my grandmother had a really wonderful crabapple at the back of
her garden in western NY. she died last year & now my aunt is
thinking of selling the house.
i want to know if i can get grafts of that tree & grow them
on an old, non-producing apple tree here in NH. if that's
possible, how much time do i have between cutting the scions &
grafting them to my tree? what time of year is best? is it
possible to just root cuttings from the crabapple? i probably
have a year or so timeframe to get this done.
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

In article ,
enigma wrote:

my grandmother had a really wonderful crabapple at the back of
her garden in western NY. she died last year & now my aunt is
thinking of selling the house.
i want to know if i can get grafts of that tree & grow them
on an old, non-producing apple tree here in NH. if that's
possible, how much time do i have between cutting the scions &
grafting them to my tree? what time of year is best? is it
possible to just root cuttings from the crabapple? i probably
have a year or so timeframe to get this done.
lee

Tough Question. I¹d start now and do a few every month till no longer
an option. Crabapples are tough so maybe they will excuse multiple
mistakes. Time ...unless you winter them in the ground , I'd say the
sooner the better. I do not know if apple wood can winter over buried
but if last resort give it a try. Grape hard wood cuttings can.

Bill

Anyone know better practice ?

Just sticking my Bamboo Begonia in water works.

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Bill wrote in

news.net:

In article ,
enigma wrote:

my grandmother had a really wonderful crabapple at the
back of her garden in western NY. she died last year & now
my aunt is thinking of selling the house.
i want to know if i can get grafts of that tree & grow
them
on an old, non-producing apple tree here in NH. if that's
possible, how much time do i have between cutting the
scions & grafting them to my tree? what time of year is
best? is it possible to just root cuttings from the
crabapple? i probably have a year or so timeframe to get
this done.

Tough Question. I¹d start now and do a few every month
till no longer
an option.

it's a 12 hour drive to get there. i don't get there too
often, but i will try if i have to.


Crabapples are tough so maybe they will excuse
multiple mistakes. Time ...unless you winter them in the
ground , I'd say the sooner the better. I do not know if
apple wood can winter over buried but if last resort give
it a try. Grape hard wood cuttings can.

i think i'll try the rooting pots that Lee Valley sells on
one branch, & take some cuttings to try to scion onto my
apple. i'm even willing to buy a young apple tree if that
might take a graft easier.

Anyone know better practice ?

Just sticking my Bamboo Begonia in water works.

i've had that work with roses & willows (but willows will root
in just about anything).i just haven't had much experience
grafting or rooting apples.

lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

In article ,
enigma wrote:

Bill wrote in

news.net:

In article ,
enigma wrote:

my grandmother had a really wonderful crabapple at the
back of her garden in western NY. she died last year & now
my aunt is thinking of selling the house.
i want to know if i can get grafts of that tree & grow
them
on an old, non-producing apple tree here in NH. if that's
possible, how much time do i have between cutting the
scions & grafting them to my tree? what time of year is
best? is it possible to just root cuttings from the
crabapple? i probably have a year or so timeframe to get
this done.

Tough Question. I¹d start now and do a few every month
till no longer
an option.

it's a 12 hour drive to get there. i don't get there too
often, but i will try if i have to.


Crabapples are tough so maybe they will excuse
multiple mistakes. Time ...unless you winter them in the
ground , I'd say the sooner the better. I do not know if
apple wood can winter over buried but if last resort give
it a try. Grape hard wood cuttings can.

i think i'll try the rooting pots that Lee Valley sells on
one branch, & take some cuttings to try to scion onto my
apple. i'm even willing to buy a young apple tree if that
might take a graft easier.

Anyone know better practice ?

Just sticking my Bamboo Begonia in water works.

i've had that work with roses & willows (but willows will root
in just about anything).i just haven't had much experience
grafting or rooting apples.

lee

I like Lee Valley a lot. Have a few of their Japanese Carpenter
knives. Cheap and sharp.

Bill who thinks 12 hour drive with the the way gas is may ask for an
overnight shipment from a relative close by the apple.

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

In article ,
enigma wrote:

i think i'll try the rooting pots that Lee Valley sells on
one branch, & take some cuttings to try to scion onto my
apple. i'm even willing to buy a young apple tree if that
might take a graft easier.

Leaving suckers from rootstock much less the rest of the tree is bad
news for grapes. Instead of pushing through the graft (scion), the
rootstock will preferentially push native buds to the detriment of the
grafted stock. Seems to be the same thing with my dwarf peach trees. I
suggest you get rootstock to graft onto, if it isn't possible to grow it
on its' own roots.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Billy wrote in

ct.net.au:

In article ,
enigma wrote:

i think i'll try the rooting pots that Lee Valley sells
on
one branch, & take some cuttings to try to scion onto my
apple. i'm even willing to buy a young apple tree if that
might take a graft easier.

Leaving suckers from rootstock much less the rest of the
tree is bad news for grapes. Instead of pushing through the
graft (scion), the rootstock will preferentially push
native buds to the detriment of the grafted stock. Seems to
be the same thing with my dwarf peach trees. I suggest you
get rootstock to graft onto, if it isn't possible to grow
it on its' own roots.

apples are commonly grafted though. i almost bought a orchard
in upstate NY, where all the trees in one block had just been
regrafted to the new popular varieties. what they do is cut
off the entire crown & then quarter cut the trunk about an
inch, putting in 4 grafts of the latest fad & covering the
graft with beeswax. that way you have trees bearing full tilt
in one year, rather than waiting 5 years for seedlings to get
established... you can also graft 2 or more varieties on one
trunk to save on space. (the reason i didn't buy was 15 acres
was under high tension powerlines & 50+ acres just behind the
orchard & right next to the spring that supplied the farm's
water had been sold to a developer. looked like a headache in
the making).
at any rate, i know apples can be grafted as scions and can
be bud grafted. i just don't know which is a better idea with
the crabapple. my hopeful rootstock tree is not producing
apples. it had a cedar tree right next to it (which the llamas
kindly ate, stopping the cedar-apple rust issue) & hasn't been
pruned in over 15 years. i'm working on getting it in some
kind of reasonable health currently.
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

In article ,
enigma wrote:

Billy wrote in

ct.net.au:

In article ,
enigma wrote:

i think i'll try the rooting pots that Lee Valley sells
on
one branch, & take some cuttings to try to scion onto my
apple. i'm even willing to buy a young apple tree if that
might take a graft easier.

Leaving suckers from rootstock much less the rest of the
tree is bad news for grapes. Instead of pushing through the
graft (scion), the rootstock will preferentially push
native buds to the detriment of the grafted stock. Seems to
be the same thing with my dwarf peach trees. I suggest you
get rootstock to graft onto, if it isn't possible to grow
it on its' own roots.

apples are commonly grafted though. i almost bought a orchard
in upstate NY, where all the trees in one block had just been
regrafted to the new popular varieties. what they do is cut
off the entire crown & then quarter cut the trunk about an
inch, putting in 4 grafts of the latest fad & covering the
graft with beeswax. that way you have trees bearing full tilt
in one year, rather than waiting 5 years for seedlings to get
established... you can also graft 2 or more varieties on one
trunk to save on space. (the reason i didn't buy was 15 acres
was under high tension powerlines & 50+ acres just behind the
orchard & right next to the spring that supplied the farm's
water had been sold to a developer. looked like a headache in
the making).
at any rate, i know apples can be grafted as scions and can
be bud grafted. i just don't know which is a better idea with
the crabapple. my hopeful rootstock tree is not producing
apples. it had a cedar tree right next to it (which the llamas
kindly ate, stopping the cedar-apple rust issue) & hasn't been
pruned in over 15 years. i'm working on getting it in some
kind of reasonable health currently.
lee

From apples, I know nothing, except that I like to eat them. The
caution I was trying to express is that with grapes you can graft a bud
to an in place root system, but you can't let the rootstock push any
buds or the grafted buds are goners. In viticulture, it's called
t-budding. Instead of planting grafted vines (a rooted cane of root
stock grafted to a cane of fruit wood with cambiums crossing) and
waiting 4 - 5 years for a harvest, you can t-bud (whack the top off an
existing vine and insert buds on either side with cambiums crossing one
another) and have a harvest in 2 years (only year old wood sets fruit).

So I guess that crabapples aren't demonstrably different than other
apples.
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

Billy wrote in

ct.net.au:

So I guess that crabapples aren't demonstrably different
than other apples.

generally much smaller & a lot more acid than eating apples.
the tree i want to propagate has larger than usual fruit (2.5-
3") & some sweet with the acid. it is an excellent cider
apple.
but yeah, crabs are just apples that people don't appreciate


lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

Charlie wrote in
:

Cider?? How 'bout cider of the hard kind? ;-) Seriously,
have you had or made crabapple hard cider?

of course. and peary (pear cider).
not all crabapples though. it's the sugars in the apples that
convert to alcohol, so a blend tends to be best.

My grandmother had large crabapple tree and she made the
best jelly from them, gawd I'd like to have a jar of that
again. IIRC, given I was small then, they were a large
crab and were rather sweet along with the bite. I seem to
remember they were rosish on the top fading to light yellow
on the bottom. Maybe not. Hadn't though of them in years.
It was a large tree, if there is such a thing as a
standard crab. Made darn good projectiles for us
neighborhood kids in a crabapple fight.

that sounds a lot like this tree. all the old trees were
standards, unpruned apples can get over 40'.
my grandmother made the jelly, & sweet pickled crabapple
rings. remember those?


What? You calling Billy an apple? Crabby Appleton!!
(remember him?) But Billy definitely isn't "rotten to the
core".

yup, i remember. nah, Billy's not a crabapple.
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Sun, 13 Apr 2008 22:52:10 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:

Billy wrote in

ct.net.au:

So I guess that crabapples aren't demonstrably different
than other apples.

generally much smaller & a lot more acid than eating apples.
the tree i want to propagate has larger than usual fruit (2.5-
3") & some sweet with the acid. it is an excellent cider
apple.

Cider?? How 'bout cider of the hard kind? ;-) Seriously, have you had
or made crabapple hard cider?

My grandmother had large crabapple tree and she made the best jelly
from them, gawd I'd like to have a jar of that again. IIRC, given I
was small then, they were a large crab and were rather sweet along with
the bite. I seem to remember they were rosish on the top fading to
light yellow on the bottom. Maybe not. Hadn't though of them in
years. It was a large tree, if there is such a thing as a standard
crab. Made darn good projectiles for us neighborhood kids in a
crabapple fight.

but yeah, crabs are just apples that people don't appreciate


What? You calling Billy an apple? Crabby Appleton!! (remember him?)
But Billy definitely isn't "rotten to the core".

Charlie

Billy Rotten to you, punk;-) sheesh
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 01:19:37 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:

Charlie wrote in
:

Cider?? How 'bout cider of the hard kind? ;-) Seriously,
have you had or made crabapple hard cider?

of course. and peary (pear cider).
not all crabapples though. it's the sugars in the apples that
convert to alcohol, so a blend tends to be best.

Do you have a recomendation for a reputable online source of yeasts? I
woould have to drive nearly 100 to buy from a store and I like word of
mouth recommendations.

Don't get the cart before the horse Chalie, first you got to get the
juice. Juicing an apple is an whole other story from juicing a grape.
Apple presses are industrial strength, heavy duty m-fs. Let me know when
your ready to squeez and we'll go over the rest of it.

My grandmother had large crabapple tree and she made the
best jelly from them, gawd I'd like to have a jar of that
again. IIRC, given I was small then, they were a large
crab and were rather sweet along with the bite. I seem to
remember they were rosish on the top fading to light yellow
on the bottom. Maybe not. Hadn't though of them in years.
It was a large tree, if there is such a thing as a
standard crab. Made darn good projectiles for us
neighborhood kids in a crabapple fight.

that sounds a lot like this tree. all the old trees were
standards, unpruned apples can get over 40'.
my grandmother made the jelly, & sweet pickled crabapple
rings. remember those?

Indeed I do, though Grandmother sweet pickled them whole. I remember
thinking the whole cloves were pretty cool looking. Foreign looking
things with good taste to a kid. Reminded me of pulled teeth. I also
remember the cracks and splits in them and the semi-tough skins and
soft flesh.

Sigh.......this has been a good day for memory lane.


What? You calling Billy an apple? Crabby Appleton!!
(remember him?) But Billy definitely isn't "rotten to the
core".

yup, i remember. nah, Billy's not a crabapple.
lee

I know.

Charlie
--

Billy

Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague
http://angryarab.blogspot.com/
http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/

enigma wrote:

Bill wrote in

news.net:

In article ,
enigma wrote:

my grandmother had a really wonderful crabapple at the
back of her garden in western NY. she died last year & now
my aunt is thinking of selling the house.
i want to know if i can get grafts of that tree & grow
them
on an old, non-producing apple tree here in NH. if that's
possible, how much time do i have between cutting the
scions & grafting them to my tree?

You have to take the scion pieces off the crabapple before the tree
goes out of dormancy. Take the new growth portion of the branches
for best results. You then should wrap them in saran wrap and put them
in a plastic sealed bag with a piece of damp toweling and place that in a
cool dark place like your frig. Spring is the best time to do apple
grafting.
Keeping them for next year would probably reduce their viability quite a
bit.

what time of year is
best? is it possible to just root cuttings from the
crabapple? i probably have a year or so timeframe to get
this done.

Your best time is to do it this Spring.



Tough Question. I¹d start now and do a few every month
till no longer
an option.

it's a 12 hour drive to get there. i don't get there too
often, but i will try if i have to.

Crabapples are tough so maybe they will excuse
multiple mistakes. Time ...unless you winter them in the
ground , I'd say the sooner the better. I do not know if
apple wood can winter over buried but if last resort give
it a try. Grape hard wood cuttings can.

i think i'll try the rooting pots that Lee Valley sells on
one branch, & take some cuttings to try to scion onto my
apple. i'm even willing to buy a young apple tree if that
might take a graft easier.

You may have better luck with a graft taking if you use a young
vigoruous apple tree, rather than an older tree. Better yet, get
a hold of a apple rootstock for this job. You can then prune
off all the rootstock branches, so that you will direct all the roots
energy into the scion you have grafted atop it.



Anyone know better practice ?

Just sticking my Bamboo Begonia in water works.

i've had that work with roses & willows (but willows will root
in just about anything).i just haven't had much experience
grafting or rooting apple

Grafting is probably a preferable technique than rooting.

Sherwin



lee

enigma wrote:

apples are commonly grafted though. i almost bought a orchard
in upstate NY, where all the trees in one block had just been
regrafted to the new popular varieties. what they do is cut
off the entire crown & then quarter cut the trunk about an
inch, putting in 4 grafts of the latest fad & covering the
graft with beeswax. that way you have trees bearing full tilt
in one year, rather than waiting 5 years for seedlings to get
established... you can also graft 2 or more varieties on one
trunk to save on space. (the reason i didn't buy was 15 acres
was under high tension powerlines & 50+ acres just behind the
orchard & right next to the spring that supplied the farm's
water had been sold to a developer. looked like a headache in
the making).
at any rate, i know apples can be grafted as scions and can
be bud grafted.

Apples are best done with a whip and tongue, cleft graft, etc. in
the Spring time. Bud grafting is commonly done on things like stone
fruits in the Summer time.

i just don't know which is a better idea with
the crabapple. my hopeful rootstock tree is not producing
apples. it had a cedar tree right next to it (which the llamas
kindly ate, stopping the cedar-apple rust issue)

Just for the record, it is not Cedar trees which give apple
cedar rust, but Junipers. The Eastern Red-Cedars are miss-named ,
because they are really in the Juniper family (Juniperus virginiana).
Keep all Junipers away from your apple trees.

Sherwin

& hasn't been
pruned in over 15 years. i'm working on getting it in some
kind of reasonable health currently.
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

Charlie wrote in
news
Do you have a recomendation for a reputable online source
of yeasts? I woould have to drive nearly 100 to buy from a
store and I like word of mouth recommendations.

we get brewing supplies from a few places. here's some online
sources we've had good luck with:

Mt. Washingtom Homebrew Supply (same state, but 3+ hour drive)
http://www.brewbyyou.com/

Northern Brewer:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/

yeasts do add different tastes, so try a few & see which you
like.
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

Steve wrote:

enigma wrote:
my grandmother had a really wonderful crabapple at the back of
her garden in western NY. she died last year & now my aunt is
thinking of selling the house.
i want to know if i can get grafts of that tree & grow them
on an old, non-producing apple tree here in NH. if that's
possible, how much time do i have between cutting the scions &
grafting them to my tree? what time of year is best? is it
possible to just root cuttings from the crabapple? i probably
have a year or so timeframe to get this done.
lee

I just read all the replies to see if you got any good advice. Sherwin
speaks the truth. ;-)
I have ordered scion wood from several states away to graft on my trees.
I only have 4 apple trees but some of them now have several (up to 9 or
10) varieties grafted on different branches. Those scions come in a
padded envelope by regular mail. They may be in the mail system for 3 or
4 days at various temperatures. I get them into the refrigerator as soon
as they arrive and they are all fine.
I don't know if it's too late in western NY to take scions now or not.
If there is any green starting to show, it's too late. My trees are
quite dormant here with snow still covering the roots of some of them.
You want to graft a very dormant scion onto the new tree when it has
just started to grow.
The best scions come from last year's growth that has grown with vigor.
A water sprout would be perfect. Lacking that, the most vigorous new
growth tends to be at the top of the tree. I just collected 2 scions,
today, from my neighbor's old Cortland apple. No water sprouts and I
didn't have any way to reach the top so I finally found two twigs that
had grown about 4 inches last year. Not much vigor there but I bet they
will grow.
The best place to graft a scion onto is also a strong vertical growing
shoot. You need to get enough scions so that you can make AT LEAST a few
grafts on various places on the tree at your place. If even one grows,
you will then have you own source of scion wood in the future. Then you
can make more grafts later or buy a small tree or rootstock and make a
new tree.
If you missed the scion collecting season this year, you could try some
bud grafts later in the summer. I did some of those last summer. They
are not as much fun because I will not know if they worked until next
month when the tree wakes up. I have some scions from the same source
ready as a back up if they failed. I have virtually 100% success with
spring grafting of apples. I haven't done enough budding to keep score.

I thought bud grafting was not a good technique for apples. Are you
getting any takes with your budding of apples?


If you don't get anything going this year, get someone to cut some
scions next year about the beginning of March and put them in plastic so
they don't dry out in shipping. Zip lock bag, bread bag, whatever.
How much time do you have between cutting and grafting? The guy who
showed me how to graft (I most commonly do a simple splice graft ...
easy.) said he once kept some scions in the refrigerator for a year
finally grafting them, with some success, about 14 months after
collecting them. Not recommended! He dips the fresh scions in melted
bee's wax before they go in the refrigerator. I do that too. No need to
seal the new grafts that way.

You may not want to bother with wax, as some people do, but I think
masking tape is also not a good alternative. It is not waterproof, and
will
allow the graft union to dry out. I have been using a relatively new
product
called Parafilm, originally designed for medical use as a bandage. It
breathes
by also acts as a water shield. Some people use teflon tape, but that
doesn't
breath. Of course, you can't argue with success, so if you are getting
good
grafting takes with masking tape, I can't argue with that.

Sherwin

I just make the cuts, wrap masking tape
around the graft and wrap an ordinary rubber band around the tape to
keep the cut surfaces tight together.

I usually put the rubber band on first, and then cover with the tape. I
think
you can keep a better eye on the cambium allignment that way. Again, I
cannot argue with your success rate.

Get cambium of the scion in
contact with cambium of the stock and it will grow.
Oh, don't bother with cuttings. It's possible to do but it's not easy at
all with apples.

Steve in the Adirondacks of northern NY (about half way between western
NY and New Hampshire. ;-) )