Hi all
I am new to this gardening thing.
I have a empty dirt flower bed in front of my house beside the front steps.
I am going to plant a few annuals , a few perennials, and a few shrubs.
I want to use the wood nuggets and black fabric. don't want to be weeding
all the time.
Question is.............Do I just lay fabric down and dump and spread mulch
around? I cut fabric out for the plants. But was wondering how plantings
can get water when mulch is covering the fabric. These are the big wood
nuggets. Any help would be greatly appreciated because I don't want this to
fail on me. Time and effort and money is too much.
Thanks in advance. Will eagerly await your replies.

Ninip wrote:
Hi all
I am new to this gardening thing.
I have a empty dirt flower bed in front of my house beside the front
steps.
I am going to plant a few annuals , a few perennials, and a few
shrubs.
I want to use the wood nuggets and black fabric. don't want to be
weeding
all the time.
Question is.............Do I just lay fabric down and dump and spread
mulch
around? I cut fabric out for the plants. But was wondering how
plantings
can get water when mulch is covering the fabric. These are the big
wood
nuggets. Any help would be greatly appreciated because I don't want
this to
fail on me. Time and effort and money is too much.


Landscaping fabric is porous, so the water should penetrate. (Sheets of
plastic that don't allow water penetration would be used to kill
everything under them by solarization.)

If you haven't done a good job of removing the perennial weeds under the
fabric, you're still going to be weeding all the time. They'll come
through the seams, and the holes you cut out for the plants, and
eventually the strong ones will work through the fabric which weakens
over time.

As for the nuggets, you're going to find that you can't lay them on
thick enough to hide the fabric underneath, and you'll need to replace
them at least every year. They won't help one bit in keeping weeds down,
either. But as they break down, and leaves and other organic material
falls in them, you're going to get weeds growing on top of the fabric,
and their roots are going to further compromise the fabric -- especially
when you pull those weeds out.

If the area you're looking at planting only has a few weeds now, get rid
of them now, and go from there. If it has a lot of weeds, I would say
forget about planting this summer. Remove what you can. Scalp the rest.
Then put down overlapping newspaper, 8 layers thick (in other words, a
layer of 4 sheets, with another layer of 4 sheets with no matching
seams). Cover with two inches of compost or a good soil with a nice
organic content. An inch of shredded bark mulch on top of that will keep
it from washing away.

By fall you should be able to get in there with a trowel or mattock, and
plant any bulbs, perennials or shrubs that are appropriate for fall
planting. Do the remaining planting in spring. If you really like the
look of the nuggets, put them down in spring over what's left of the
shredded bark that kept the soil from eroding. You'll need fewer nuggets
because you won't need to completely hid the shredded bark under them.

You'll still have to do some weeding, but no more than you would if you
had used the fabric. And most of the weeds will be shallow rooted in the
soil on top of the newspaper, and will come out with little effort.
Eventually the newspaper will decompose. The weed roots and seeds under
the newspaper will have died and decomposed, too (assuming that you
didn't just lay the newspaper on top of a bumper crop of weeds without
first pulling and mowing.)

Following this method will cost less than putting down expensive fabric,
and trying to keep it covered. As for time, if it's a small area, there
isn't any difference. For a larger area, laying down the newspaper is a
little slower than rolling-out fabric. (Cover it with the compost or
soil as you go so it doesn't blow away.) But compared to how much time
and money you'd spend to keep the fabric from showing through your
nuggets, it's still a pretty good trade-off.

BTW... Dirt is the crud that covers things that aren't clean. Soil is
what plants grow in.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Blatant Plug: Get Black and Decker Landscaping Tools He
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blac...ker/index.html

"Warren" wrote in message
newshfJc.90699$Oq2.50118@attbi_s52...
Landscaping fabric is porous, so the water should penetrate. (Sheets of
plastic that don't allow water penetration would be used to kill
everything under them by solarization.)

If you haven't done a good job of removing the perennial weeds under the
fabric, you're still going to be weeding all the time. They'll come
through the seams, and the holes you cut out for the plants, and
eventually the strong ones will work through the fabric which weakens
over time.

As for the nuggets, you're going to find that you can't lay them on
thick enough to hide the fabric underneath, and you'll need to replace
them at least every year. They won't help one bit in keeping weeds down,
either. But as they break down, and leaves and other organic material
falls in them, you're going to get weeds growing on top of the fabric,
and their roots are going to further compromise the fabric -- especially
when you pull those weeds out.

If the area you're looking at planting only has a few weeds now, get rid
of them now, and go from there. If it has a lot of weeds, I would say
forget about planting this summer. Remove what you can. Scalp the rest.
Then put down overlapping newspaper, 8 layers thick (in other words, a
layer of 4 sheets, with another layer of 4 sheets with no matching
seams). Cover with two inches of compost or a good soil with a nice
organic content. An inch of shredded bark mulch on top of that will keep
it from washing away.

By fall you should be able to get in there with a trowel or mattock, and
plant any bulbs, perennials or shrubs that are appropriate for fall
planting. Do the remaining planting in spring. If you really like the
look of the nuggets, put them down in spring over what's left of the
shredded bark that kept the soil from eroding. You'll need fewer nuggets
because you won't need to completely hid the shredded bark under them.

You'll still have to do some weeding, but no more than you would if you
had used the fabric. And most of the weeds will be shallow rooted in the
soil on top of the newspaper, and will come out with little effort.
Eventually the newspaper will decompose. The weed roots and seeds under
the newspaper will have died and decomposed, too (assuming that you
didn't just lay the newspaper on top of a bumper crop of weeds without
first pulling and mowing.)

Following this method will cost less than putting down expensive fabric,
and trying to keep it covered. As for time, if it's a small area, there
isn't any difference. For a larger area, laying down the newspaper is a
little slower than rolling-out fabric. (Cover it with the compost or
soil as you go so it doesn't blow away.) But compared to how much time
and money you'd spend to keep the fabric from showing through your
nuggets, it's still a pretty good trade-off.

BTW... Dirt is the crud that covers things that aren't clean. Soil is
what plants grow in.

I concur on all points. I hesitantly used the fabric on one bed a couple of yrs.
ago and have regretted it ever since. It's not that easy to work with to start
off and doesn't do that great of a job keeping out weeds. Nut sedge comes right
thru it.

Weed seeds blowing through the air or deposited by birds will come right up
also. I did part of the same bed with only about 4 layers of newspaper and it's
performed at least as well, if not better than the fabric.

I also concur on the bark nuggets. It take a lot of them to get a decent enough
depth to deter weeds. I'm going with shredded cedar next time around.


Tyler

"Ninip" wrote in message
news:QUcJc.19246$od7.4046@pd7tw3no...
Hi all
I am new to this gardening thing.
I have a empty dirt flower bed in front of my house beside the front
steps.
I am going to plant a few annuals , a few perennials, and a few shrubs.
I want to use the wood nuggets and black fabric. don't want to be weeding
all the time.
Question is.............Do I just lay fabric down and dump and spread
mulch
around? I cut fabric out for the plants. But was wondering how plantings
can get water when mulch is covering the fabric. These are the big wood
nuggets. Any help would be greatly appreciated because I don't want this
to
fail on me. Time and effort and money is too much.
Thanks in advance. Will eagerly await your replies.

I would forget about the landscape fabric. It will be in your way every
time you need to plant annuals or dig and divide the perennials. No matter
what you do, it will somehow make its way to the surface and give you bed a
ratty look. Eventually you will cut it out and throw it away. I would also
forget the nuggets. Even if they didn't look hideous and provide little
benefit to the plants, they will float away with every heavy rain. The
idiot who lived in my house before me used pine nugget mulch. It's
something that you never completely get rid of, like herpes. The stuff
spilled out of the bed when it rained and weeds, especially tree seeds,
happily germinated in the stuff. I would get some shredded mulch and put
down about a two inch blanket.

That was an excellent reply- Worth Saving for reference! thanks!!
By the way- (Warren H!) what are your opinions on raised beds in boxes- Did
you ever write on how to and what not to do? Can you post it please?


"Warren" wrote in message
newshfJc.90699$Oq2.50118@attbi_s52...
Ninip wrote:
Hi all
I am new to this gardening thing.
I have a empty dirt flower bed in front of my house beside the front
steps.
I am going to plant a few annuals , a few perennials, and a few
shrubs.
I want to use the wood nuggets and black fabric. don't want to be
weeding
all the time.
Question is.............Do I just lay fabric down and dump and spread
mulch
around? I cut fabric out for the plants. But was wondering how
plantings
can get water when mulch is covering the fabric. These are the big
wood
nuggets. Any help would be greatly appreciated because I don't want
this to
fail on me. Time and effort and money is too much.


Landscaping fabric is porous, so the water should penetrate. (Sheets of
plastic that don't allow water penetration would be used to kill
everything under them by solarization.)

If you haven't done a good job of removing the perennial weeds under the
fabric, you're still going to be weeding all the time. They'll come
through the seams, and the holes you cut out for the plants, and
eventually the strong ones will work through the fabric which weakens
over time.

As for the nuggets, you're going to find that you can't lay them on
thick enough to hide the fabric underneath, and you'll need to replace
them at least every year. They won't help one bit in keeping weeds down,
either. But as they break down, and leaves and other organic material
falls in them, you're going to get weeds growing on top of the fabric,
and their roots are going to further compromise the fabric -- especially
when you pull those weeds out.

If the area you're looking at planting only has a few weeds now, get rid
of them now, and go from there. If it has a lot of weeds, I would say
forget about planting this summer. Remove what you can. Scalp the rest.
Then put down overlapping newspaper, 8 layers thick (in other words, a
layer of 4 sheets, with another layer of 4 sheets with no matching
seams). Cover with two inches of compost or a good soil with a nice
organic content. An inch of shredded bark mulch on top of that will keep
it from washing away.

By fall you should be able to get in there with a trowel or mattock, and
plant any bulbs, perennials or shrubs that are appropriate for fall
planting. Do the remaining planting in spring. If you really like the
look of the nuggets, put them down in spring over what's left of the
shredded bark that kept the soil from eroding. You'll need fewer nuggets
because you won't need to completely hid the shredded bark under them.

You'll still have to do some weeding, but no more than you would if you
had used the fabric. And most of the weeds will be shallow rooted in the
soil on top of the newspaper, and will come out with little effort.
Eventually the newspaper will decompose. The weed roots and seeds under
the newspaper will have died and decomposed, too (assuming that you
didn't just lay the newspaper on top of a bumper crop of weeds without
first pulling and mowing.)

Following this method will cost less than putting down expensive fabric,
and trying to keep it covered. As for time, if it's a small area, there
isn't any difference. For a larger area, laying down the newspaper is a
little slower than rolling-out fabric. (Cover it with the compost or
soil as you go so it doesn't blow away.) But compared to how much time
and money you'd spend to keep the fabric from showing through your
nuggets, it's still a pretty good trade-off.

BTW... Dirt is the crud that covers things that aren't clean. Soil is
what plants grow in.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Blatant Plug: Get Black and Decker Landscaping Tools He
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blac...ker/index.html

Xref: kermit rec.gardens:286815

"Ninip" wrote in news:QUcJc.19246$od7.4046@pd7tw3no:

Hi all
I am new to this gardening thing.
I have a empty dirt flower bed in front of my house beside the front
steps. I am going to plant a few annuals , a few perennials, and a few
shrubs. I want to use the wood nuggets and black fabric. don't want
to be weeding all the time.
Question is.............Do I just lay fabric down and dump and spread
mulch around? I cut fabric out for the plants. But was wondering how
plantings can get water when mulch is covering the fabric. These are
the big wood nuggets. Any help would be greatly appreciated because I
don't want this to fail on me. Time and effort and money is too much.
Thanks in advance. Will eagerly await your replies.

Many people in the group don't like landscape fabric (assuming that's
what you mean by fabric and not just black poly), but I use it and I like
it.

Depending on the condition of your dirt you may want to take this time to
add any compost or general amendments before you cover it with fabric and
mulch. If you are really concerned about water, you could always bury a
soaker hose in the area before you put the fabric down. I don't think
this is necessary or if you will have problem with it freezing in Canada.

When I did it, I just laid the fabric on top of everything (including
weeds), cut places for plants, put in the plants, and dumped large pine
bark nuggets everywhere. You may also want to plan some accessible
locations if you want to add bulk amendments later.

Read this, the last part is mostly two people arguing about landscape
fabric despite the Subject line:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...e=right&rnum=1
&thl=
0,919549015,919519154,919436706,919498259,91920042 1,919094047,917944077,9
17940791,917748311,915718999,915964570
&seekm=c7e5acb2.0406211104.3ff20531%40posting.goog le.com#link6

"Warren" wrote in
newshfJc.90699$Oq2.50118@attbi_s52:


Landscaping fabric is porous, so the water should penetrate. (Sheets
of plastic that don't allow water penetration would be used to kill
everything under them by solarization.)

If you haven't done a good job of removing the perennial weeds under
the fabric, you're still going to be weeding all the time. They'll
come through the seams, and the holes you cut out for the plants, and
eventually the strong ones will work through the fabric which weakens
over time.

I wonder what kind of crazy weeds you have growing where you live. At
any rate, if you have such pernicious perennial weeds, you'd be best to
dispatch them before you lay down anything on top, as if landscape fabric
will not block them, newspaper certainly won't.

As for the nuggets, you're going to find that you can't lay them on
thick enough to hide the fabric underneath, and you'll need to replace

I don't know if this true or not as my installation is under the
recommended coverage depth of 3-4". I don't mind having bits of black
fabric peek through. Certainly the wind can blow the nuggets out of the
flower bed, I normally just fing them back prior mowing the lawn, but
even without doing so, the loss rate is hardly burdensome.

them at least every year. They won't help one bit in keeping weeds
down, either. But as they break down, and leaves and other organic

They are numerous university web pages that say mulches in general and
pine bark nuggets in particular are good for weed suppression. They do
not say if there is anything intrinsicly advantageous about pine bark
though. Landscape fabric installation instructions come with the
advisement to use a layer of mulch for UV protection of the fabric.
There are rumored to be some (newer?) carbon-black coated fabrics that do
not need additional protection. I certainly have not noticed any visible
degradation in currently exposed bits of fabric of my 2-3 year old bed
(which did come with the coverage advisement).

material falls in them, you're going to get weeds growing on top of
the fabric, and their roots are going to further compromise the fabric
-- especially when you pull those weeds out.

If the rate of your debris deposition is such that you are developing a
weed supporting layer of humus in a short time frame, then you should
forget about using landscape fabric and think about selling topsoil.

The last few weeds I picked off from my landscape fabric were growing
directly on the fabric with no soil to be remembered around them. If
there was any compromising of the fabric it was not immediately
noticeable. I had not bothered to weed the bed for 3 months or so, and
the 3-4(?) weeds I had found were about hand sized. They also were
easily picked off with a hand. I think they were all broadleaf. One or
more may have been a thistle, it was spiny and very juicy, but I'm not
really familar with thistle characteristics. As I was unwilling to look
for a glove at the time, I picked it off quite easily with my bare hand.

If the area you're looking at planting only has a few weeds now, get
rid of them now, and go from there. If it has a lot of weeds, I would
say forget about planting this summer. Remove what you can. Scalp the
rest. Then put down overlapping newspaper, 8 layers thick (in other
words, a layer of 4 sheets, with another layer of 4 sheets with no
matching seams). Cover with two inches of compost or a good soil with
a nice organic content. An inch of shredded bark mulch on top of that
will keep it from washing away.

Or you could buy some glass, lay it on top and kill everything. Build a
greenhouse when you are done.

By fall you should be able to get in there with a trowel or mattock,
and plant any bulbs, perennials or shrubs that are appropriate for
fall planting. Do the remaining planting in spring. If you really like
the look of the nuggets, put them down in spring over what's left of
the shredded bark that kept the soil from eroding. You'll need fewer
nuggets because you won't need to completely hid the shredded bark
under them.

You'll still have to do some weeding, but no more than you would if
you had used the fabric. And most of the weeds will be shallow rooted

I don't know what you guys did with your fabric that makes you say that.
My flower bed was over run with all sorts of growth. I just laid the
landscape fabric on top then about 2" or less of large pine nuggets.
Nothing grew from below (aside from the chive things mentioned before)
and anything that grows on top is picked off by hand whenever I feel like
doing so.

in the soil on top of the newspaper, and will come out with little
effort. Eventually the newspaper will decompose. The weed roots and
seeds under the newspaper will have died and decomposed, too (assuming

If you believe the propaganda from the Scotts company, this is certainly
not true of dandelion roots. If I recall correctly, there have been
instances of weeds growing from seeds after being dormant for 15 years or
more. If you're thinking that there's something that newspaper will kill
that landscape fabric will not, you are mistaken.

that you didn't just lay the newspaper on top of a bumper crop of
weeds without first pulling and mowing.)

Following this method will cost less than putting down expensive
fabric, and trying to keep it covered. As for time, if it's a small

Landscape fabric is hardly expensive at 3'x50' for $10. If you get
minimum wage and save 5 hours weeding, it pays for itself in labor
savings*. It certainly is less expensive than periodic applications of
herbicide. The DuPont landscape fabric package I have is guaranteed for
15 years when covered with at least 2" of mulch. The Weedblocker brand
package has an 'absolute' guarantee. If you had such a bad experience
and paid an exorbitant amount, perhaps you should try to get your money
back.

* Contingent on proper installation and not having crazy weeds

area, there isn't any difference. For a larger area, laying down the
newspaper is a little slower than rolling-out fabric. (Cover it with
the compost or soil as you go so it doesn't blow away.) But compared
to how much time and money you'd spend to keep the fabric from showing
through your nuggets, it's still a pretty good trade-off.

Buying a 2 cu. ft. bag of pine bark nuggets every 2+ years or so is
hardly what I would call burdensome or expensive.

BTW... Dirt is the crud that covers things that aren't clean. Soil is
what plants grow in.

Also know as 'dorm rug' and unless you are an epiphyte.

In article ,
Salty Thumb wrote:
If the rate of your debris deposition is such that you are developing a
weed supporting layer of humus in a short time frame, then you should
forget about using landscape fabric and think about selling topsoil.

Heh. I wish. The only place that I'm using landscape fabric is under
a gravel walk - and I'm still getting weeds [granted not in vast
numbers, but some] through the fabric and 3-4" of gravel. Life is
persistent.

I don't know what you guys did with your fabric that makes you say that.
My flower bed was over run with all sorts of growth. I just laid the
landscape fabric on top then about 2" or less of large pine nuggets.
Nothing grew from below (aside from the chive things mentioned before)
and anything that grows on top is picked off by hand whenever I feel like
doing so.

What zone are you in, and what are you growing? I've had weeds grow up
through/on top of landscape fabric in zones 6,7, and 11, in very different
environments.

Landscape fabric is hardly expensive at 3'x50' for $10. If you get
minimum wage and save 5 hours weeding, it pays for itself in labor
savings*. It certainly is less expensive than periodic applications of
herbicide. The DuPont landscape fabric package I have is guaranteed for
15 years when covered with at least 2" of mulch. The Weedblocker brand
package has an 'absolute' guarantee. If you had such a bad experience
and paid an exorbitant amount, perhaps you should try to get your money
back.

Landscape fabric is a right pain to pull back out again though. It's all
very well if you don't expect to change what you've got planted, or
the shape of your beds - but if you're moving plants around, or changing
the shape of your beds, you've now got an annoying artificial fibre
tangled through your perennials and being a royal pain to remove.

Newspaper is cheap - but more to the point, it's also biodegradeable,
and comes apart nicely if you start to move things around. You also
don't need to worry about ground stables, or what to do about the holes
left behind after you rearrange plants.

Buying a 2 cu. ft. bag of pine bark nuggets every 2+ years or so is
hardly what I would call burdensome or expensive.

Heh. Your garden area is clearly much, much smaller than mine ; I think
I'm in the 7 cu yd of mulch realm by now - and I've added another 6 cu ft
of mulch to the small [10x6 triangle] bed in the front to top up the mulch
that's settled over the winter.

At any rate, I'd certainly agree that there are uses for landscape fabric -
but in my case, it's only for areas that I expect to remain unchanging
for years - paths and the like.

cheers!
--
================================================== ========================
"A cat spends her life conflicted between a deep, passionate and profound
desire for fish and an equally deep, passionate and profound desire to
avoid getting wet. This is the defining metaphor of my life right now."

Salty Thumb wrote:

...
I don't mind having bits of black
fabric peek through.

Personally, most of the time I'd find the green of the weeds to be more
atractive than bare, black fabric.


If the rate of your debris deposition is such that you are developing
a
weed supporting layer of humus in a short time frame, then you should
forget about using landscape fabric and think about selling topsoil.

I use shreded bark mulch because it takes fewer bags to fully cover the
same surface area than nuggets. I can completely hide my newspaper with
less than an inch of shreaded. It would take at least 4 inches with the
nuggets. I know this because I started with nuggets in my first bed, and
quickly realized how much I'd need. (And the nuggets are usually 25 to
50 cents a bag more than the shreded.)

It doesn't take much to create a medium that weeds will grow in, and
their roots are going to work downward in search of more water. No
topsoil production is involved. I'll concede that if I went with 4" of
nuggets, there'd be far less of that, but many of my lower-growing
perenials, and all of my annuals deal with an inch of shreded mulch than
they would 4" of nuggets.


I had not bothered to weed the bed for 3 months or so, and
the 3-4(?) weeds I had found were about hand sized.

How big of an area are we talking about? A mere 25 sq. ft., maybe? A
much bigger area than that, and I'd have to start thinking you're
exagerating.


Landscape fabric is hardly expensive at 3'x50' for $10. If you get
minimum wage and save 5 hours weeding, it pays for itself in labor
savings*. It certainly is less expensive than periodic applications
of
herbicide. The DuPont landscape fabric package I have is guaranteed
for
15 years when covered with at least 2" of mulch. The Weedblocker
brand
package has an 'absolute' guarantee. If you had such a bad experience
and paid an exorbitant amount, perhaps you should try to get your
money
back.

Okay. I'll give you that it's not very expensive. And that's exactly why
I don't try to get my money back. It's not worth the effort.


Buying a 2 cu. ft. bag of pine bark nuggets every 2+ years or so is
hardly what I would call burdensome or expensive.

Assuming that you're only replacing 1" with that bag, it only covers 25
sq. ft., which is consistant with your comments about the number of
weeds you found. For an area that small, no, you're not going to have
much of a savings in time or money by using the method I outlined.
However, as one gets closer and closer to the bed space of a typical
suburban home, the differences in time, money, and effectiveness become
more apparent.

But then again if you don't mind the black fabric showing, then your
method may be less expensive. But I'm guessing that most people don't
find landscaping fabric to be very attractive.

--
Warren H.

==========
Disclaimer: My views reflect those of myself, and not my
employer, my friends, nor (as she often tells me) my wife.
Any resemblance to the views of anybody living or dead is
coincidental. No animals were hurt in the writing of this
response -- unless you count my dog who desperately wants
to go outside now.
Blatant Plug: Get Black and Decker Landscaping Tools He
http://www.holzemville.com/mall/blac...ker/index.html

(Cat) wrote in
:

In article ,
Salty Thumb wrote:
If the rate of your debris deposition is such that you are developing
a weed supporting layer of humus in a short time frame, then you
should forget about using landscape fabric and think about selling
topsoil.

Heh. I wish. The only place that I'm using landscape fabric is under
a gravel walk - and I'm still getting weeds [granted not in vast
numbers, but some] through the fabric and 3-4" of gravel. Life is
persistent.

Are they are shoots from adjacent plants or wind blown seeds? I also
get rye encroachment from the lawn in one bed, but they are harassed by a
weed whacker and pulled if they make it past the brick edging. Never had
the rye grow up from under the fabric though.

I don't know what you guys did with your fabric that makes you say
that. My flower bed was over run with all sorts of growth. I just
laid the landscape fabric on top then about 2" or less of large pine
nuggets. Nothing grew from below (aside from the chive things
mentioned before) and anything that grows on top is picked off by hand
whenever I feel like doing so.

What zone are you in, and what are you growing? I've had weeds grow
up through/on top of landscape fabric in zones 6,7, and 11, in very
different environments.

I don't know what zone. I just look at the little map on the seed
packets, I'm right at a line in SE Virginia. When the weeds grew on top,
weren't they easily picked off?

I've got a couple of rose bushes. Sedums, chrysanthemums, coleus (dead)
the rest I might be able to identify if I saw the names. I did not pick
out most of the plants, but I do remember buying a dianthus whatever that
is.

Landscape fabric is hardly expensive at 3'x50' for $10. If you get
minimum wage and save 5 hours weeding, it pays for itself in labor
savings*. It certainly is less expensive than periodic applications
of herbicide. The DuPont landscape fabric package I have is
guaranteed for 15 years when covered with at least 2" of mulch. The
Weedblocker brand package has an 'absolute' guarantee. If you had
such a bad experience and paid an exorbitant amount, perhaps you
should try to get your money back.

Landscape fabric is a right pain to pull back out again though. It's
all very well if you don't expect to change what you've got planted,
or the shape of your beds - but if you're moving plants around, or
changing the shape of your beds, you've now got an annoying artificial
fibre tangled through your perennials and being a royal pain to
remove.

I don't know, I've seen feeder roots stapling the fabric to ground. I
didn't think it was all that hard to pull off, and if needed I think I
could have severed them easily from below with a broad knife. Other
parts of the fabric I looked at recently don't have the feeder roots and
comes off easily. I don't use the landscape fabric pegs, the mulch and
edging seems to hold it down well enough.

Newspaper is cheap - but more to the point, it's also biodegradeable,
and comes apart nicely if you start to move things around. You also
don't need to worry about ground stables, or what to do about the
holes left behind after you rearrange plants.

Well sure if you are planting a bunch of annuals maybe fabric isn't such
a good idea. The thing I don't like about laying newspaper is it is
like Tara, Gone With The Wind. I tried it for killing grass, I guess it
works okay. But I really like the fact that landscape fabric doesn't
decay and I don't have soil and mulch all mixed in together. It makes
moving the mulch around easier. Sure it's a little clumsy if you want to
move a hole, but if you just make X slits in the fabric, you can just
close the X back up and still get most of the protection without needing
to patch it with another piece.

Buying a 2 cu. ft. bag of pine bark nuggets every 2+ years or so is
hardly what I would call burdensome or expensive.

Heh. Your garden area is clearly much, much smaller than mine ; I
think I'm in the 7 cu yd of mulch realm by now - and I've added
another 6 cu ft of mulch to the small [10x6 triangle] bed in the front
to top up the mulch that's settled over the winter.

Ha, you just got a big ole flower garden don't you? Mine it's just a
couple of flower beds in front of the house, each probably 4'x25'. I
think I may have used between 1 and 2 cu. yards total mulch.

At any rate, I'd certainly agree that there are uses for landscape
fabric - but in my case, it's only for areas that I expect to remain
unchanging for years - paths and the like.

cheers!

Same to you :-)

"Warren" wrote in
news:QgzJc.85786$%_6.50093@attbi_s01:

Salty Thumb wrote:

...
I don't mind having bits of black fabric peek through.

Personally, most of the time I'd find the green of the weeds to be
more atractive than bare, black fabric.

You probably could get away with growing a groundcover. I don't have
the competence or the commitment to do that yet.

If the rate of your debris deposition is such that you are developing
a weed supporting layer of humus in a short time frame, then you
should forget about using landscape fabric and think about selling
topsoil.

I use shreded bark mulch because it takes fewer bags to fully cover
the same surface area than nuggets. I can completely hide my newspaper
with less than an inch of shreaded. It would take at least 4 inches
with the nuggets. I know this because I started with nuggets in my
first bed, and quickly realized how much I'd need. (And the nuggets
are usually 25 to 50 cents a bag more than the shreded.)

I don't like shreded because I have a feeling they decay quicker. I also
don't like the look.

It doesn't take much to create a medium that weeds will grow in, and
their roots are going to work downward in search of more water. No
topsoil production is involved. I'll concede that if I went with 4" of
nuggets, there'd be far less of that, but many of my lower-growing
perenials, and all of my annuals deal with an inch of shreded mulch
than they would 4" of nuggets.

Yeah that's probably a big problem and one reason I why I don't use the
full 4".

I had not bothered to weed the bed for 3 months or so, and the 3-4(?)
weeds I had found were about hand sized.

How big of an area are we talking about? A mere 25 sq. ft., maybe? A
much bigger area than that, and I'd have to start thinking you're
exagerating.

I think 2 4x25" beds, so 200 sq. ft. I'm pretty sure I used just under
two 3'x50' rolls total but had overlaped the seams. Exagerrating about
what? The size of the weeds or length of time between weeding? The size
is no joke. The time was a guess, but should be pretty accurate. It's
not something I keep track of.

Landscape fabric is hardly expensive at 3'x50' for $10. If you get
minimum wage and save 5 hours weeding, it pays for itself in labor
savings*. It certainly is less expensive than periodic applications
of herbicide. The DuPont landscape fabric package I have is
guaranteed for 15 years when covered with at least 2" of mulch.
The Weedblocker brand package has an 'absolute' guarantee. If you
had such a bad experience and paid an exorbitant amount, perhaps you
should try to get your money back.

Okay. I'll give you that it's not very expensive. And that's exactly
why I don't try to get my money back. It's not worth the effort.

What effort, just write a letter and send in a receipt. If you don't
want the money, give it to charity. There's no sense in letting a
company profit from a crappy product.

Buying a 2 cu. ft. bag of pine bark nuggets every 2+ years or so is
hardly what I would call burdensome or expensive.

Assuming that you're only replacing 1" with that bag, it only covers
25 sq. ft., which is consistant with your comments about the number of
weeds you found. For an area that small, no, you're not going to have
much of a savings in time or money by using the method I outlined.
However, as one gets closer and closer to the bed space of a typical
suburban home, the differences in time, money, and effectiveness
become more apparent.

My nugget loss in nothing like you experienced. I figure a bag every few
years is enough. I throw strays back especially if it's a particularly
large nugget, but it's not like that's a lot.

You're saying laying newspaper, then mulch, not repeating after the
newpaper decays + weeding better feed weeds is less effort than laying
down landscape fabric and mulch once? You might as well skip the
newpaper and solarize the soil.

But then again if you don't mind the black fabric showing, then your
method may be less expensive. But I'm guessing that most people don't
find landscaping fabric to be very attractive.

Personally I find it more attractive than weeds, but I guess that's where
we differ.

Salty Thumb wrote:

Hi Warren, we are on the same boat now. G

I believe you can write better English than me, and will take this as
easier task than me. BG

Cheers,
Wong

--
Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

IME that black fabric only works for a year or two because as the organic mulch
breaks down it makes a wonderful area for new plants and weeds to grow. With
gardening there comes weeding but also IME once the plants fill in they tend to
choke out most of the weeds. If I don't see it in my beds aiongst the plants I
don't bother pulling it up unless it is something like violets and those purple
flowers that grow in the lawn like mad, we've always called them forgetmenots
but that's not what they are..... maybe creeping Charlie????
Colleen
Zone 5 CT

BTW... Dirt is the crud that covers things that aren't clean. Soil is
what plants grow in.

I'm so guilty of that faux pas lol. How's this.... My yard is currently dirt
but with lots of love and organic material one day it will be soil. The
previous owners were addicted to chemlawn I swear. My backyard died off which I
expected it to without it's fix of chemicals, I'm not too worried about it
because ASAP the whole area will be replaced with plants.
Colleen
Zone 5 CT

I concur on all points. I hesitantly used the fabric on one bed a couple of
yrs.
ago and have regretted it ever since. It's not that easy to work with to
start
off and doesn't do that great of a job keeping out weeds. Nut sedge comes
right
thru it.


I use the newspaper method as well but I plant reight through it lol. It works
for me, doesn't mean it would work for someone else though because I know you
should wait 6-8 weeks to plant into the newspaper. I used cedar mulch this
growing season only because this is a new house for me and I didn't have any
leaves from fall to shred up for my beds here... This fall I will shred all my
leaves and mulch the beds. At the old place my soil was rich with tons and tons
of worms. With the leaves I'll be able to set my beds up for next growing
season. I might add neighbors are very good about sharing their leaves if you
ask nicely lol.
Colleen
Zone 5 CT