I'm planning on planting a small garden in my back yard. Currently
there's lawn with grass growing where I want to plant. When you till the
soil, can you just mix in the grass? Or should the grass be removed
first, then tilled, and compost added?

-Thanks

In article ,
James Egan wrote:

I'm planning on planting a small garden in my back yard. Currently
there's lawn with grass growing where I want to plant. When you till the
soil, can you just mix in the grass? Or should the grass be removed
first, then tilled, and compost added?

-Thanks

Don't dig. Don't till.
Here is a site from the impeccable Mother Earth News.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organ.../Lasagna-Garde
ning.aspx
It is for gardening with out digging, to which I, and a few others here
attest to its' efficacy.

You are getting started a little late. Cover your garden area
immediately with newsprint (no color) or cardboard, after spreading
around some manure, bone meal, and maybe some wood stove ashes. Cover
the paper with alfalfa (2" to 4"). Afterward, mulch with any kind of
compost but try to fish emulsion with "organic" fish emulsion at least
once amonth. Then water and wait ten days before you plant by poking
holes through the paper/cardboard.

Big plants to the north of the garden. Beds should be 4' wide. Stepping
stones would be nice for the pathways, to keep from compacting the dirt
too much. See if you can get "How to Grow More Vegetables" by John
Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0 from
your local library.

This fall, broadcast rye or buckwheat into your garden. Next year,
repeat process.

The plants that you grow will each be their own little universe. Learn
what they need. Each one. This will be slow, but the deeper the
understanding, the more they will reward you.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

Billy wrote:
In article ,
James Egan wrote:

I'm planning on planting a small garden in my back yard. Currently
there's lawn with grass growing where I want to plant. When you
till the soil, can you just mix in the grass? Or should the grass
be removed first, then tilled, and compost added?

-Thanks

Don't dig. Don't till.
Here is a site from the impeccable Mother Earth News.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organ.../Lasagna-Garde
ning.aspx
It is for gardening with out digging, to which I, and a few others
here attest to its' efficacy.

You are getting started a little late. Cover your garden area
immediately with newsprint (no color) or cardboard, after spreading
around some manure, bone meal, and maybe some wood stove ashes. Cover
the paper with alfalfa (2" to 4"). Afterward, mulch with any kind of
compost but try to fish emulsion with "organic" fish emulsion at least
once amonth. Then water and wait ten days before you plant by poking
holes through the paper/cardboard.

Big plants to the north of the garden. Beds should be 4' wide.
Stepping stones would be nice for the pathways, to keep from
compacting the dirt too much. See if you can get "How to Grow More
Vegetables" by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0 from
your local library.

This fall, broadcast rye or buckwheat into your garden. Next year,
repeat process.

The plants that you grow will each be their own little universe. Learn
what they need. Each one. This will be slow, but the deeper the
understanding, the more they will reward you.

Billy is a bit serious about this. And that is right as this is serious
business - but not deadly serious. If you want to get results a bit quicker
it is possible. Now I don't want to argue with him but you could possibly
do it with some tilling - and avoid being smited by the elder gods.

Yes you can not till, and do some other stuff, and wait and for nature to
take its course and this would be very good, in time. But for ground that
has not been dug in a long time you can speed things up by selective
tilling. Some turning over and aeration while you dig in the grass, and add
some other goodies (compost, manure, lime etc) will work just fine.

I don't recommend frequent tilling but for a first time preparation it has
its place. You decide.

David

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:04:01 -0400, James Egan
wrote:

I'm planning on planting a small garden in my back yard. Currently
there's lawn with grass growing where I want to plant. When you till the
soil, can you just mix in the grass? Or should the grass be removed
first, then tilled, and compost added?

-Thanks


Remove the grass and heap it to start a compost pile. It will make
compost in a few months. Manually remove rocks, roots, etc. It would
be good to purchase compost if you do not have some, then till it in
when the soil is not too damp. I usually till in a little 10-10-10,
best to test your soil.

Don't just till the grass into the garden. Many bits of it will grow again
and it will become a weed problem in your garden. Most posters here are
anti-chemical and won't mention this, but the quick and easy way to solve
the grass problem is to spray it with glyphosate (Round Up), then till it in
a couple of days later.

Andrew

"James Egan" wrote in message
news
I'm planning on planting a small garden in my back yard. Currently
there's lawn with grass growing where I want to plant. When you till the
soil, can you just mix in the grass? Or should the grass be removed
first, then tilled, and compost added?

-Thanks

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:21:58 -0700, Billy wrote:

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson


Wow, that seems like an awful lot of work! I also saw your quote from
Rachel Carson, to which I would respond, that regardless of the chemicals,
life expectancy has skyrocketed to the ripe old age of 75, and will
increase even more, probably more than we can imagine, thanks to
technology.

"James Egan" wrote:

I'm planning on planting a small garden in my back yard. Currently
there's lawn with grass growing where I want to plant. When you till the
soil, can you just mix in the grass? Or should the grass be removed
first, then tilled, and compost added?


Depends on your definition of "small", how hard you're willing to work, and
what surprises you'll find once you begin working the earth. For an area
under say a thousand square feet you're probably better off spading by hand,
turning over clumps of sod to dry so you can shake out the top soil and
remove rocks as you go, then compost the plant material (I would suggest
shaking out the top soil onto a tarp so you don't lose any to your existing
lawn and to keep it separate until later when it can be more evenly
distributed). Or you can just dig in with a good sized tiller, making
passes until all the sod is pulverized. No matter which method (or
combination thereof) there will still entail plenty of hand raking to grade
and remove rocks and debris. Figure on at least three years of tilling,
raking, picking rocks, and amending before the soil in your plot is
considered adequately prepped... rocks have a way of constantly moving to
the surface of disturbed soil, especially the first few years. Of course
preparing a garden also has a lot to do with ones personal concept of
perfection weighed against ones stamina.

"James Egan" wrote in message
news
I'm planning on planting a small garden in my back yard. Currently
there's lawn with grass growing where I want to plant. When you till the
soil, can you just mix in the grass? Or should the grass be removed
first, then tilled, and compost added?

-Thanks



I'd use a hybrid method based on various ideas here, but (especially) if you
want to grow edibles, ignore idiots who suggest using chemicals like Roundup
on the garden. Cover the area thickly with newsprint, then mulch. Dig out
only think strips where you want to plant seeds or plants. The idea is to
stop the grass from competing with whatever you plant.

If you till the grass, you won't kill it. You'll just chop it into a million
pieces and much of it will grow back quickly. You can try and pick it out,
but that's crazy. The absolute best way is to slice the turf into manageable
pieces and then slice under it to remove it. At that point, it's best to
shake/chop/curse off the excellent soil that clings to the roots. Imagine
how much fun that is for a large area.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote:

If you till the grass, you won't kill it. You'll just chop it into a
million pieces and much of it will grow back quickly. You can try and pick
it out, but that's crazy.

Actually the sod that's chopped up doesn't grow back, *new* "weeds" grow
back, and grow back constantly unless properly mulched... in my veggie
garden I use mulching cloth around the plants and corrogated cardborad for
walking paths. I leave the cloth and cardboard all winter or lots more
weeds will grow at the end of fall and early spring. In about two weeks
I'll be rolling up the cloth to reuse and will till the whole thing, old
cardboard too... I have plenty of new cardboard saved.

The absolute best way is to slice the turf into manageable
pieces and then slice under it to remove it. At that point, it's best to
shake/chop/curse off the excellent soil that clings to the roots. Imagine
how much fun that is for a large area.

I just spade out clumps about 8" deep. Flipped root up on a sunny day the
soil will dry well enough in two hours to crumble with gloved hands... I
place the clods on a heavy plastic tarp to dry, then crumble into a
wheelbarrow (easier on the back). Once I have a mountain of de-soiled sod I
hose it off to remove the last bits, then into the composter with only
vegetable matter, why fill the composter with soil. I fill 5 gallon
contractor buckets with stones as I go, I rinse the top soil from those too
before dumping the stones into the creek. It's surprising how much one can
accomplish in a short time when using a system. I use the same system every
time I dig a 5-6 foot diameter hole to plant a tree/shrub. That's the only
time I add purchased top soil for what's lost in the digging and from
rocks... I'd rather not dig holes in my wooded areas for fill. The top soil
I buy is from a local guy who specializes in dredging lakes and ponds,
excellent black gold. There are many livestock farms very close by where I
can get manure for free, but it's not composted so I'd rather buy bagged. I
don't need to fertilize my lawn, the deer and Canada geese do an excellent
job.

In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote:

Billy wrote:
In article ,
James Egan wrote:

I'm planning on planting a small garden in my back yard. Currently
there's lawn with grass growing where I want to plant. When you
till the soil, can you just mix in the grass? Or should the grass
be removed first, then tilled, and compost added?

-Thanks

Don't dig. Don't till.
Here is a site from the impeccable Mother Earth News.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Organ.../Lasagna-Garde
ning.aspx
It is for gardening with out digging, to which I, and a few others
here attest to its' efficacy.

You are getting started a little late. Cover your garden area
immediately with newsprint (no color) or cardboard, after spreading
around some manure, bone meal, and maybe some wood stove ashes. Cover
the paper with alfalfa (2" to 4"). Afterward, mulch with any kind of
compost but try to fish emulsion with "organic" fish emulsion at least
once amonth. Then water and wait ten days before you plant by poking
holes through the paper/cardboard.

Big plants to the north of the garden. Beds should be 4' wide.
Stepping stones would be nice for the pathways, to keep from
compacting the dirt too much. See if you can get "How to Grow More
Vegetables" by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0 from
your local library.

This fall, broadcast rye or buckwheat into your garden. Next year,
repeat process.

The plants that you grow will each be their own little universe. Learn
what they need. Each one. This will be slow, but the deeper the
understanding, the more they will reward you.

Billy is a bit serious about this. And that is right as this is serious
business - but not deadly serious. If you want to get results a bit quicker
it is possible. Now I don't want to argue with him but you could possibly
do it with some tilling - and avoid being smited by the elder gods.

Yes you can not till, and do some other stuff, and wait and for nature to
take its course and this would be very good, in time. But for ground that
has not been dug in a long time you can speed things up by selective
tilling. Some turning over and aeration while you dig in the grass, and add
some other goodies (compost, manure, lime etc) will work just fine.

I don't recommend frequent tilling but for a first time preparation it has
its place. You decide.

David
I would agree more with David, if this was bare soil or hard to dig, but
if it hasn't been drenched with biocides, I'd leave it alone. Worms,
besides fertilizing your garden, create tunnels for movement. These worm
tunnels aerate and drain the soil, thus ameliorating the soil for the
plants. The plants in turn exude polysaccharides from their roots which
attract fungi and bacteria, which attract (predators) nematodes and
protozoa, which in turn attract arthropods (animals with segmented
bodies, jointed appendages, and a hard outer covering called an
exoskeleton). All this living and dying will return nutrients to the
plants in greater abundance than that lost by the exudants from the
plants.* The point is to incorporate as much organic material as you can
into the soil (ideally 5 - 10%) and then keep the soil mulched, as the
break-down products feed the micro flora and fauna of the soil.

Normally, with bare ground, tilling the soil is recommended, "double
digging" even better.** Using a garden fork or spading is the least
intrusive way to do this. Roto-tilling has a downside in that it
will/may compact your soil, besides disturbing the ecosystem that I
presume that has installed itself under your lawn. I hope any proponents
of roto-tilling will make their argument for it here, but to see the
argument against it see: http://www.plantea.com/no-tilling.htm

Chemical fertilizers and pesticides are to be avoided for your sake and
the sake of the planet.***

Whatever your going to do, you should get about it soon, if you wish to
grow everything that you want.

* Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1


** "How to Grow More Vegetables" by John Jeavons
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b/...=search-alias%
3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=How+to+Grow+More+Vegetables&x=0&y=0

*** The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael
Pollan
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1

These are all available at better libraries near you.

Now if I can just find one of my lightening bolts to send David's way.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article ,
James Egan wrote:

On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 23:21:58 -0700, Billy wrote:

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson


Wow, that seems like an awful lot of work! I also saw your quote from
Rachel Carson, to which I would respond, that regardless of the chemicals,
life expectancy has skyrocketed to the ripe old age of 75, and will
increase even more, probably more than we can imagine, thanks to
technology.

And who has benefited the most? Those who are subjected to pollutants
(industrial areas, w/ or w/out smokestacks), the poor (who may eat
tainted food, or nutritionally impoverished foods comprised of fats and
carbohydrates), farm workers (subjected to herbicides and pesticides)?
You will find these populations don't benefit from their exposure to
toxic chemicals or nutrient impoverished foods.

We live longer not because we are healthier but because of earlier
diagnosis and medical intervention. How much longer would we live,
without our body's burden of toxic chemicals that we carry around inside
of ourselves?

http://www.ewg.org/node/15952
What Chemicals Are Lurking Inside Your Body?

Chemicals, toxins, and other dangerous substances exist throughout our
environments -- and you may be surprised by how many end up inside your
body.
WebMD, Dulce
Published February 17, 2004
Charlotte Brody feels violated and angry. After years of buying organic
products and rejecting artificial chemicals in her gardening, she
discovers the presence of the pesticide Dursban in her body.
The chemical, used to treat lawns and turfs and to kills termites and
mosquitoes, is linked to neurological problems.
"I have longed for Dursban at times," says Brody, describing the pains
she has taken to remove weeds by hand. "To find out I really couldn't
stay away from Dursban really troubled me."
Brody learned of her exposure to the now-banned pesticide after
participating in a study in which researchers at two major laboratories
found an average of 91 industrial compounds, pollutants, and other
chemicals in the blood and urine of nine volunteers.
The volunteers did not work with chemicals in their jobs and did not
live near an industrial facility.
The list includes compounds found in insecticides, cosmetic and
personal-care products, cleaning solutions, paint, fuel, and industrial
pollutants such as PCBs and dioxin. Many have been linked to cancer in
animals or humans, and about half are toxins or cause birth defects.
Some of the subjects were surprised to hear they had stuff like lead,
arsenic, and flame-retardants in their system, what some experts refer
to as a person's "body burden."

Debates Aplenty

Although the technology to check for one's body burden -- called
biomonitoring -- is nothing new, its use appears to both give
revelations about the connection between people and the environment, and
fuel debate about where that connection begins and ends.
In the study in which Brody participated, watchdog agencies the
Environmental Working Group (EWG) and Commonweal commissioned the
biomonitoring test to document the "pollution in people," according to
Jane Houlihan, EWG's vice president of research.
The study, Houlihan says, reveals individuals may be even more
vulnerable to toxicants than previously thought. "It's even likely that
there's an even higher burden of disease from our exposures to different
chemicals because we are exposed to so many simultaneously," she says.
Yet the link between the presence of chemicals in human blood and
evidence of disease is not always solid. And if a link exists, there is
often heated discussion over what level of exposure crosses the line
into danger.
While the jury is still out, many health professionals suggest ways
people can reduce their contact with contaminants, but even that topic
inspirespassionate dialogue.
"What can I do to protect my health?" ponders Brody. "Going through this
biomonitoring made me feel like for this question, there are very few
'I' answers. There are only 'we' answers."
For that matter, answers seem to coexist with questions when it comes to
discussions about body burden, disease, and preventing contamination.
The overriding question here may, indeed, be, "What isn't in question?"
Chemical Exposure = Danger?
If we all remember our periodic table of the elements from high school
science, chemical compounds are everywhere in the environment, and some
of it can be found within ourselves -- for instance, oxygen.
What could make a chemical harmful is the amount of it that gets inside
the body. "If there's a chemical out in the environment that's stuck to
a piece of clay, but it never leaves that piece of clay, and it never
gets inside your body, it never can hurt you," explains James Pirkle,
MD, PhD, deputy director for science at the CDC's environmental health
lab.
Some elements have been proved to be health hazards, says Pirkle,
pointing to the established connection between lead and neurological
disease, and cigarette smoke and cancer.
Yet there are many more mysterious compounds, says Shelley Hearne, DrPh,
executive director of Trust for America's Health (TFAH), a nonprofit
organization advocating for disease prevention.
"The majority of chemicals that we routinely use in this country have
not been adequately tested for their effects on humans," says Hearne,
calling for the government to do standard toxicological testing on
substances in the market.
The CDC routinely evaluates compounds it suspects may cause health
hazards.
In fact, the agency is currently evaluating a set of manmade chemical
called phthalates, which are often used in some food packaging, toys,
automobile plastics, and cosmetic products such as soap, shampoo, nail
products, deodorants, and lotions.
Animal studies show very high levels of some phthalates can cause birth
defects in the male reproductive system, including undescended
testicles, absent testicles, and a physical defect of the penis.
Researchers are still trying to figure out the effects of phthalates on
humans and what levels of it are safe.
Hearne argues that synthetic chemicals don't belong inside the human
body and it is only common sense to conclude that they're not good for
people.
She says, "If I find out that I've got levels of a substance -- while
we're not sure what level is bad for you -- but we do have indications
that, one, this isn't naturally occurring, and, two, that at higher
levels, it's a known toxin, I don't want it there."
Vern L. Schramm, PhD, chairman of the biochemistry section of the
American Chemical Society, says it's important to keep things in
perspective. "There are more toxins in the human body that are naturally
occurring than those that are manmade," he says, citing the following
examples: Most of the mercury in the fish we eat comes from rock
sediments in the ocean, much of the arsenic in water leaks from rocks in
aquifers, and dioxin is simply a byproduct of flame and cooking.
Even with all the natural and artificial chemicals in the environment,
Schramm says the human body is usually well equipped to deal with a
small amount of toxins.
Additionally, he says there is value to some manmade compounds. Babies
who come in contact with fire-resistant clothes, for example, may have
some flame retardant compounds in their system, but such garments save
lives, says Schramm. Fewer kids reportedly die of burns because of
flame-resistant wear.

Reducing Exposure

Regardless of reassurances from experts that most everyday chemicals are
safe, there are people who might worry that they may be wrong. For those
individuals, Houlihan offers the following advice:
€ Choose organic products.
€ Eat fewer fatty and processed foods.
€ Use soap and water instead of more chemically intensive household
cleaners.
€ Forgo optional treatments on carpet, furniture, and car upholstery.
Brody also encourages people to get involved in advocating for less
pollution. "What can we do to change policies so that we're protected?"
she asks.
Groups like EWG and TFAH ask those same questions and press the
government for more research on the effects of compounds on health.
The EWG, in particular, urges authorities to look into the cumulative
effects of coexisting substances, as opposed to just the impact of one
chemical.
Houlihan says there's growing evidence that otherwise safe doses of
chemicals, when put together, can cause harm.
The CDC regularly assesses the chemical exposure level of the U.S.
population through biomonitoring tests and comes out with its findings
every two years. In the last report, scientists checked for 116
different environmental chemicals in the blood and urine of some 2,500
people.
------

The bad guys are Archer Daniels Midland, ConAgra, Cargill, American
Cyanamid, Ciba-Geigy, Monsanto, Syngenta, Exxon Mobil) and foundations
that have benefited from petroleum (e.g. Koch Family Foundations and
Scaife Foundations), and The Hudson Institute, among others. They and
their products should be boycotted.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

On Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:04:01 -0400, James Egan
wrote:

I'm planning on planting a small garden in my back yard. Currently
there's lawn with grass growing where I want to plant. When you till the
soil, can you just mix in the grass? Or should the grass be removed
first, then tilled, and compost added?

-Thanks


I asked a friend how he removed grass for his garden. He tilled the
grass right into the soil and raked out the roots. The grass that was
tilled deep turned to decomposed, and the remaining removed later.
Sounds like the easiest method and I don't see any remaining grass in
the plot.

James Egan wrote:
I'm planning on planting a small garden in my back yard. Currently
there's lawn with grass growing where I want to plant. When you till
the soil, can you just mix in the grass? Or should the grass be
removed first, then tilled, and compost added?


I've had good results by renting a sod cutter and carefully removing the sod for
composting. With the sod goes most of the weed seeds that might be waiting for
soil exposure to sprout. Doing it this way can really help avoid major battles
with weeds and grass the first years, and gets you going fast.

On Apr 25, 12:21*am, Billy wrote:

You are getting started a little late. Cover your garden area
immediately with newsprint (no color) or cardboard, after spreading
around some manure, bone meal, and maybe some wood stove ashes. Cover
the paper with alfalfa (2" to 4"). Afterward, mulch with any kind of
compost but try to fish emulsion with "organic" fish emulsion at least
once amonth. Then water and wait ten days before you plant by poking
holes through the paper/cardboard.


So the bed would be ready for perennials in 2 weeks?

I'm starting to move in a couple of weeks and hoping to take some of
my garden with me. The new place has a small yard all grassed over. I
have to move everything over within the next month and a half and will
have a good supply of cardboard once I unpack the boxes.

A friend has suggested I try the lasagna method, but I was under the
impression you shouldn't really break through the cardboard for the
first season. So do you think I could do it within the next month or
should I start my back exercises now? (For the spading up of the
yard.)
Dora

In article
,
wrote:

On Apr 25, 12:21*am, Billy wrote:

You are getting started a little late. Cover your garden area
immediately with newsprint (no color) or cardboard, after spreading
around some manure, bone meal, and maybe some wood stove ashes. Cover
the paper with alfalfa (2" to 4"). Afterward, mulch with any kind of
compost but try to fish emulsion with "organic" fish emulsion at least
once amonth. Then water and wait ten days before you plant by poking
holes through the paper/cardboard.


So the bed would be ready for perennials in 2 weeks?

I'm starting to move in a couple of weeks and hoping to take some of
my garden with me. The new place has a small yard all grassed over. I
have to move everything over within the next month and a half and will
have a good supply of cardboard once I unpack the boxes.

A friend has suggested I try the lasagna method, but I was under the
impression you shouldn't really break through the cardboard for the
first season. So do you think I could do it within the next month or
should I start my back exercises now? (For the spading up of the
yard.)
Dora

You don't have a month, Dora, but lasagna gardening is the best chance
that you have. Even if you just slap down the paper or cardboard, and
plant straight away through it, it is the best chance you have.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html