In article ,
Phisherman wrote:

On Tue, 05 May 2009 13:09:31 -0400, Sheila
wrote:
...

Doesn't Milorganite control deer too? I thought I heard that, if so
that a double good.


Don't believe it. I used Milorganite over one acre of land, and the
deer kept coming. Human hair and Irish Spring don't work either. The
things that might protect plants from deer are

electric fence
fifteen foot fence
netting
tall grass or wire mesh (chicken wire) on the ground
pit bull
a lot of deer stew

Of course, there are different kinds of deer depending on your
location. We have "mule deer" in east TN, they are large with large
ears.

You didn't mention motion activated sprinklers.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article ,
Phisherman wrote:

On Tue, 5 May 2009 00:08:50 -0500, "Freckles"
wrote:

I would like to use a systemic pesticide on my roses.

I've heard systemic pesticides can be very dangerous.

Anything misused can be dangerous. For example, water can be very
dangerous.


I've tried several different sprays and am not satisfied with the results.


Not all systemic products are sprayed. Spraying can be hazardous due
to inhalation.


Can anyone recommend a brand of systemic pesticide that is not so dangerous
to humans and pets?

There are Rose Food/Systemic products that are applied to the soil,
scratched in and the pesticide is taken up by the roots.

I use the Ortho product (Bayer makes one too) on my roses only. I am
willing to try other remedies, that is, if there is one that I have
not tried. Aphids are hard to control.




Thanks,

Freckles



Yes, enough soapy water could be dangerous, but that's not what we are
talking about. Why don't you look up the MSDS on the products that you
suggest and see what their environmental impact is? When the oil runs
out, top soil will be the only thing between us and starvation. Try to
save a bit of it. It's disappearing very quickly.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article
,
Frank wrote:

Systemic means it's taken up and circulated within the
entire plant. Systemics are really only dangerous if
you eat some part of the treated plant.

ANd the environment Frank? How does it affect the environment Frank?
What could the downside be? MSDS is your friend, just like google.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article ,
"Freckles" wrote:

I use Bayer's Rose & Flower Care
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...yphosate/disul
foton-ext.html
ACUTE TOXICITY
Disulfoton is very highly toxic to all mammals by all routes of
exposure. It is labeled with a DANGER signal word. Whether absorbed
through the skin, ingested, or inhaled, early symptoms in humans may
include blurred vision, fatigue, headache, dizziness, sweating, tearing,
and salivation. Symptoms occurring at high doses include defecation,
urination, fluid accumulation in the lungs, convulsions, or coma. Death
can occur if high enough doses lead to stoppage of respiratory muscles
and/or constriction of the windpipes.
Ingestion of high doses can lead to rapid onset of effects on the
stomach while symptoms resulting from skin exposure may be delayed for
up to 12 hours. Complete recovery from acute poisoning takes at least
one week, but complete restoration of the blood to normal enzyme
(cholinestrase) levels may take up to three months (9).
The oral LD50 ranges from 6.2 to 12.5 mg/kg in male rats and from 1.9 to
2.5 mg/kg in female rats (12, 10). Weanling male rats have an oral LD50
of 5.4 mg/kg (10, 5). The dermal LD50 is 3.6 mg/kg for female rats and
15.9 mg/kg for male rats (4, 10). The inhalation LC50 for one hour is
180 ppb for male rats, and 90 ug/L for female rats (3).
CHRONIC TOXICITY
Disulfoton is rapidly absorbed through the skin. This chemical inhibits
cholinesterase, and, as a result, may affect the eyes, respiratory
system, and central nervous system (9). Continual daily absorption may
cause flu-like symptoms, loss of appetite, weakness, and uneasiness.
While repeated exposure to disulfoton may inhibit the cholinesterase
enzyme and thus interfere with the nervous system, 30-day human
exposures have not resulted in significant enzyme inhibition (10).
Workers chronically exposed to organo-phosphates, of which disulfoton is
a member, have developed irritability, delayed reaction times, anxiety,
slowness of thinking, and memory defects (9). Chronic exposure of
workers may also lead to cataracts.
Rats have survived daily doses of 0.5 mg/kg/day for 90 days. Some
studies have shown that rats can acquire a tolerance for the chemical,
so they are able to adjust to the lower cholinesterase levels resulting
from chronic lower level exposures (8).
Reproductive Effects
In a long-term reproduction study, 98.5% pure disulfoton was fed at
doses ranging from 0.05 to 0.5 mg/kg/day to both male and female albino
rats. At the high dose, the number of animals per litter was reduced by
21% in the first and third generations and a 10 to 25% lower pregnancy
rate was noted. Some third-generation litters whose parents were exposed
to this dose, developed fatty deposits and swelling in their livers.
Exposed adults and litters had a 60% to 70% inhibition of red blood cell
cholinesterase (10). This suggests that long-term exposures to high
doses of disulfoton may cause reproductive effects in humans.
Teratogenic Effects
In one study, pregnant rats were given disulfoton (98.2% pure) at doses
ranging from 0.1 to 1.0 mg/kg/day through a stomach tube during the
sensitive period of gestation. Cholinesterase activity was decreased. In
the fetuses, no developmental defects were seen except at high doses,
where incomplete bone development was noted (4, 10). In another study,
rabbits were given disulfoton (97.3% pure) during the sensitive period.
At the higher doses (1.5 and 2.0 mg/kg/day), the mothers experienced
tremors, incoordination, and death, while fetal growth was not affected
(10). These studies indicate that disulfoton is very unlikely to cause
birth defects in humans.

ECOLOGICAL EFFECTS
Disulfoton-containing products are highly toxic to cold and warm fish,
crab, shrimp, birds, and other wildlife (7, 8). The acute dietary LC50
for disulfoton in mallard ducks is 692 mg/kg, and 544 mg/kg in quail.
The EPA has stated that use of disulfoton on certain crops may pose a
risk to some aquatic and terrestrial endangered species (17).
------

You people don't have a clue as to what your doing and your mindlessness
affects everyone.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

Did I mention southern Californians passion for posing and a complete
disconnect with reality?

How's the Nobel Prize coming along David?


On 5/5/2009 6:30 PM, Freckles wrote:
"David E. Ross" wrote in message
et...
On 5/4/2009 10:08 PM, Freckles wrote:
I would like to use a systemic pesticide on my roses.

I've heard systemic pesticides can be very dangerous.

I've tried several different sprays and am not satisfied with the
results.

Can anyone recommend a brand of systemic pesticide that is not so
dangerous
to humans and pets?

Thanks,

Freckles
I use Bayer's Rose & Flower Care, which combines fertilizer and
systemic insecticide in a dry granular form. Although I feed my roses
every month from March through October, I use this product only
every-other month to get excellent results. In the alternating months,
I feed my roses with ammonium sulfate.

You might instead consider using Bayer's 12 Month Tree & Shrub Insect
Control, which is a systemic applied as a soil drench. I used this very
successfully to control leaf miners on citrus. It is considered
non-toxic to vertebrates (humans, other mammals, birds, reptiles, fish,
etc) and is thus safe on edibles. It controls such rose pests as aphid
and white fly. I haven't tried this on my own roses. You might call
your local agricultural extension to ask about using it. I will be
calling my county's agricultural extension when I replace my peach tree
to determine if it will control flat-headed bark borers since Lindane is
no longer available. NOTE: 12 Month Tree & Shrub Insect Control can be
quite expensive; it cost over $20 to give one treatment each to a dwarf
lemon and a dwarf orange.


--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

Thanks for the information.

I just order some Bayer insect control plus fertilizer plant spikes which
seem to be just what I want.

I've been watching the organic vs. chemical debate for years. I have tried
to go organic, but with very limited success. The plant stakes I've ordered
seem safe enough and they are not too expensive. Much of the organic
materials I've used were a lot more expensive than chemicals and in many
cases I needed to use much more of them to get the same results I could
have
gotten with a few chemicals.

If my grand dad had tried to go organic on our farm, we would have starved.

Freckles

Too many people confuse "organic" with "natural". For my comments on
this, see my http://www.rossde.com/garden/garden_organic.html.

My own gardening practices involve a mix of organic methods and
non-organic methods.

I produce my own compost (actually, a leaf mold), which I add to my
potting mix to inject the mix with the kinds of soil bacteria that are
needed to convert nutrients into forms that plant roots can absorb. I
use bone meal and blood meal in my potting mix for house plants. I
generally wait for ladybugs to deal with aphids. (I don't have to buy
and disperse them; they come naturally.)

To combat brown snails (Helix aspersa, also known as Cantareus
aspersus), I can't use poisonous snail bait because my tortoise would
then eat the still toxic dead snails. Instead, I use carnivorous
decollate snails (Rumina decollata), which eat the eggs and young of the
brown snails. I also wrap copper wire around flower pots containing
plants that are especially attractive to brown snails.

On the other hand, I feed my roses, citrus, and other plants with
chemical fertilizers. After pruning them, I spray my peach, roses, and
grapes with a mix of dormant oil and copper sulfate. Newly planted
flowering shrubs have super-phosphate dug into the soil below their root
balls. Yes, I do use systemic insecticides on my roses and citrus and
Roundup on thistles sprouting on my hill. As for my leaf mold, I
accelerate its decomposition by adding urea (50-0-0) to the pile.

Am I an environmental rogue? I don't think so. Birds and squirrels
seem to enjoy my garden. Raccoons steal my grapes. Many, many bees
constantly visit my flowers. And Cleopatra -- an endangered California
desert tortoise (Gopherus agassizii) -- has happily grazed in my back
yard since 1977. (Before you consider reporting me for having a
contraband tortoise, Cleopatra is already registered with the California
Department of Fish and Game; she is legal.)
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

No, toxics are not the answer to all questions about why bad things
happen. You can't blame insecticides for every bad thing.

You're right. People kill people.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

On Tue, 5 May 2009 20:30:04 -0500, "Freckles"
wrote:

I just order some Bayer insect control plus fertilizer plant spikes which
seem to be just what I want.

It should work, follow directions. Roses can require heavy
maintenance so I have only three Don Juan climbers, planted in 1994.
Perhaps keeping my roses toxic have kept the deer from eating them
sigh.

On Tue, 05 May 2009 19:11:34 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 5 May 2009 00:08:50 -0500, "Freckles"
wrote:

I would like to use a systemic pesticide on my roses.

I've heard systemic pesticides can be very dangerous.

I've tried several different sprays and am not satisfied with the results.

Can anyone recommend a brand of systemic pesticide that is not so dangerous
to humans and pets?

Thanks,

Freckles

I've planted garlic around the roses with good success. Definitely kid
and pet friendly.

Kate


Kate, you are extra fortunate to have garlic that works. I have a
row of garlic in front of my roses, it dies to the ground in June but
comes back in January. It is the companion plant. It does nothing
to stop the aphids, not sure about deer or vampires though.

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Tue, 5 May 2009 20:30:04 -0500, "Freckles"
wrote:


I just order some Bayer insect control plus fertilizer plant spikes which
seem to be just what I want.

Bayer.....patoooie and effem. Baby and bee killing bastids. I worked
for those effers for four years in the late seventies and early
eighties, (and am still ashamed to admit to being a Magic Christian
during that period) and they dealt death. Worse now.


I've been watching the organic vs. chemical debate for years. I have tried
to go organic, but with very limited success.

Then your processes and understanding were/are flawed.

The plant stakes I've ordered
seem safe enough and they are not too expensive. Much of the organic
materials I've used were a lot more expensive than chemicals and in many
cases I needed to use much more of them to get the same results I could
have
gotten with a few chemicals.

Less more, less more....."Better Things for Better Living...Through
Chemistry." DuPont (and dow and monsatano and on and on)

You don't just substitute organic "stuff" for deadly stuff to achieve
health and balance.

Your understanding of soil health and organic is lacking.


If my grand dad had tried to go organic on our farm, we would have
starved.

FKN bullshit. You don't understand organic and/or soil health.

How old are you? When was your grand-dad "farming"?

Educate yourself. Make a commitment to planetary health and view your
prcesses in that light. I'm fkn sick of excuses like, I grow stuff
that shouldn't be grown here, so I gotta use poison, or it's too much
work and expense to grow safe and healthy food. Gawd, the list goes
on and on and on......ad nauseum.

What the hell is wrong with all you chemical-head ignoramuses?

Charlie

Another ignorant fanatic heard from!

If it were not for those dangerous chemicals, as you like to call them,
there would be even more millions of people starving. than there are now.

Most, if not all, of the medicines used to combat illnesses and ailments are
dangerous, but we still take them. I guess you refrain from taking such
medicines because of their harm to the environment. Ha

Maybe you think organic farmers can supply enough food to feed the world.
How ignorant!

Besides, this is a gardening newsgroup, not an organic only group. If you
don't like what you read here, go elsewhere and stick your head in the sand
there.

In other words get lost asshole!

brooklyn1 wrote:
"Sheila" wrote:
Well, we didn't like deer even before we moved here.


What's not to like... deer are gentle creatures, they bother no one... I
like having deer around. Besides, they supply free fertilizer.




\




They may supply free fertilizer, but you won't have anything to fertilize.

--
Sheila
http://swdalton.com

Phisherman wrote:
On Tue, 05 May 2009 13:09:31 -0400, Sheila
wrote:
...

Doesn't Milorganite control deer too? I thought I heard that, if so
that a double good.


Don't believe it. I used Milorganite over one acre of land, and the
deer kept coming. Human hair and Irish Spring don't work either. The
things that might protect plants from deer are

electric fence
fifteen foot fence
netting
tall grass or wire mesh (chicken wire) on the ground
pit bull
a lot of deer stew

Of course, there are different kinds of deer depending on your
location. We have "mule deer" in east TN, they are large with large
ears.


A 5 wire electric fence finally fixed the problem.

--
Sheila
http://swdalton.com

On 5/6/2009 6:54 PM, Billy wrote:
In article ,
"Freckles" wrote:

I use Bayer's Rose & Flower Care
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles...yphosate/disul
foton-ext.html
ACUTE TOXICITY
Disulfoton is very highly toxic to all mammals by all routes of
exposure. It is labeled with a DANGER signal word. Whether absorbed
through the skin, ingested, or inhaled, early symptoms in humans may
include blurred vision, fatigue, headache, dizziness, sweating, tearing,
and salivation. Symptoms occurring at high doses include defecation,
urination, fluid accumulation in the lungs, convulsions, or coma. Death
can occur if high enough doses lead to stoppage of respiratory muscles
and/or constriction of the windpipes.
Ingestion of high doses can lead to rapid onset of effects on the
stomach while symptoms resulting from skin exposure may be delayed for
up to 12 hours. Complete recovery from acute poisoning takes at least
one week, but complete restoration of the blood to normal enzyme
(cholinestrase) levels may take up to three months (9).
The oral LD50 ranges from 6.2 to 12.5 mg/kg in male rats and from 1.9 to
2.5 mg/kg in female rats (12, 10). Weanling male rats have an oral LD50
of 5.4 mg/kg (10, 5). The dermal LD50 is 3.6 mg/kg for female rats and
15.9 mg/kg for male rats (4, 10). The inhalation LC50 for one hour is
180 ppb for male rats, and 90 ug/L for female rats (3).
CHRONIC TOXICITY
Disulfoton is rapidly absorbed through the skin. This chemical inhibits
cholinesterase, and, as a result, may affect the eyes, respiratory
system, and central nervous system (9). Continual daily absorption may
cause flu-like symptoms, loss of appetite, weakness, and uneasiness.
While repeated exposure to disulfoton may inhibit the cholinesterase
enzyme and thus interfere with the nervous system, 30-day human
exposures have not resulted in significant enzyme inhibition (10).
Workers chronically exposed to organo-phosphates, of which disulfoton is
a member, have developed irritability, delayed reaction times, anxiety,
slowness of thinking, and memory defects (9). Chronic exposure of
workers may also lead to cataracts.
Rats have survived daily doses of 0.5 mg/kg/day for 90 days. Some
studies have shown that rats can acquire a tolerance for the chemical,
so they are able to adjust to the lower cholinesterase levels resulting
from chronic lower level exposures (8).
Reproductive Effects
In a long-term reproduction study, 98.5% pure disulfoton was fed at
doses ranging from 0.05 to 0.5 mg/kg/day to both male and female albino
rats. At the high dose, the number of animals per litter was reduced by
21% in the first and third generations and a 10 to 25% lower pregnancy
rate was noted. Some third-generation litters whose parents were exposed
to this dose, developed fatty deposits and swelling in their livers.
Exposed adults and litters had a 60% to 70% inhibition of red blood cell
cholinesterase (10). This suggests that long-term exposures to high
doses of disulfoton may cause reproductive effects in humans.
Teratogenic Effects
In one study, pregnant rats were given disulfoton (98.2% pure) at doses
ranging from 0.1 to 1.0 mg/kg/day through a stomach tube during the
sensitive period of gestation. Cholinesterase activity was decreased. In
the fetuses, no developmental defects were seen except at high doses,
where incomplete bone development was noted (4, 10). In another study,
rabbits were given disulfoton (97.3% pure) during the sensitive period.
At the higher doses (1.5 and 2.0 mg/kg/day), the mothers experienced
tremors, incoordination, and death, while fetal growth was not affected
(10). These studies indicate that disulfoton is very unlikely to cause
birth defects in humans.

ECOLOGICAL EFFECTS
Disulfoton-containing products are highly toxic to cold and warm fish,
crab, shrimp, birds, and other wildlife (7, 8). The acute dietary LC50
for disulfoton in mallard ducks is 692 mg/kg, and 544 mg/kg in quail.
The EPA has stated that use of disulfoton on certain crops may pose a
risk to some aquatic and terrestrial endangered species (17).
------

You people don't have a clue as to what your doing and your mindlessness
affects everyone.

You don't have a clue as to what others are doing.

When I use Bayer's Rose & Flower Care, I dig it into the soil. No, I'm
not concerned at all about its effect on ground water. Because of
NATURAL minerals, the ground water in my area is toxic and unfit even
for irrigation, let alone unfit for human or animal ingestion.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

Charlie wrote in message
...
On Wed, 6 May 2009 20:19:34 -0500, "Freckles"
wrote:


"Phisherman" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 5 May 2009 00:08:50 -0500, "Freckles"
wrote:

I would like to use a systemic pesticide on my roses.

I've heard systemic pesticides can be very dangerous.

Anything misused can be dangerous. For example, water can be very
dangerous.


I've tried several different sprays and am not satisfied with the
results.


Not all systemic products are sprayed. Spraying can be hazardous due
to inhalation.


Can anyone recommend a brand of systemic pesticide that is not so
dangerous
to humans and pets?

There are Rose Food/Systemic products that are applied to the soil,
scratched in and the pesticide is taken up by the roots.

I use the Ortho product (Bayer makes one too) on my roses only. I am
willing to try other remedies, that is, if there is one that I have
not tried. Aphids are hard to control.




Thanks,

Freckles

I have ordered Bayer's systemic pesticide/food spikes.

Thanks for supporting a company that is poisoning my grandchildren and
the pollinators and a lot of other living things.


Supposedly one just shoves a spike into the ground next to the rose and it
will kill pests and feed the plant for up to 2 months.

Sprays of all kinds bother me. The thought of breathing any of them scares
me.

For Eff's sake......putting them in the water supply doesn't scare
you?

If the spikes work, I think that will be the easiest and safest way to
take
care of my roses.

Educate yourself, and/or quit trying to grow stuff that perhaps
shouldn't be grown. Damn.

If you think you have a problen with Bayer and their products complain to
your congressmen and Senators.

On 5/6/2009 6:19 PM, Freckles wrote:

I have ordered Bayer's systemic pesticide/food spikes.

Supposedly one just shoves a spike into the ground next to the rose and it
will kill pests and feed the plant for up to 2 months.

Sprays of all kinds bother me. The thought of breathing any of them scares
me.

If the spikes work, I think that will be the easiest and safest way to take
care of my roses.

Freckles

I use Bayer's granular Rose & Flower Care so that I can spread it over
much of each plant's root zone. I dig it in so that passing birds won't
think it's gravel for their digestion.

When you use spikes, be sure to focus your watering in an area around
each spike. Don't over-water. While roses like a lot of water, they
don't like a soggy soil.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

"see Organization header" (see Organization
header)" wrote in message
news
On 5/6/2009 6:19 PM, Freckles wrote:

I have ordered Bayer's systemic pesticide/food spikes.

Supposedly one just shoves a spike into the ground next to the rose and
it
will kill pests and feed the plant for up to 2 months.

Sprays of all kinds bother me. The thought of breathing any of them
scares
me.

If the spikes work, I think that will be the easiest and safest way to
take
care of my roses.

Freckles

I use Bayer's granular Rose & Flower Care so that I can spread it over
much of each plant's root zone. I dig it in so that passing birds won't
think it's gravel for their digestion.

When you use spikes, be sure to focus your watering in an area around
each spike. Don't over-water. While roses like a lot of water, they
don't like a soggy soil.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

About 25 years ago I lived in Culver City, California.

I had a rose garden with about a dozen T roses. They grew beautifully and I
never had to use any pesticides or anything else except for an occasional
dose of fertilizer. Texas is a different story.