I am a very new rose grower (I hope). I have read that Miracle Gro
plant food (the kind you mix in water), and fish emulsion are good basics.

Can I mix the two in one gallon of water , for one application ?

Are there better feeding products ? Is the water soluable Miracle Gro
better than a pelletized fertilizer (which I know would last longer, but
not as fast acting, right ?)

Thanks for any **basic** fertilizing tips !!

James

James wrote:
I am a very new rose grower (I hope). I have read that Miracle Gro
plant food (the kind you mix in water), and fish emulsion are good basics.

Can I mix the two in one gallon of water , for one application ?

Are there better feeding products ? Is the water soluable Miracle Gro
better than a pelletized fertilizer (which I know would last longer, but
not as fast acting, right ?)

Thanks for any **basic** fertilizing tips !!

James



I suppose you could mix them together, but I can't see why you'd want to
- MG and fish emulsion simultaneously is a awful lot of nitrogen at
once. Actually, if you want to use the liquid MG, use it every other
time you feed, in alternation with the fish emulsion. The fish emulsion
has many other soil benefits that the MG doesn't.

Tony

Thanks Tony !!

Do you think the MG is equally good , compared to a pellitized fertilizer ?

As you suggest, I will apply MG and fish emulsion as alternate feedings.

James

James wrote:
Thanks Tony !!

Do you think the MG is equally good , compared to a pellitized fertilizer ?

As you suggest, I will apply MG and fish emulsion as alternate feedings.

James


In my opinion (and you will get others, believe me), the question should
be "Which pelletized fertilizer, and for what plant?" You say you are a
rose grower (I've never grown roses). I prefer to garden as organically
as possible, but I am not 100% organic. I'm guessing there is a good
pelletized completely natural rose fertilizer, or perhaps several of
them, out there, if you want to go that route. Talk to a nurseryman
(not the 17-year-old kid working in Home Depot's garden center). Decide
for yourself what you want to use.

IME, Miracle Grow is most useful diluted to 1/2 strength as a transplant
solution (it's great for that), and for things that benefit from an
occasional foliar feeding. A solid fertilizer properly mixed into the
soil may feed more uniformly over a longer period of time.

And before you follow ANY of the above advice, go to Google, type in
"growing roses", and you'll turn enough articles to keep you busy for
several evenings. As you go from source to source, you'll begin to see
patterns emerge: Basic points all the authors seem to agree on (note
those well!) and other, seemingly more contradictory advice (get back to
that later).

Tony

On Sat, 24 Apr 2010 10:50:11 -0400, "James"
wrote:

I am a very new rose grower (I hope). I have read that Miracle Gro
plant food (the kind you mix in water), and fish emulsion are good basics.

Can I mix the two in one gallon of water , for one application ?

Are there better feeding products ? Is the water soluable Miracle Gro
better than a pelletized fertilizer (which I know would last longer, but
not as fast acting, right ?)

Thanks for any **basic** fertilizing tips !!

James


Roses prefer regular organic feedings and lots of it. Alternate
feedings between fish emulsion and rotted cow manure every 3 weeks
during the growing season. For each large established plant, I use 2
T. fish emulsion or 2 cups rotted cow manure. Back off the
fertilizers 2 months before the first frost. Use fast-acting
inorganic fertilizers sparingly, strategically or not at all.

I dont like to mix fertilizers--you might end up with undesirable
results. Good luck with your roses, they can be a challenge.

Thanks to Tony and Phisherman for very good points. I will take these
points , and see how things go !!

James

James wrote:

Do you think the MG is equally good , compared to a pellitized fertilizer ?

As you suggest, I will apply MG and fish emulsion as alternate feedings.

http://www.growingroses.org/

Very nice site, Brooklyn1 !!

Thanks !!

James

In article ,
"James" wrote:

I am a very new rose grower (I hope). I have read that Miracle Gro
plant food (the kind you mix in water), and fish emulsion are good basics.

Can I mix the two in one gallon of water , for one application ?

Are there better feeding products ? Is the water soluable Miracle Gro
better than a pelletized fertilizer (which I know would last longer, but
not as fast acting, right ?)

Thanks for any **basic** fertilizing tips !!

James

Hellloo.

"Are there better feeding products?" A damn fine question that.
so by the numbers, let's take it from the beginning.

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1
p.26

"Negative impacts on the soil food web
Chemical fertilizers negatively impact the soil food web by killing off
entire_ portions of it. What gardener hasn't seen what table salt does
to a slug? Fertilizers are salts; they suck the water out of the
bacteria, fungi, protozoa, and_ nematodes in the soil. Since these
microbes are at the very foundation of the_ soil food web nutrient
system, you have to keep adding fertilizer once you start_ using it
regularly. The microbiology is missing and not there to do its job,
feeding the plants.

It makes sense that once the bacteria, fungi, nematodes, and protozoa
are_ gone, other members of the food web disappear as well. Earthworms,
for example, lacking food and irritated by the synthetic nitrates in
soluble nitrogen_ fertilizers, move out. Since they are major shredders
of organic material, their_ absence is a great loss. Without the
activity and diversity of a healthy food web, you not only impact the
nutrient system but all the other things a healthy soil_ food web
brings. Soil structure deteriorates, watering can become problematic,"_
pathogens and pests establish themselves and, worst of all, gardening
becomes_ a lot more work than it needs to be.

If the salt-based chemical fertilizers don't kill portions of the soil
food web, rototilling will. This gardening rite of spring breaks up
fungal hyphae, decimates worms, and rips and crushes arthropods. It
destroys soil structure and_ eventually saps soil of necessary air.
Again, this means more work for you in_ the end. Air pollution,
pesticides, fungicides, and herbicides, too, kill off important members
of the food web community or ³chase" them away. Any chain_ is only as
strong as its weakest link: if there is a gap in the soil food web, the
system will break down and stop functioning properly."
----

Google "Dead Zones" to see what nitrate fertilizers are doing to the
oceans.
Continuing . . .
"Soil life produces soil nutrients
When any member of a soil food web dies, it becomes fodder for other
members of the community. The nutrients in these bodies are passed on to
other_ members of the community. A larger predator may eat them alive,
or they may _be decayed after they die. One way or the other, fungi and
bacteria get involved,_ be it decaying the organism directly or working
on the dung of the successful_ eater. It makes no difference. Nutrients
are preserved and eventually are retained in the bodies of even the
smallest fungi and bacteria. When these are in_the rhizosphere, they
release nutrients in plant-available form when they, in_ turn, are
consumed or die."
-----

Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture
(Paperback)
by Toby Hemenway
http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-S...ulture/dp/1603
580298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271266976&sr=1-1

p.78
By the time the final rank of soil organisms, the microbes, is finished
swarming over the leaf and digesting it, most of the consumable
carbon‹that which is not tied up as humus‹is gone. Little remains but
inorganic (non-carbon-containing) compounds, such as phosphate, nitrate,
sulfate, and other chemicals that most gardeners will recognize from the
printing on bags of fertilizer. That's right: Microbes make plant
fertilizer right in the soil. This process of stripping the inorganic
plant food from organic, carbon-containing compounds and returning it to
the soil is called mineralization. Minerals‹the nitrates and phosphates
and others‹are tiny, usually highly mobile molecules

p.79
that dissolve easily in water. This means that, once the minerals in
organic debris are released or fertilizer is poured onto the soil, these
mineral nutrients don't hang around long but are easily leached out
of soil by rain.

Conventional wisdom has it that plant root are the main imbibers of soil
minerals and that plants can only absorb these minerals (fertilizers) if
they are in a water-soluble form, but neither premise is
true. Roots occupy only a tiny fraction of the soil, so most soil
minerals‹and most chemical fertilizers‹never make direct contact with
roots. Unless these isolated, lonely minerals are snapped up by
humus or soil organisms, they leach away. It's the humus and the life in
the soil that keep the earth fertile by holding on to nutrients that
would otherwise wash out of the soil into streams, lakes, and
eventually the ocean.

Agricultural chemists have missed the boat with their soluble
fertilizers; they're doing things the hard way by using an engineering
approach rather than an ecological one. Yes, plants are quite capable
of absorbing the water-soluble minerals in chemical fertilizer. But
plants often use only 10 percent of the fertilizer that's applied and
rarely more than 50 percent. The rest washes into the groundwater,
which is why so many wells in our farmlands are polluted with toxic
levels of nitrates.

Applying fertilizer the way nature does‹tied to organic matter‹uses far
less fertilizer and also saves the energy consumed in producing,
shipping and applying it. It also supports a broad assortment of soil
life, which widens the base of our living pyramid and enhances rather
than reduces biodiversity. In addition, plants get a balanced diet
instead of being force-fed and are healthier. It's well documented that
plants grown on soil rich in organic matter are more disease- and
insect-resistant than plants in carbon-poor soil.

In short, a properly tuned ecological garden rarely needs soluble
fertilizers because plants and soil animals can knock nutrients loose
from humus and organic debris (or clay, another nutrient storage
source) using secretions of mild acid and enzymes. Most of the nutrients
in healthy soil are "insoluble yet available," in the words of soil
scientist William Albrecht. These nutrients, bound to organic matter or
cycling among fast-living microbes,won't' wash out of the soil yet can
be gently coaxed loose ‹ or traded for sugar secretions‹ by roots. And
the plants take up only what they need. This turns out to be very
little, since plants are 85 percent water, and much of the rest is
carbon from the air. A fat half-pound tomato, for example, only draws
about 50 milligrams of phosphorus and 500 milligrams of potassium from
the soil. That's easy to replace in a humus-rich garden that uses
mulches, composts, and nutrient-accumulating plants."
------

To recap
Chemical fertilizers (henceforth referred to as chemferts) are made from
petroleum, for which we have gone to war. Chemferts are water soluble,
and to insure that your plant gets enough chemferts, excess is added to
your soil, which leaches away to pollute local water supplies, and
create huge dead zones in the oceans where food for human beings once
lived. It does this after first killing off a good deal of the flora and
fauna in your garden soil. The more you use chemferts, the more the soil
is depleted, and the more chemferts will be needed in the future to
obtain the same results, and of cour$e chemfert$ co$t MONEY.

Mulching your soil, will cost less in the long run , if not immediately.
Mulch can be dried leaves, lawn clippings, even old newspapers (although
they do lack charm). You could plant Chinese white clover (perennial)
around your roses to provide nitrogen to the soil, or one of dozens of
other plants. (See the books above)

If you prefer to use manure for feeding your soil, you could try

Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit Sheep
N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4 .70
P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4 .30
K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60 .90
Http://www.plantea.com/manuer.htm

Manure Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
N 3 5
P 1 1
K 2 1

The bottom line is you damage your soil, the biosphere, our world, when
you use petroleum based chemferts. If you grow sustainably,
ecologically, organically, you will leave the world a better place.

The books referenced above are available at better libraries everywhere.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html

Billy, your rambling, psychotic , cut and paste response included the
following claim:



"Chemical fertilizers (henceforth referred to as chemferts) are made from
petroleum, for which we have gone to war."



Since you have made this claim in public, can you provide proof ? I am a
student of world history and world events, and I know of no instance in
which the United States of American has gone to war for petroleum products.
Of course, there is plenty of oil in Iraq, but we have not taken one gallon
of it yet, and I see no administration plans to do so.

Do you have some sort of mental disorder, obssessing on gasoline products ?

Do you also hate the United States of America ? Part of the Hate America
First crowd ??

Is there some medication that you may have skipped today ?

James

"James" wrote in message
...
I am a very new rose grower (I hope). I have read that Miracle Gro
plant food (the kind you mix in water), and fish emulsion are good
basics.

Can I mix the two in one gallon of water , for one application ?

Are there better feeding products ? Is the water soluable Miracle Gro
better than a pelletized fertilizer (which I know would last longer, but
not as fast acting, right ?)

Thanks for any **basic** fertilizing tips !!

James



I have been using 'Bayer 3 in One' for several years now, expensive but easy
and effective. See at their website,
http://goo.gl/tO5n

thanks piedmont !!

On 4/24/10 7:50 AM, James wrote:
I am a very new rose grower (I hope). I have read that Miracle Gro
plant food (the kind you mix in water), and fish emulsion are good basics.

Can I mix the two in one gallon of water , for one application ?

Are there better feeding products ? Is the water soluable Miracle Gro
better than a pelletized fertilizer (which I know would last longer, but
not as fast acting, right ?)

Thanks for any **basic** fertilizing tips !!

James



Roses like abundant nutrients. I follow this schedule --

First feeding of the season, just as leaf buds begin to open, for each
plant:
small handful of ammonium sulfate, for quick nitrogen
large handful of gypsum (calcium sulfate), to break up clay soil
2 TBS iron sulfate, for the iron needed to create chlorophyl
1 TBS Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate), to promote new shoots
You will notice that all of these contain sulfur. My soil is alkaline,
but roses prefer acid soil.

One month later:
Bayer's 2 in 1 Rose and Flower Care
This combines fertilizer and systemic insecticide. Although I don't use
this as frequently as the label recommends, I never see aphids, spider
mites, or similar insects; thus, I never have to spray.

One month later:
small handful of ammonium sulfate

Repeat monthly, alternating between the Bayer and the ammonium sulfate.

I cut all amounts in half for a shrublet rose growing in a large flower
pot, and increase all amounts 50% for three climbing roses.
The last feeding is not later than 15 October since I want growth to
slow before I prune around New Year.

Notice that phosphorus -- either bone meal or superphosphate -- is
missing. I stir about two handsful of superphosphate into the bottom
of each planting hole and then cover it with a little soil that has no
fertilizer at all before planting. This should last many years since
phosphorus does not readily disolve and leach away. Instead, it must be
placed where roots will find it (but not where very new roots are
starting to grow). This year, I used 1/4-inch steel rebar to poke holes
around some roses that were planted more than 20 years ago. I filled
the holes with bone meal, which was less likely to clog the holes than
the granular superphosphate and less likely to impact any roots that the
rebar directly hit. Phosphorus promotes flowering and root growth.

By the way, do not feed roses in the first year when they are planted,
other than phosphorus in the planting holes. You want the roots to grow
(phosphorus) and become thoroughly established before you promote
foliage (nitrogen).

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean
Sunset Zone: 21 -- interior Santa Monica Mountains with some ocean
influence (USDA 10a, very close to Sunset Zone 19)
Gardening diary at http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary

"James" wrote in message
net...
thanks piedmont !!



Another must do, keep debri away from base of plant so that air can flow and
keep it dry and trim so that the stem create a circle and do not overlap, so
once again, air flow through the circular center is helped.

--
regards, piedmont (michael)
The Practical BBQ'r - http://sites.google.com/site/thepracticalbbqr/
(mawil55) Hardiness Zone 7-8

In article ,
"James" wrote:

Billy, your rambling, psychotic , cut and paste response included the
following claim:



"Chemical fertilizers (henceforth referred to as chemferts) are made from
petroleum, for which we have gone to war."



Since you have made this claim in public, can you provide proof ? I am a
student of world history and world events, and I know of no instance in
which the United States of American has gone to war for petroleum products.
Of course, there is plenty of oil in Iraq, but we have not taken one gallon
of it yet, and I see no administration plans to do so.
Well, you got me there. It's probably just a coincidence that most of
the natural gas deposits are around the Caspian Sea, and the Caucus
Mountains, and that Afghanistan straddles the intended pipeline to get
it out.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/nat_gas.html

At least I didn't mention the 5 military bases that we are setting up
next to Venezuela, which has the greatest oil reserves in the world, oh,
damn.

You are quite right, there is no reason to get into why coalition forces
left the Baghdad museum unprotected, while it threw a cordon of troops
around the oil ministry, or Iraq's history of pumping its own oil, that
will now be produced by foreigners, but this is getting off the topic of
what fertilizer will work best for you.

Do you have some sort of mental disorder, obssessing on gasoline products ?
Loss of top soil, global warming, insecticides, Operation Iraqi
Liberation, industrial chemicals in our drinking water, no, no, I don't
think so.

Do you also hate the United States of America ? Part of the Hate America
First crowd ??
Love the country, I just don't think that the populous and the
leadership are on the same page. You think the plutocrates are America?
Hmmm.

Is there some medication that you may have skipped today ?
I take them after dinner;O)

James



But moving along, I'm surprised that you, a gardener, are unfamiliar
with how chemferts are made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Haber
Fritz Haber (9 December 1868 * 29 January 1934) was a German chemist,
who received the Nobel Prize in Chemistry in 1918 for his development
for synthesizing ammonia, important for fertilizers and explosives.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process
The Haber process, also called the Haber*Bosch process, is the nitrogen
fixation reaction of nitrogen gas and hydrogen gas, over an enriched
iron or ruthenium catalyst, to produce ammonia.

As mentioned, chemferts like ammonium nitrate (NH4+ and NO3-) are salts
that kill some microbes, leaving the rest of them in jeopardy, you did
read the report that I prepared for you, didn't you?

The over application of chemferts speeding up the disappearance of
organic material from the soil, requiring ever larger applications of
chemferts. This excessive application of chemferts poisons potable
water, as in our mid-west, and creates huge dead zones in the ocean at
the mouths of rivers, that used to teem with sea food for human
consumption.

That bit on humus is also very important because it conserves water, and
only about .35% of the water in the world is drinkable, but then you
probably knew that.

And the report boiled down to: you could leave the world in worse or
better shape than you found it. It is your choice, but all of us, and
your descendants will have to live with it.

Remember, all the material is in:

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb.../dp/0881927775
/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1

Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture
(Paperback)
by Toby Hemenway
http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-S...ulture/dp/1603
580298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271266976&sr=1-1

Oh, yeah there's a couple of good riffs in:
The Omnivore's Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals by Michael Pollan
http://www.amazon.com/Omnivores-Dile...ls/dp/01430385
83/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815576&sr=1-1
about using petroleum for fertilizer p. 41-47, and p. 146-9.
Michael Pollan opines that it's a shame that we can't drink the oil,
because calorie for calorie, it would be cheaper than using it for
fertilizer.

No, there's no need to thank me.

Is there something else that I could help you with?
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arn3lF5XSUg
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Zinn/HZinn_page.html