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Control Heating Costs This Winter?
Hi All,
I'm sure you've all heard and dreaded the predictions about heating costs this winter. This will be only my second year with my gh up and running. I would love to hear ideas for how some of you have been able to keep those costs as low as possible without harming your orchids (too cold, too little light, etc.) I have quite a variety of 'chids in my gh. The majority are intermediates, but I also have some intermed.-warm types and some cool-intermed. types. Last winter I set the thermostat to a min. of 55 F. This year I am considering dropping it to 50 F. I use a Southern Burner natural gas, vented model. My gh is 15' x 16' and about 10' high at the roof line. While I am in a relatively mild climate to many of you (Central California Coastal area), it can get down in to the low 30's F at night. An occasional dip in the high 20's F. What about insulation (without sacrificing too much light)? Fan positioning? Fans on, or fans off? Heat curtains? Shade cloth on the inside? Thanks in advance.... Lori |
#2
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1) Fans on - always. No exception.
2) Make sure every little seam is well sealed. 3) Set the thermostat for the minimum temperature your plants can live with. 4) Do NOT artificially heat the GH on gray days. Let solar heating do the work when it can. 5) Add sheets of polyethylene film and inflate the space between the film and your GH cover. 6) Paint the north wall of the GH white to reflect as much light as possible into the structure. 7) Keep as much water in black containers as possible in the GH. They will absorb solar heat and re-emit it into the environment. -- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info! "angraecum_habit" wrote in message oups.com... Hi All, I'm sure you've all heard and dreaded the predictions about heating costs this winter. This will be only my second year with my gh up and running. I would love to hear ideas for how some of you have been able to keep those costs as low as possible without harming your orchids (too cold, too little light, etc.) I have quite a variety of 'chids in my gh. The majority are intermediates, but I also have some intermed.-warm types and some cool-intermed. types. Last winter I set the thermostat to a min. of 55 F. This year I am considering dropping it to 50 F. I use a Southern Burner natural gas, vented model. My gh is 15' x 16' and about 10' high at the roof line. While I am in a relatively mild climate to many of you (Central California Coastal area), it can get down in to the low 30's F at night. An occasional dip in the high 20's F. What about insulation (without sacrificing too much light)? Fan positioning? Fans on, or fans off? Heat curtains? Shade cloth on the inside? Thanks in advance.... Lori |
#3
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Hmm, just a thought, but is it possible to fabricate some type of heavily
insulated blanket that can be easily thrown over the greenhouse at night. "angraecum_habit" wrote in message oups.com... Hi All, I'm sure you've all heard and dreaded the predictions about heating costs this winter. This will be only my second year with my gh up and running. I would love to hear ideas for how some of you have been able to keep those costs as low as possible without harming your orchids (too cold, too little light, etc.) I have quite a variety of 'chids in my gh. The majority are intermediates, but I also have some intermed.-warm types and some cool-intermed. types. Last winter I set the thermostat to a min. of 55 F. This year I am considering dropping it to 50 F. I use a Southern Burner natural gas, vented model. My gh is 15' x 16' and about 10' high at the roof line. While I am in a relatively mild climate to many of you (Central California Coastal area), it can get down in to the low 30's F at night. An occasional dip in the high 20's F. What about insulation (without sacrificing too much light)? Fan positioning? Fans on, or fans off? Heat curtains? Shade cloth on the inside? Thanks in advance.... Lori |
#4
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Bryan wrote:
Hmm, just a thought, but is it possible to fabricate some type of heavily insulated blanket that can be easily thrown over the greenhouse at night. Yes, it is possible with a smaller structure. It becomes increasingly difficult with a bigger structure. It takes me two people and half an hour to get the shade cloth on my greenhouse, another half hour to fold it up, and I really don't want to do that every night. If you want to go that route, try it a few times with a plastic tarp or shadecloth, to get an idea of how much effort it will really take, and if you are willing to spend that kind of time. I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an excellent idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for simplicity I've just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them under the benches. With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or (around here at least) I've seen them in the recycling center in thousand quantites, waiting to be melted, they don't mind if you recycle a few hundred yourself. In small units of a gallon, the water is easy to carry, and you can move the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end up needing the space that they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in the jugs, more the merrier. They will absorb heat better... For our way up north people (like me), I also suggest covering vents with styrofoam board. Only if the vents aren't going to open, of course (I have two sets, and cover one set). Get some weather-stripping for your greenhouse door, if it opens to the outside. If your walls are rigid plastic or glass, get some bales of straw and stack them two high around the perimeter of your greenhouse after the first week of hard frost. Higher on the north wall (three or four bales high). Any earlier and the mice and other rodents haven't found their winter homes yet. If your greenhouse is soft poly, like mine, then the straw is probably a RBI (really bad idea), due to rodent issues. You can recycle the straw as garden mulch in the spring, and straw is cheap. Rabbits... No, I'm serious. Or chickens. Both give off a lot of heat. Of course they would have to be in cages, under the benches. I might try rabbit heat someday when my daughter is old enough to appreciate the rabbits. I used to raise rabbits as a kid. Remember to consider how expensive your improvements will be, and justify that by how expensive your heat is. A one dollar piece of styrofoam that saves you 20 dollars of fuel is an excellent investment. A two dollar bale of straw (that you can reuse as mulch) that saves you even two or three dollars of fuel is an excellent investment. A high capacity active solar heating system that costs you 10,000 dollars might save you 500 dollars a year in fuel... That might not be such a good investment (but it would be a neat thing, indeed). -- Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a) See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more orchids, obtain more credit |
#5
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On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:20:09 -0400 in Rob wrote:
I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an excellent idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for simplicity I've just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them under the benches. With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or (around here at least) I've seen them in the recycling center in thousand quantites, waiting to be melted, they don't mind if you recycle a few hundred yourself. In small units of a gallon, the water is easy to carry, and you can move the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end up needing the space that they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in the jugs, more the merrier. They will absorb heat better... I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the following idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective in a green house environment. With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids? http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes, and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with anything I grow. But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-). -- Chris Dukes Suspicion breeds confidence -- Brazil |
#6
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? wrote:
On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 09:20:09 -0400 in Rob wrote: I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an excellent idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for simplicity I've just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them under the benches. With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or (around here at least) I've seen them in the recycling center in thousand quantites, waiting to be melted, they don't mind if you recycle a few hundred yourself. In small units of a gallon, the water is easy to carry, and you can move the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end up needing the space that they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in the jugs, more the merrier. They will absorb heat better... I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the following idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective in a green house environment. With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids? http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes, and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with anything I grow. But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-). I haven't looked at the link about subterrenean heating yet, but figured I'd add my 2 cents about water. Ray is the only person I know who has used water to good effect in his GH. People here (Bay Area California) don't really swear by it. That said nevertheless however I'm going to try it anyway, because the science behind it seems strong and let's face it we gotta do something. K Barrett |
#7
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I've heard, granted mostly from the person that came up with the following idea, that water and other normal thermal masses aren't very effective in a green house environment. With that said, has anyone here tried sunny john's subterranean heating and cooling system for a greenhouse with orchids? http://www.sunnyjohn.com/indexpages/...reenhouses.htm I may be setting one up for someone that needs to propagate grapes, and will collect environmental data to see if it's compatible with anything I grow. But if someone else has done it, it'll save me a lot of trouble :-). Depends on what you mean by effective. You need to have an active component to a solar hot water system to get real efficiency. Pumps, heat exchangers... Passive heat transfer is slow. So you will never be able to rely on jugs or barrels of water for your primary heating. At least in a tropical greenhouse. It is possible to design such a system, but it is fairly expensive (I consulted an engineer about the possibility, and decided on waiting for a while...). But, the upside to the slow heat transfer is just that, slow heat transfer. If you have enough water mass in a structure, it will absorb heat relatively quickly (slow from the air, but direct sunlight will heat more quickly), and release heat slowly. This has pretty much the same effect as a chemical buffer. It will take more heat to raise the temperature of the greenouse, and more cold (technically more 'absence of heat') to lower it. Putting in a dark colored rock floor (slate is good) is another way to capture heat and release it slowly. Of course in that case it helps to have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise most of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that. Practically, the air in the greenhouse will warm up much faster than the water in the greenhouse, which makes relying on water to keep your greenhouse cool suicide. You need vents for sunny days. And similarly, relying on water to keep your greenhouse tropical requires a furnace of some sort. But, water mass provides moderation, and you will require less heat to warm the air to the right temperature, and less 'coolth' to get it down. And if you have enough water mass in your greenhouse, if the furnace goes out on a cold evening your greenhouse might not freeze, or at least not freeze as fast. It might get darn cold... but warmer than the surrounding air. Think of it as insulation you install on the inside of the greenhouse. It won't do the job by itself, but the more you have the better. Of course that is just my opinion... To me, water is cheap and easy, and helps me sleep at night. -- Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a) See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more orchids, obtain more credit |
#8
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I've seen a product called "winterizing cloth" (or something to that effect)
advertised in Orchids Magazine. It's a light foamy material, that you put right over the plants on the benches ... Kenni "Bryan" wrote in message news:kjL0f.87971$oW2.22833@pd7tw1no... Hmm, just a thought, but is it possible to fabricate some type of heavily insulated blanket that can be easily thrown over the greenhouse at night. "angraecum_habit" wrote in message oups.com... Hi All, I'm sure you've all heard and dreaded the predictions about heating costs this winter. This will be only my second year with my gh up and running. I would love to hear ideas for how some of you have been able to keep those costs as low as possible without harming your orchids (too cold, too little light, etc.) I have quite a variety of 'chids in my gh. The majority are intermediates, but I also have some intermed.-warm types and some cool-intermed. types. Last winter I set the thermostat to a min. of 55 F. This year I am considering dropping it to 50 F. I use a Southern Burner natural gas, vented model. My gh is 15' x 16' and about 10' high at the roof line. While I am in a relatively mild climate to many of you (Central California Coastal area), it can get down in to the low 30's F at night. An occasional dip in the high 20's F. What about insulation (without sacrificing too much light)? Fan positioning? Fans on, or fans off? Heat curtains? Shade cloth on the inside? Thanks in advance.... Lori |
#9
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"Rob" wrote in message ... I think keeping large amounts of water in the greenhouse is an excellent idea. In containers painted black if you can, but for simplicity I've just been filling gallon milk jugs and putting them under the benches. With a toddler, I have lots of milk jugs. Or (around here at least) I've seen them in the recycling center in thousand quantites, waiting to be melted, they don't mind if you recycle a few hundred yourself. In small units of a gallon, the water is easy to carry, and you can move the milk jugs (or throw them away) if you end up needing the space that they are in. If algae or other stuff grows in the jugs, more the merrier. They will absorb heat better... An excellent idea, but likely most effective if the containers are painted flat black, not glossy. Remember, if something looks bright, it is because most of the light hitting it is reflected. If the object looks dark, it is because most of the light hitting it is absorbed. For our way up north people (like me), I also suggest covering vents with styrofoam board. Only if the vents aren't going to open, of course (I have two sets, and cover one set). Get some weather-stripping for your greenhouse door, if it opens to the outside. If your walls are rigid plastic or glass, get some bales of straw and stack them two high around the perimeter of your greenhouse after the first week of hard frost. Higher on the north wall (three or four bales high). Any earlier and the mice and other rodents haven't found their winter homes yet. If your greenhouse is soft poly, like mine, then the straw is probably a RBI (really bad idea), due to rodent issues. You can recycle the straw as garden mulch in the spring, and straw is cheap. I am up about as far north as you are, I think. There is a grower here who told me on the weekend that during the winter, day time temperatures inside his greenhouse can reach clost to 30 degrees Celcius (for our american friends, that is about 80 degrees F), while the outside temperature was about -20 degrees Celcius. He was amazed that he could see a 50 degree Celcius difference between the temperature inside the greenhouse and that outside. But I know he takes great care in the construction and operation of his greenhouse since he produces top quality plants, and has his humidity up high enough that he can usually revive plants his friends thought they'd killed. He reports that once the sun goes down, his heaters begin to run non-stop. I have not checked to see if he uses any of the passive heating options available. The calculation of how much passive heating is needed (defined in terms of water volume) is simple, once one has data on the rate of heat loss through the greenhouse roof and walls and the specific heat capacity of air and water (IIRC, for water it is 1 Cal/g - I have no idea what it is for air). Rabbits... No, I'm serious. Or chickens. Both give off a lot of heat. Of course they would have to be in cages, under the benches. I might try rabbit heat someday when my daughter is old enough to appreciate the rabbits. I used to raise rabbits as a kid. Apart from heating the greenhouse, the best part of this idea is that both are both nutritious and delicious when roasted, and then served with baked potatoes, corn, asparagus, &c. Cheers, Ted -- R.E. (Ted) Byers, Ph.D., Ed.D. R & D Decision Support Solutions http://www.randddecisionsupportsolutions.com/ Healthy Living Through Informed Decision Making |
#10
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Rabbits... No, I'm serious. Or chickens. Both give off a lot of heat. Of course they would have to be in cages, under the benches. I might try rabbit heat someday when my daughter is old enough to appreciate the rabbits. I used to raise rabbits as a kid. Apart from heating the greenhouse, the best part of this idea is that both are both nutritious and delicious when roasted, and then served with baked potatoes, corn, asparagus, &c. Cheers, Garnished with a dendrobium flower, of course. I'm all for multitasking... -- Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a) See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more orchids, obtain more credit |
#11
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Try clear plastic bulb wrap, placed inside the glass and taped around.
Great insulation, allows light to pass through and captures heat Reusable next winter. For heat one novel idea is composting, done right you can have no smells, no insects (can use worms), and can generate heat. I saw it done once in a green house, but it is probably on pratical for only a few people. |
#12
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We actually have chickens, and my husband wants to have rabbits, too. But
we haven't had the heart to house them under the benches where they'd get drenched every time we water ... Kenni "Rob" wrote in message ... Rabbits... No, I'm serious. Or chickens. Both give off a lot of heat. Of course they would have to be in cages, under the benches. I might try rabbit heat someday when my daughter is old enough to appreciate the rabbits. I used to raise rabbits as a kid. Apart from heating the greenhouse, the best part of this idea is that both are both nutritious and delicious when roasted, and then served with baked potatoes, corn, asparagus, &c. Cheers, Garnished with a dendrobium flower, of course. I'm all for multitasking... -- Rob's Rules: http://littlefrogfarm.com 1) There is always room for one more orchid 2) There is always room for two more orchids 2a) See rule 1 3) When one has insufficient credit to obtain more orchids, obtain more credit |
#13
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"Kenni Judd" wrote in message ... We actually have chickens, and my husband wants to have rabbits, too. But we haven't had the heart to house them under the benches where they'd get drenched every time we water ... Kenni Hey, that is easy to fix. Just place a sheet of plastic over the rabbits' cages. That would shelter them from the water you're using. A more difficult problem would be kids who get too attached to the cute little bunnies to allow them to be used for food and for their fur. I'd probably just avoid the issue until the kids are old enough to understand. Cheers, Ted -- R.E. (Ted) Byers, Ph.D., Ed.D. R & D Decision Support Solutions http://www.randddecisionsupportsolutions.com/ Healthy Living Through Informed Decision Making |
#14
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Rob wrote:
Of course in that case it helps to have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise most of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that. If I can ever get the morons at the building permit to pull their heads out of their...um...well, you know...I am planning on putting the styro around the foundation up top glazing level, about 4" above ground. At that point, I think insulation under the floor might be a bad idea...at least with the insulated foundation down past the permafrost line, the ground beneath should be at about 50 degrees, right? Or at least substantially warmer than the outside air. This should help with the heating, n'est-ce pas? What do you think Rob? The latest form the building code folks (who have never heard of polycarb as a building material - how long's it been around? 30 yrs? 40? - and can't get their stories straight from one person to the next, or even from one phone call to the next)is that I can't have a gravel floor in the attached GH as they are concerned about the moisture rising out of the ground through a gravel floor and causing mold in the house - despite the fact that it will still have its external coverings intact. Had planned a moisture barrier on the house wall but was told not to bother. Of course the ambient humidity in the GH in the summer will probably be in the 90% or higher range. Just like the normal outside humidity here. And I can't have it but half the size I need because of some ratio about open back yard space being at least 25% of the total lot size. So if you have a 40-acre lot, and the house sits so you only have 10 acres behind it, you can't build a 20 foot greenhouse??????????? Stupid or what? I don't have a huge lot but the lot behind me is barely bigger than my current back yard. Go figure. So I have to apply for a variance (more money) and of course it takes 2-3 months for a hearing. So that means I just MIGHT get to start building in late Dec/Jan. Oops! The ground'll be frozen then! Wish I lived in a free country instead of a one resembling the communist USSR. Seems in a country founded on property rights and liberty (not 'family values' [Whose family values? Mine? Yours?] as some say) we have neither now. Please pardon the rant, but the whole process has been very frustrating. |
#15
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Your first mistake, Tennis, was applying for a permit...
-- Ray Barkalow - First Rays Orchids - www.firstrays.com Plants, Supplies, Artwork, Books and Lots of Free Info! "tennis maynard" wrote in message . .. Rob wrote: Of course in that case it helps to have a bit of insulation between your rock and the ground, otherwise most of the heat goes the wrong way.... If you are installing a new greenhouse, consider spending the extra 100 dollars or so to put a layer of high density foam insulation under your greenhouse floor. Regardless of what your flooring material is. I wish I had done that. If I can ever get the morons at the building permit to pull their heads out of their...um...well, you know...I am planning on putting the styro around the foundation up top glazing level, about 4" above ground. At that point, I think insulation under the floor might be a bad idea...at least with the insulated foundation down past the permafrost line, the ground beneath should be at about 50 degrees, right? Or at least substantially warmer than the outside air. This should help with the heating, n'est-ce pas? What do you think Rob? The latest form the building code folks (who have never heard of polycarb as a building material - how long's it been around? 30 yrs? 40? - and can't get their stories straight from one person to the next, or even from one phone call to the next)is that I can't have a gravel floor in the attached GH as they are concerned about the moisture rising out of the ground through a gravel floor and causing mold in the house - despite the fact that it will still have its external coverings intact. Had planned a moisture barrier on the house wall but was told not to bother. Of course the ambient humidity in the GH in the summer will probably be in the 90% or higher range. Just like the normal outside humidity here. And I can't have it but half the size I need because of some ratio about open back yard space being at least 25% of the total lot size. So if you have a 40-acre lot, and the house sits so you only have 10 acres behind it, you can't build a 20 foot greenhouse??????????? Stupid or what? I don't have a huge lot but the lot behind me is barely bigger than my current back yard. Go figure. So I have to apply for a variance (more money) and of course it takes 2-3 months for a hearing. So that means I just MIGHT get to start building in late Dec/Jan. Oops! The ground'll be frozen then! Wish I lived in a free country instead of a one resembling the communist USSR. Seems in a country founded on property rights and liberty (not 'family values' [Whose family values? Mine? Yours?] as some say) we have neither now. Please pardon the rant, but the whole process has been very frustrating. |
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