant the tank.

If I had a choice I would remove the UFG( because of conventional
wisdom) but that may not be feasible in all circumstances.

Ed



On Wed, 04 Dec 2002 15:30:13 GMT, "kush" wrote:

Ah. Sorry. Actually, I did address this early on. I would recommend
removing the filter plates if the risers aren't going to be pulling. I
should expect that leaving them in will eventually result in a vast cavern
of toxic crud.

kush

Ed wrote in message
.. .
I hate to barge in here...

The original question was:

I've also an Eheim 2213running on it and was wondering if it would be a
good idea to remove the UGFplate and lift tubes or simply turn it off and
leave it as it is.

I would think that turning it off and leaving it in might be a viable
option.

Doing so would make it easy to root feed that's for sure!

Regards,

Ed

Ed wrote...

And what would build up that the plants couldn't use?

Everything the plants couldn't use.

In any case it would be easy to "flush out" the space beneath the
plate if one modified the risers to allow for that.

Sure. That would work. But if the risers are there, and the plates are
there, why not use them? I use both UGF and mechanical filtration on my big
tanks. Works great. I recommend it.

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

On Wed, 04 Dec 2002 16:09:30 GMT, "kush" wrote:


Ed wrote...

And what would build up that the plants couldn't use?

Everything the plants couldn't use.


As it does in the substrate...


In any case it would be easy to "flush out" the space beneath the
plate if one modified the risers to allow for that.

Sure. That would work. But if the risers are there, and the plates are
there, why not use them? I use both UGF and mechanical filtration on my big
tanks. Works great. I recommend it.


I'm sorry but I'll have to disagree on using the UGF. Personally I
would not use the UGF plates as a filter as I would not want to pass
water through them (intentionally). Instead I would use other
filtration.

IMO leaving the UGF plates static would be less of a hassle than using
them as a filter or removing them outright.

Ed


kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

Mmmmmmmmmmm. I agree with everything Leigh says, but, but, but...

Using an undergravel filter simply requires a different system of aquarium
maintenance, different skills and different expectations.

Instead of using bubbles you use powerheads aimed so as not to disrupt the
surface. If you want to grow serious root feeders like swords, you confine
them where you can use root tabs/spikes. On the other hand, stem plants
which root from the nodes perform (IME) immeasurably better in a UGF
system - stem rot just doesn't happen. I've found that equilibrium is
easier to achieve and can be maintained for years longer than in a
conventional setup.

OK, horse flogged, I'm done.

kush

LeighMo wrote in message
...
If I had a choice I would remove the UFG( because of conventional
wisdom) but that may not be feasible in all circumstances.

I agree. In fact, I did it. I had a UGF in my tank for years, but
removed it
when I decided to replace the substrate with Flourite. I had a power
filter on
the tank, too, so removing the UGF was no big deal.

FWIW, I never had a problem with nitrate building up, even without a lot
of
plants. Nevertheless, I don't recommend UGFs with planted tanks. Don't
get me
wrong, a lot of people use them and it's fine -- but there are a few
reasons
why UGFs aren't ideal for planted tanks.

1) The problem of substrate fertilizer has already been mentioned. You
can do
without it, but IME there are some plants that just do better with heavy
substrate fertilization.

2) Rearranging plants becomes difficult with UGFs. The plants' roots
entwine
around the filter plate and grow for feet over and underneath it.
Removing or
moving plants becomes a huge PITA.

3) Vacuuming, IMO, isn't a problem. With a properly run UGF, the crud
should
never clog the gravel, and you don't need to vacuum it (though you should
vacuum underneath the plates every once in awhile). However, the ideal
gravel
size for a UGF is larger than is ideal for plants. Seachem says Flourite
can
be used with UGFs, but IME, it's too fine. The UGF was designed for
largish
gravel -- pea-sized or bigger. This is much coarser than most plants
like.

4) It's not necessary. It's good to have a backup filter, but in a
planted
tank, the plants are your backup filter.





Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/