"Sheila" wrote in message
.. .
brooklyn1 wrote:
"Sheila" wrote:
at least we don't have to fence our new trees.



Depends on the tree and its size... fruit trees, whether ornamental or
not, are at greater risk... but after like five years the saplings grow
tall enough that the fences can be removed. I don't mind the fences, if
it's something I want to grow and don't want eaten by critters then I
fence... there'd be no way for me to have a vegetable garden otherwise.
And still there are the birds, so I also net. I'm not into conservatory
gardening.


Aw, so you have the same problem with deer that I do. We are having to
fence in our back yard, but it is certainly worth it to live in the
country. I grew up on a working cattle farm and missed the country when I
had to live close to a city for work. Now, I'm able to live in the
country again.


Well, what's an old cattle farmer gonna care about a little fencing. But I
don't consider the deer a problem, they were here first and have every right
to be here. If I wanted to live in a sterile environment then I had no
business moving to the country for retirement. I enjoy looking out my
windows and seeing one kind of critter or another... I don't care if a few
rabbits eat my lettuce, I just plant extra. I actually buy carrots and
bread for the deer, I can afford an extra $20 bucks a week... I get far more
enjoyment from the critters than from some stupid movie... last time I paid
to see a movie they were showing double features at the drive-in and it cost
less then $5 bucks with popcorn, and with a fifteen year old gal who'd let
me feel her tits.

In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

Good-bye from this thread. NO, I'm not abandoning rec.gardens. But if
you post a message there that I seem to ignore, I might not have seen
it.

And thus another Monsanto Dracula shrinks from the illumination of
enlightenment. Good riddance. People who can't justify their follies,
should insinuate themselves into the shadows. Follies in the sense of
its' French meaning, "madness". What else could one call the attacking
of our life support system on this planet? This planet that bore us and
cared for us. And what do these fools complain of, that they are
reprimanded for poisoning the air, the water, the soil, and the food.
Chemical fertilizers kill soil. Pesticides kill soil. Herbicides kill
soil. GMO "Roundup" ready plants allow them to kill more soil.
Do they make sensible counter arguments? No. Because there are none.
Pesticides allow you to kill a pest at little effort but these fools
don't want to consider the consequences. The pests can be controlled in
other manners. Like David who wishes to spray poisons for a cosmetic
problem. David is a southern Californian to who appearances are
everything. Worth more than life itself apparently. For any pest there
is a solution that won't poison the environment. You may have to make
more of an effort, but you will be saving the planet.
-----

But back to the polyphenols, which may hint at the nature of that link.
Why in the world should organically grown blackberries or corn contain
significantly more of these compounds? The authors of Davis study
haven't settled the question, but they offer two suggest theories. The
reason plants produce these compounds in the first place is to defend
themselves against pests and diseases; the more pressure from pathogens,
the more polyphenols a plant will produce. These compounds, then, are
the products of natural selection and, more specifically, the
coevolutionary relationship between plants and the species that prey on
them. Who would have guessed that humans evolved to profit from a diet
of these plant pesticides? Or that we would invent an agriculture that
then deprived us of them?

pg. 79
The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael Pollan
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

On 5/7/2009 1:46 PM, Billy wrote:
In article ,
see Organization header (see Organization
header)" wrote:

No, I'm
not concerned at all about its effect on ground water. Because of
NATURAL minerals, the ground water in my area is toxic and unfit even
for irrigation, let alone unfit for human or animal ingestion.

Got your excuse all memorized, huh?

I don't need to memorize facts. I can look them up. Excuses -- like
lies -- have to be memorized.

And that has what to do with poisoning the biosphere? No, your not going
to grow vegetable in the Utah Salt Flats but that's no reason to
consider poisoning the area further. It's not just about YOU, Dave. It's
about the planet, and topsoil, and the survival of homo sapiens.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article ,
"David E. Ross" wrote:

In other words, the program promotes environmentally-sound practices,
which sometimes might require the use of non-natural materials or even
toxics.

I know that you aren't reading this Dave, which is good because it might
be embarrassing for you but the UC IPM suggests
Biological Control, Cultural Control, and Physical Control before they
mention Chemical Control. But then, as we've seen, this is only to
protect the plant from cosmetic damage. You know, you might be better
off giving your lemon trees a little fish emulsion instead. Too bad you
won't read this sage advice.

Now, are you truly gone?

Oh yes, I'm the great pretender
Pretending that I'm doing well
My need is such; I pretend too much
I'm lonely but no one can tell.

Oh yes, I'm the great pretender
A drift in a world of my own
I play the game; but to my real shame
You've let me to dream all alone.

Too real is this feeling of make believe
Too real when I feel what my heart can't conceal.

Oh yes I'm the great pretender
Just laughing and gay like a clown
I seem to be what I'm not; you see
I'm wearing my heart like a crown
Pretending that you're still around.

Too real is this feeling of make believe
Too real when I feel what my heart can't conceal

Yes I'm the great pretender
Just laughing and gay like a clown
I seem to be what I'm not you see
I'm wearing my heart like a crown
Pretending that I'm not a clown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtXnUEW_OXw
--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article ,
"brooklyn1" wrote:

"Sheila" wrote in message
.. .
brooklyn1 wrote:
"Sheila" wrote:
at least we don't have to fence our new trees.



Depends on the tree and its size... fruit trees, whether ornamental or
not, are at greater risk... but after like five years the saplings grow
tall enough that the fences can be removed. I don't mind the fences, if
it's something I want to grow and don't want eaten by critters then I
fence... there'd be no way for me to have a vegetable garden otherwise.
And still there are the birds, so I also net. I'm not into conservatory
gardening.


Aw, so you have the same problem with deer that I do. We are having to
fence in our back yard, but it is certainly worth it to live in the
country. I grew up on a working cattle farm and missed the country when I
had to live close to a city for work. Now, I'm able to live in the
country again.


Well, what's an old cattle farmer gonna care about a little fencing. But I
don't consider the deer a problem, they were here first and have every right
to be here. If I wanted to live in a sterile environment then I had no
business moving to the country for retirement. I enjoy looking out my
windows and seeing one kind of critter or another... I don't care if a few
rabbits eat my lettuce, I just plant extra. I actually buy carrots and
bread for the deer, I can afford an extra $20 bucks a week... I get far more
enjoyment from the critters than from some stupid movie... last time I paid
to see a movie they were showing double features at the drive-in and it cost
less then $5 bucks with popcorn, and with a fifteen year old gal who'd let
me feel her tits.

And I bet you put her in the truck to get in. Class act.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

In article , Charlie wrote:

On Fri, 08 May 2009 01:45:16 GMT, "flatlyn1"
wrote:


"Billy" fabricated
"David E. Ross" wrote:

Mostly NATURAL sufites and sulfates. (How many times do I have to say
that they occur naturally?) There are also nodules of phosphate that
explode spontaneously.

You don't have to add to the problem.


Why don't you STFU, some 31 years of roses who can't show us even one
friggin' petal.. ****ing LIAR, LIAR, LIAR, yer pants are on fire, B I L L Y
L I A R!
Boy, he's just a pin feather away from being a full tilt loon.


shelly, you should have stopped three drinks ago.
Drinks? Who said drinks? Just a small bucket of margaritas for me
please;O)

Charlie
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

Dave,

I have to agree with you. There seems to be at least one "Dunce" on the
organic side of the argument. I will no longer be baited by this know
nothing.

EJ in NJ

David E. Ross wrote:
On 5/4/2009 10:08 PM, Freckles wrote:
I would like to use a systemic pesticide on my roses.

I've heard systemic pesticides can be very dangerous.

I've tried several different sprays and am not satisfied with the results.

Can anyone recommend a brand of systemic pesticide that is not so dangerous
to humans and pets?

Thanks,

Freckles




Okay. This thread has generated more heat than light.

On one side are the organic-only dogmatics, who can't accept that (1)
some natural, organic materials are more toxic than their artificial,
non-organic replacements. On the other side are the "the rest of you be
damned" polluters, equally dogmatic. Those of us who are pragmatists
and sometimes use organic methods in our gardens and sometime do not
have been insulted by both sides.

I have kill-filed this thread and will no longer participate.

I have kill-filed at least one participant who has a compulsion to
answer every single message, whether he can add anything useful or not;
instead, he only adds rudness and insults. I have kill-filed another
one whose prose is more toxic than anything I could mix with the
chemicals in my garage.

Two blocks from my home is a community garden with an "organic only"
rule. I don't participate because not everything I do in my own garden
follows organic principles. The people who do garden there are my
friends. They accept why I don't have a plot in the community garden.
They don't try to change me, and they don't shun me.

That's the way participants in this newsgroup should behave, not as if
they are prosylitizing for a religion. Unfortunately, several
participants in this thread have been acting as if theirs is the only
way to God.

Good-bye from this thread. NO, I'm not abandoning rec.gardens. But if
you post a message there that I seem to ignore, I might not have seen
it. News reader filters can be very effective.

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Freckles" wrote:

Educate yourself, and/or quit trying to grow stuff that perhaps
shouldn't be grown. Damn.

If you think you have a problen with Bayer and their products complain to
your congressmen and Senators.

It is often said that a word to the wise is sufficient, but that leaves
you out. No, the best way to deal with Bayer, Monsanto, Dow, et al. is
to stop buying their products. Your obviously not intelligent enough to
learn but others are. Why do you think the first family is going
"ORGANIC"? So we organic types will proselytize and spread our word, and
maybe that will give dullards, like yourself, a chance to reconsider.

Obama went organic, because it was the politically correct thing to do.
Oddly he chose a Redwood swing set for the White House. Very un-pc.

On Thu, 07 May 2009 22:06:36 -0500, Charlie wrote:


How tiresome, your excuse to add to the planetary toxic load because
you, and others of your kind, choose to live in a rather unihabitable
area. Eff me, sounds like a toxic waste area, let's use your backyard
for nuke waste storage. An area that wasn't meant to support the load
to which it is being subjected.


Rather a Luddite approach. Tornado alley would be deserted. The entire
Ring of Fire would be empty, hell, even the Egyptians would have never
thrived near the Nile.

Boron

In article ,
Boron Elgar wrote:

On Thu, 07 May 2009 22:06:36 -0500, Charlie wrote:


How tiresome, your excuse to add to the planetary toxic load because
you, and others of your kind, choose to live in a rather unihabitable
area. Eff me, sounds like a toxic waste area, let's use your backyard
for nuke waste storage. An area that wasn't meant to support the load
to which it is being subjected.


Rather a Luddite approach. Tornado alley would be deserted. The entire
Ring of Fire would be empty, hell, even the Egyptians would have never
thrived near the Nile.

Boron

Why all the fuss ?

http://www.happyplanetindex.org/

Look at the map and then think 1900 Imperialist's and then who are they
and what color on the map. Some things never change that much.

Bill who wonders what the opposite of a Luddite or Anarchist is ?
IMF, Imperialist's , Colonialist guess there are more.

Good Book by Andrew Bard Schmookler

"Debating The Good Society" subtitled "A quest To Bridge America's
Moral Divide"


http://www.amazon.com/Debating-Good-...s/dp/026219414
7/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241793557&sr=1-4

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Not all who wander are lost.
- J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973)

In article ,
"brooklyn1" wrote:

"Sheila" wrote in message
.. .
brooklyn1 wrote:
"Sheila" wrote:
at least we don't have to fence our new trees.



Depends on the tree and its size... fruit trees, whether ornamental or
not, are at greater risk... but after like five years the saplings grow
tall enough that the fences can be removed. I don't mind the fences, if
it's something I want to grow and don't want eaten by critters then I
fence... there'd be no way for me to have a vegetable garden otherwise.
And still there are the birds, so I also net. I'm not into conservatory
gardening.


Aw, so you have the same problem with deer that I do. We are having to
fence in our back yard, but it is certainly worth it to live in the
country. I grew up on a working cattle farm and missed the country when I
had to live close to a city for work. Now, I'm able to live in the
country again.


Well, what's an old cattle farmer gonna care about a little fencing. But I
don't consider the deer a problem, they were here first and have every right
to be here. If I wanted to live in a sterile environment then I had no
business moving to the country for retirement. I enjoy looking out my
windows and seeing one kind of critter or another... I don't care if a few
rabbits eat my lettuce, I just plant extra. I actually buy carrots and
bread for the deer, I can afford an extra $20 bucks a week... I get far more
enjoyment from the critters than from some stupid movie... last time I paid
to see a movie they were showing double features at the drive-in and it cost
less then $5 bucks with popcorn, and with a fifteen year old gal who'd let
me feel her tits.

And I bet you put her in the trunk to get in. Class act.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

On Fri, 08 May 2009 10:41:52 -0400, Bill
wrote:

In article ,
Boron Elgar wrote:

On Thu, 07 May 2009 22:06:36 -0500, Charlie wrote:


How tiresome, your excuse to add to the planetary toxic load because
you, and others of your kind, choose to live in a rather unihabitable
area. Eff me, sounds like a toxic waste area, let's use your backyard
for nuke waste storage. An area that wasn't meant to support the load
to which it is being subjected.


Rather a Luddite approach. Tornado alley would be deserted. The entire
Ring of Fire would be empty, hell, even the Egyptians would have never
thrived near the Nile.

Boron

Why all the fuss ?

http://www.happyplanetindex.org/

Look at the map and then think 1900 Imperialist's and then who are they
and what color on the map. Some things never change that much.

You're over the edge and into fanaticism, not even to mention taking
this entire topic 12 ways to Sunday in different directions, each of
which seems to serve some political agenda. Really, this is one load
of over-ripe manure and not one that will benefit any plants.

I have a great idea. Go outside and play in the dirt.

Boron

In article ,
Boron Elgar wrote:

On Fri, 08 May 2009 10:41:52 -0400, Bill
wrote:

In article ,
Boron Elgar wrote:

On Thu, 07 May 2009 22:06:36 -0500, Charlie wrote:


How tiresome, your excuse to add to the planetary toxic load because
you, and others of your kind, choose to live in a rather unihabitable
area. Eff me, sounds like a toxic waste area, let's use your backyard
for nuke waste storage. An area that wasn't meant to support the load
to which it is being subjected.


Rather a Luddite approach. Tornado alley would be deserted. The entire
Ring of Fire would be empty, hell, even the Egyptians would have never
thrived near the Nile.

Boron

Why all the fuss ?

http://www.happyplanetindex.org/

Look at the map and then think 1900 Imperialist's and then who are they
and what color on the map. Some things never change that much.

You're over the edge and into fanaticism, not even to mention taking
this entire topic 12 ways to Sunday in different directions, each of
which seems to serve some political agenda. Really, this is one load
of over-ripe manure and not one that will benefit any plants.

I have a great idea. Go outside and play in the dirt.

Boron

Over the edge of what and what is 12 ways to sunday ?

Incoherent but perhaps it sort of strikes a chord and potential whirls
about.

Bill

--
Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

Not all who wander are lost.
- J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973)

In article ,
Bill wrote:

In article ,
Boron Elgar wrote:

On Fri, 08 May 2009 10:41:52 -0400, Bill
wrote:

In article ,
Boron Elgar wrote:

On Thu, 07 May 2009 22:06:36 -0500, Charlie wrote:


How tiresome, your excuse to add to the planetary toxic load because
you, and others of your kind, choose to live in a rather unihabitable
area. Eff me, sounds like a toxic waste area, let's use your backyard
for nuke waste storage. An area that wasn't meant to support the load
to which it is being subjected.


Rather a Luddite approach. Tornado alley would be deserted. The entire
Ring of Fire would be empty, hell, even the Egyptians would have never
thrived near the Nile.

Boron

Why all the fuss ?

http://www.happyplanetindex.org/

Look at the map and then think 1900 Imperialist's and then who are they
and what color on the map. Some things never change that much.

You're over the edge and into fanaticism, not even to mention taking
this entire topic 12 ways to Sunday in different directions, each of
which seems to serve some political agenda. Really, this is one load
of over-ripe manure and not one that will benefit any plants.

I have a great idea. Go outside and play in the dirt.

Boron

Over the edge of what and what is 12 ways to sunday ?

Incoherent but perhaps it sort of strikes a chord and potential whirls
about.

Bill

I'm afraid all the facts have put the troglodytes into bunker mode. If
they don't understand it, they think it's an attack. I think Boron
missed the point about the ecological foot print and since the west
consumes the majority of the power in the world, a quarter of the worlds
energy. That is a very large denominator and will give a small ratio
when "life expectancy and life satisfaction/ecological foot print" is
computed. But it is very sobering to see France listed near the bottom,
for the same reason as the USA. Would I want to be a Columbian because I
would know that I had a small ecological foot print? I don't think I'm
ready for sainthood yet.

A more familar table of quality of life can be found at
http://www.il-ireland.com/il/qofl2008/ but this doesn't include the cost
to the planet. It doesn't reflect sustainability and sustainability was
what we were talking about. The fact that there are areas of the world
that are inhospitable to humanity, is besides the point. The point is
can humanity continue to be inhospitable to the planet?

Good, thought-provoking site. Thanks.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the
moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

On May 6, 10:36*pm, Charlie wrote:
On Tue, 5 May 2009 20:30:04 -0500, "Freckles"
wrote:

I just order some Bayer insect control plus fertilizer plant spikes which
seem to be just what I want.

Bayer.....patoooie and effem. *Baby and bee killing bastids. *I worked
for those effers for four years in the late seventies and early
eighties, (and am still ashamed to admit to being a Magic Christian
during that period) and they dealt death. *Worse now.

Heh... guess who invented heroin.

They meant well enough, I guess.