nahhh.. I have seen any of the guys cutting our trees geared up like that either. I
like to watch em swarm up into the trees and then begins the very slow deliberate
topping out. the greatest safety factor seems to be planning the cut, checking to
make sure there is no obstruction, thinking again and then making the cut. while up
the tree it is a whole lot easier to have that limb come swinging back and knock ya
off the perch. Ingrid

(Roy) wrote:
Try and put
all that gear on and work in the woods in the hot souths humid
weather and see how long you last. They may do it up in the great
white north and some other places up north working for companies and
mandated by OSHA, but its rare to ever see them in all that protective
equipment.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I agree, and chain saw blades are cheap, we have several and get THEM professionally
sharpened. Ingrid

(Babberney) wrote:
As for the OP, I think a cheap electric saw will do everything the guy
wanted, wont get gummed up and be hard to start if it sits a long
time, and doesn't have enough power to get beyond most users' control.
As someone said, you will need to learn to sharpen a chain or be
prepared to buy them a lot, especially if you will be cutting things
off near the ground (dirt and rocks wreak havoc on chains).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

The message
from (DavesVideo) contains these words:

Roy

Well I would say the utility companies that clear right of ways, as
well as the largest Arborist and trimmin company in the USA Asplundt,
as well as Davey Tree, rarely if ever do I see them using chainsaw
chaps.

That's why I did a double take at Janet's post. For 25 years my father had a
logging busines in upstate new York and I had never even heard of chainsaw
pants.

I live in rural Scotland, where there's a big forestry industry and
constant work clearing utility lines etc. Those people all wear full
protection. Remote-area access to medical help can be slow.

We have strict work-safety legislation in the UK; employers who fail
to implement it can face closure, prosecution for failing to prevent
injury, compensation claims etc. High-risk industries are likely to
insist on safety-compliance by workers, as a condition of employment.

YMMV.

Janet.

Only consumer grade saws are required to have the anti kick back or
it should really be called, reduced kick back chain and asymetrical
bars..If a lumber man or pulp wooder had to have these devices they
never would get any wood cut. All chain sold by home builder supply
and garden centers is backyard user chain, and is of the reducxed
kickback variety. Go to a real chainsaw place that caters to the
professional and see if they equip the saws with this junk. Odds are
they will hjave reduced kickback on rolls or in packs, but also is
roll after roll of good commercial chain, and a stock of symetrically
shaped bars.

\On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 03:14:02 GMT, "Stephen M. Henning"
wrote:

===One often overlooked safety feature of chain saws is the anti-kickback
===chain. New saws are required to have them. Used saws may still not be
===equiped with them. These saws are dangerous without the new chain.
===
===A second overlooked safety feature of chain saws is good training. The
===training is specific to the use. A logger uses a chair saw considerably
===different than a fire fighter, a home owner, a landscaper, or a wood lot
===operator. Any good dealer that sells chain saws should have training
===available.
===
===One of the most dangerous times in using a chair saw is when starting a
===gasoline saw. That is the one time you don't have very good control of
===it. A good starting technique that can be used in the woods is
===essential. This is especially true of the more powerful saws.

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It is standard practice for most to engage the chain brake before
starting a saw. It is not any different than starting a small saw in
the back yard, as starting a saw is still starting a saw. There are
correct procedures for a chain brake and for saws without a chain
brake. Drop starting is just looking for trouble.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:22:13 -0600, zxcvbob
wrote:

===Stephen M. Henning wrote:
===
===
=== One of the most dangerous times in using a chair saw is when starting a
=== gasoline saw. That is the one time you don't have very good control of
=== it. A good starting technique that can be used in the woods is
=== essential. This is especially true of the more powerful saws.
===
===No it's not. The chain doesn't start moving until the motor is reved high
===enough to engage the clutch. A modern saw will have a chain brake, and if
===it's engaged the blade will not turn even if you rev it up. And they don't
===rev very fast when first starting. It is possible to cut yourself when
===starting a saw without the chain brake set, but there are lots of cutting
===situations that are *much* more dangerous (like felling a big sycamore tree
===or a leaning tree without first wrapping a logging chain around the trunk
===to keep it from splitting, or trimming limbs while standing on a ladder.)
===
===-Bob

Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

Well it seems as a whole most all European countries take things to
thre maximum. Just look at all that fancy gear the garbage collectors
in england use, or the street workers speeping curbs etc in Germany.
You weould think they are dressed for a massive catasrophe. The Japs
are another bunch that take things to the extreme. Guess its because
things are so mandated by the government agencies etc in those areas.
Just look at the forest wardens that clean limbs etc oin German
forests.........dressed to the extent they are hilarious in what they
have on and the exquiste colors.

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:33:15 GMT, Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

===The message
===from (DavesVideo) contains these words:
===
=== Roy
===
=== Well I would say the utility companies that clear right of ways, as
=== well as the largest Arborist and trimmin company in the USA Asplundt,
=== as well as Davey Tree, rarely if ever do I see them using chainsaw
=== chaps.
===
=== That's why I did a double take at Janet's post. For 25 years my father had a
=== logging busines in upstate new York and I had never even heard of chainsaw
=== pants.
===
=== I live in rural Scotland, where there's a big forestry industry and
===constant work clearing utility lines etc. Those people all wear full
===protection. Remote-area access to medical help can be slow.
===
=== We have strict work-safety legislation in the UK; employers who fail
===to implement it can face closure, prosecution for failing to prevent
===injury, compensation claims etc. High-risk industries are likely to
===insist on safety-compliance by workers, as a condition of employment.
===
=== YMMV.
===
=== Janet.
===
===
===
===
===
===

Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

Janet Baraclough.. expounded:

Professionals wear kevlar trousers precisely because that accident can
happen so easily.
Inexperienced people can very easily misjudge the speed of cut, and the
weight, balance and impetus of the saw as it comes free.The OP has
already told us that her arms get tired easily.

Janet, I know many professional tree men and they don't wear special
pants. It may be the norm where you live, but it certainly isn't
around here. My husband is an experienced woodsman and knows no one
who has that type of pant. Chaps, perhaps, but only professionals who
cut for a living might use them. It's a personal preference.
Knowledge is the best defense, knowledge and experience.

--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
********************************

Janet said:

Remote-area access to medical help can be slow.

We have strict work-safety legislation in the UK;

I'm sure there are also many more safety laws here in the US since the
logging days that I remember. Perhaps we were just lucky. If there had been a
serious injury, it probably would have been fatal as the nearest doctor was at
least an hours drive. To a hospital, I guess it would have been closer to 2
hours.

Dave
http://members.tripod.com/~VideoDave

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 23:55:34 GMT, (Roy) wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:11:16 GMT, Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

===The message
===from (DavesVideo) contains these words:
===
=== Janet
===
=== You also need chainsaw trousers which have a fibre lining to choke and
=== stop a moving blade.
===
=== And special socks? :-)
===
=== The trousers overlap the protective boots.
===
=== One should always be carefull, but if I had to wear
=== special clothes when ever I use my chainsaw, I would probably never use it.
===
=== Really? I don't know any professional chainsaw operator who doesn't
===wear full gear, even for a very simple half hour job.
===
=== Janet.
===


Well I would say the utility companies that clear right of ways, as
well as the largest Arborist and trimmin company in the USA Asplundt,
as well as Davey Tree, rarely if ever do I see them using chainsaw
chaps. Hearing and eye protection yes, other than that is steel toed
boots, and pants of their choice as well as a company T shirt. Even
the professional loggers here don't go to that extreme. Try and put
all that gear on and work in the woods in the hot souths humid
weather and see how long you last. They may do it up in the great
white north and some other places up north working for companies and
mandated by OSHA, but its rare to ever see them in all that protective
equipment.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

The city used to have their people use spikes to climb trees in the
past. Not so great an idea, so most of the them are working from
"cherry pickers" or using other means of climbing that doesn't damage
the bark and potentially spread disease from one tree to another.

Janice from "The City of Trees" Boise .. supposedly from the french
explorers coming in from the high desert area to look down into the
valley and exclaiming Les Bois! Les Bois! (The Trees! The Trees!)
heh.. somehow I kind of doubt that! And we've been losing Elm trees to
Dutch Elm disease, anthracnose and fusarium wilts, Locust trees to
borers, Willow trees get borers too.. and the tree keeps on going
until the wind topples it, or it collapses from its own upper weight.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 23:55:34 GMT, (Roy) wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 21:11:16 GMT, Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

===The message
===from (DavesVideo) contains these words:
===
=== Janet
===
=== You also need chainsaw trousers which have a fibre lining to choke and
=== stop a moving blade.
===
=== And special socks? :-)
===
=== The trousers overlap the protective boots.
===
=== One should always be carefull, but if I had to wear
=== special clothes when ever I use my chainsaw, I would probably never use it.
===
=== Really? I don't know any professional chainsaw operator who doesn't
===wear full gear, even for a very simple half hour job.
===
=== Janet.
===


Well I would say the utility companies that clear right of ways, as
well as the largest Arborist and trimmin company in the USA Asplundt,
as well as Davey Tree, rarely if ever do I see them using chainsaw
chaps. Hearing and eye protection yes, other than that is steel toed
boots, and pants of their choice as well as a company T shirt. Even
the professional loggers here don't go to that extreme. Try and put
all that gear on and work in the woods in the hot souths humid
weather and see how long you last. They may do it up in the great
white north and some other places up north working for companies and
mandated by OSHA, but its rare to ever see them in all that protective
equipment.
Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

The city used to have their people use spikes to climb trees in the
past. Not so great an idea, so most of the them are working from
"cherry pickers" or using other means of climbing that doesn't damage
the bark and potentially spread disease from one tree to another.

Janice from "The City of Trees" Boise .. supposedly from the french
explorers coming in from the high desert area to look down into the
valley and exclaiming Les Bois! Les Bois! (The Trees! The Trees!)
heh.. somehow I kind of doubt that! And we've been losing Elm trees to
Dutch Elm disease, anthracnose and fusarium wilts, Locust trees to
borers, Willow trees get borers too.. and the tree keeps on going
until the wind topples it, or it collapses from its own upper weight.

Hal wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:33:10 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

-snip-
Chain oil is expensive, but it isn't a good idea to try to
substitute a cheaper oil since most oils don't stick to the metal
parts like chain oil and will sling off and will not be effective.

That was how I was brought up, too-- but my 16" Remington electric
actually recommends 30 weight automotive oil.

I've used gas saws for 40 years and this is my second electric. The
first I bought 20 years ago but it was a piece of junk. Used once &
sold at a garage sale.

The Remington I bought last summer has twice the power that old beast
had- and it is lighter than my skil saw.

I don't have any illusions of going Paul Bunyan with it-- but for
trimming branches & such it is fine. [I also removed a 12" pine tree
with it last fall & it was up to the job, but a 14" Gas saw would have
made *that* job easier.]

Overall the advantages of an electric for occasional use outweigh
their low-power. The lack of noise & never having to mess with an
infernal combustion engine as well as their cost make them a good
choice.

Safety rules still apply-- though I've never seen anyone using kevlar
pants in my part of the world. [NY, USA] Hardhat, safety glasses &
a clear head will probably keep you in one piece. Watch the
branches, they are as likely to bite you as the saw is.

Jim

Hal wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 12:33:10 GMT, Frogleg wrote:

-snip-
Chain oil is expensive, but it isn't a good idea to try to
substitute a cheaper oil since most oils don't stick to the metal
parts like chain oil and will sling off and will not be effective.

That was how I was brought up, too-- but my 16" Remington electric
actually recommends 30 weight automotive oil.

I've used gas saws for 40 years and this is my second electric. The
first I bought 20 years ago but it was a piece of junk. Used once &
sold at a garage sale.

The Remington I bought last summer has twice the power that old beast
had- and it is lighter than my skil saw.

I don't have any illusions of going Paul Bunyan with it-- but for
trimming branches & such it is fine. [I also removed a 12" pine tree
with it last fall & it was up to the job, but a 14" Gas saw would have
made *that* job easier.]

Overall the advantages of an electric for occasional use outweigh
their low-power. The lack of noise & never having to mess with an
infernal combustion engine as well as their cost make them a good
choice.

Safety rules still apply-- though I've never seen anyone using kevlar
pants in my part of the world. [NY, USA] Hardhat, safety glasses &
a clear head will probably keep you in one piece. Watch the
branches, they are as likely to bite you as the saw is.

Jim

zxcvbob wrote:

Stephen M. Henning wrote:
One of the most dangerous times in using a chair saw is when starting a
gasoline saw.

No it's not. The chain doesn't start moving until the motor is reved high
enough to engage the clutch. A modern saw will have a chain brake, and if
it's engaged the blade will not turn even if you rev it up. And they don't
rev very fast when first starting. It is possible to cut yourself when
starting a saw without the chain brake set, but there are lots of cutting
situations that are *much* more dangerous (like felling a big sycamore tree
or a leaning tree without first wrapping a logging chain around the trunk
to keep it from splitting, or trimming limbs while standing on a ladder.)

Bob, the first thing the logger that trained me to use woods tools
including chain saws taught me was:

"What would happen if what you thought was going to happen didn't
happen?"

In this case if you start a saw in such a way that you are depending
upon a safety brake working, you are not operating safely. The reason
the safety brake was put on saws was to protect inept operators. A
properly trained operator doesn't assume that such features are going to
save his life.

You mentioned a couple more of the most dangerous times a person uses a
chain saw. In the years I worked in the woods, I saw more injuries
happen when not actually cutting trees.

By the way, when I worked on a Forest Service crew we didn't carry
logging chains or ladders with us. We had ropes, spotters and escape
paths.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhodyman

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 11:12:44 GMT, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

Chain oil is expensive, but it isn't a good idea to try to
substitute a cheaper oil since most oils don't stick to the metal
parts like chain oil and will sling off and will not be effective.

That was how I was brought up, too-- but my 16" Remington electric
actually recommends 30 weight automotive oil.

Manufacturer's recommendations are usually adequate, but make a small
puddle of 30 wt. and another of chain/bar oil and put your finger in
it and watch as you slowly raise the finger to see how far the oil
strings as you lift your finger. Longer string means better hold on
metal parts and more likely to cling and not to sling off of a fast
moving chain. The electric models I've seen didn't move the chain
as fast as the gasoline models I used, but I'd still use the good
stuff on my bar and chain since that is where the most wear occurs.
I have used a mix of STP and 30 wt. oil, but STP strings well and
holds the lubricant in place.

Regards,

Hal

Stephen M. Henning wrote:
zxcvbob wrote:


Stephen M. Henning wrote:

One of the most dangerous times in using a chair saw is when starting a
gasoline saw.

No it's not. The chain doesn't start moving until the motor is reved high
enough to engage the clutch. A modern saw will have a chain brake, and if
it's engaged the blade will not turn even if you rev it up. And they don't
rev very fast when first starting. It is possible to cut yourself when
starting a saw without the chain brake set, but there are lots of cutting
situations that are *much* more dangerous (like felling a big sycamore tree
or a leaning tree without first wrapping a logging chain around the trunk
to keep it from splitting, or trimming limbs while standing on a ladder.)


Bob, the first thing the logger that trained me to use woods tools
including chain saws taught me was:

"What would happen if what you thought was going to happen didn't
happen?"

In this case if you start a saw in such a way that you are depending
upon a safety brake working, you are not operating safely. The reason
the safety brake was put on saws was to protect inept operators. A
properly trained operator doesn't assume that such features are going to
save his life.

You mentioned a couple more of the most dangerous times a person uses a
chain saw. In the years I worked in the woods, I saw more injuries
happen when not actually cutting trees.

By the way, when I worked on a Forest Service crew we didn't carry
logging chains or ladders with us. We had ropes, spotters and escape
paths.


I'm sure if you search for it you can find someone who cut his foot off
"drop-starting" a saw, but you can probably also find someone who
drowned by drinking a glass of milk if you search hard enough.

Saws don't kickback when you start them. And it takes a second for them
to rev up from zero to fast enough to engage the centrifugal clutch.
Starting a saw -- chain brake or not -- is not particularly dangerous
unless you are up a ladder or in a tree when you're doing it.

You can get a nasty cut from a freshly sharpened chain when the saw is
not even running.

My big saw has no chain brake, and IIRC it has a symetrical bar. I used
to climb ladders with it when I was young and stupid. Now, I only use
it on the ground. I have a tiny saw (Echo CS3000) I can climb with. If
I need a big saw up in a tree, I'll hire a professional to do it.

I don't believe you worked for the Forest Service without a chain or
cable to wrap around the trunk of leaning or hollow trees when you
felled them. The danger here is that the tree trunk will split suddenly
without warning and come crashing straight down on top of you, or the
back side of the split flies up and hits you in the chin and takes your
head off. An escape path doesn't help very much.

Best regards,
Bob