This year I am getting brilliant red and crimson from my amur maples. A
few years ago I was gruntled in seeing them very much yellow.

I am suspecting the hypothesis of water during the time they turn color
is the factor as to whether they are yellow or red.

Anyone have evidence that it is the amount of water present that causes
red instead of yellow? This year was a wet year.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Do a Google search you lazy twit.


"Archimedes Plutonium" wrote in message
...
This year I am getting brilliant red and crimson from my amur maples. A
few years ago I was gruntled in seeing them very much yellow.

I am suspecting the hypothesis of water during the time they turn color
is the factor as to whether they are yellow or red.

Anyone have evidence that it is the amount of water present that causes
red instead of yellow? This year was a wet year.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Cereus-validus wrote:

Do a Google search you lazy twit.

Perhaps perpetual loud boring moron Archie-Poo is high on wormwood.
Chronic thujone poisoning causes yellowed vision. Hurry up and die,
Archie-Poo. Satan has a very small mirrored room awaiting for you.

"Archimedes Plutonium" wrote in message
...
This year I am getting brilliant red and crimson from my amur maples. A
few years ago I was gruntled in seeing them very much yellow.

I am suspecting the hypothesis of water during the time they turn color
is the factor as to whether they are yellow or red.

Anyone have evidence that it is the amount of water present that causes
red instead of yellow? This year was a wet year.

I cannot believe how incredibly stupid Archie-Poo is. I mean
rock-hard stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. Surface
of Venus under 80 atmospheres of red hot carbon dioxide and sulfuric
acid vapor dehydrated for 300 million years rock-hard stupid. Stupid
so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole
different sensorium of stupid. Archie-Poo is trans-stupid stupid.
Meta-stupid. Stupid so collapsed upon itself that it is within its
own Schwarzschild radius. Black hole stupid. Stupid gotten so dense
and massive that no intellect can escape. Singularity stupid.
Archie-Poo emits more stupid/second than our entire galaxy otherwise
emits stupid/year. Quasar stupid. Nothing else in the universe can
be this stupid. Archie-Poo is an oozingly putrescent primordial
fragment from the original Big Bang of Stupid, a pure essence of
stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of
physics that define maximally extrapolated hypergeometric
n-dimensional backgroundless stupid as we can imagine it. Archie-Poo
is Planck stupid, a quantum foam of stupid, a vacuum decay of stupid,
a grand unified theory of stupid.

Archie-Poo is the epiphany of stupid. Archie-poo is stooopid.

(What follows was cribbed from Kibo, who was here before all.)

Archie-Poo was a cashier and then a dishwasher. He started at
Dartmouth's Hanover Inn about 1990 (his previous employer was a
relative of the manager of the Inn so he got a good reference, he's
said) and about 1993 started posting to various sci.* newsgroups. He
maintains he took the job at Dartmouth (paying $7/hour when the
relationship ended in 1999) to get access to Dartmouth's campus
computers, which is odd because he took the job about three years
before he discovered the the campus computers.

He was "Ludwig Plutonium" when he started posting in 1993; previously
he was "Ludwig van Ludvig" and before that "Ludwig Hansen" [adopted
name] and "Ludwig Poehlmann" [birth name]. When he posted about a
run-in with some cops it was clear that the "legal" name changes he
effected weren't effective, because the cops looked him up as "Ludwig
Hansen". He is also struts as "The King Of Science And Logic," a
title he awarded himself.

--
Uncle Al
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/
(Toxic URL! Unsafe for children and most mammals)
http://www.mazepath.com/uncleal/qz.pdf

in article , Uncle Al at
wrote on 10/5/04 9:04 AM:

I cannot believe how incredibly stupid Archie-Poo is. I mean
rock-hard stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. Surface
of Venus under 80 atmospheres of red hot carbon dioxide and sulfuric
more of same snipped

While I do not disagree with the general tenor of Uncle Al's raves,
Archie-Poo does have some original thoughts. Most, if not all of them, are
no good, but that is another story.

If, as Linus Pauling said, if Archie-Poo could only develop one or two of
his ideas in spite of others' negative opinions, he could become another
Linus Pauling. I am not holding my breath.

Bill

Repeating Rifle wrote:
If, as Linus Pauling said, if Archie-Poo could only develop one or two of
his ideas in spite of others' negative opinions, he could become another
Linus Pauling. I am not holding my breath.

What on Earth does any of this have to do with the inventor of the
golf ball??!?


--
Yes, the reason sword is sharp and pointy with many edges and you should
set it down because you've already cut yourself very, very badly. Hold
your arm up and apply pressure until the paramedics arrive.
- tdwillis on ARK responding to net.religious.bozo X-Posts

Yes, he does appear to be incredibly stupid. And I have long suspected that his
extensive farm and orchard are figments of his imagination. But don't waste
bandwidth making fun of him. He obviously is not all there. He may be mildly
schizophrenic or have Asperger's syndrome (a form of autism). If you don't want
to answer his silly questions, just be compassionate & let him alone.
And yes, I'm the newsgroup's official Jewish mother. It's beshert
(predestined).
Iris,
Central NY, Zone 5a, Sunset Zone 40
"If we see light at the end of the tunnel, It's the light of the oncoming
train."
Robert Lowell (1917-1977)

Archimedes Plutonium wrote in message ...
This year I am getting brilliant red and crimson from my amur maples. A
few years ago I was gruntled in seeing them very much yellow.

I am suspecting the hypothesis of water during the time they turn color
is the factor as to whether they are yellow or red.

Anyone have evidence that it is the amount of water present that causes
red instead of yellow? This year was a wet year.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

North Dakota Agricultural Extension reports that the color of some
Amur maples varies with soil conditions, but gives no details. So you
might be right.

Unless you have an Amur maple variety selected for color, such as the
common 'Flame', their color is somewhat variable.

--
Chris Green

Subject: color of amur maples
From: Archimedes Plutonium
Message-ID:

This year I am getting brilliant red and crimson from my amur maples. A
few years ago I was gruntled in seeing them very much yellow.

I am suspecting the hypothesis of water during the time they turn color
is the factor as to whether they are yellow or red.

Anyone have evidence that it is the amount of water present that causes
red instead of yellow? This year was a wet year.

We have a Liquidambar (Sweetgum) planted in our front yard (the tree closely
resembles an Amur Maple, of course--and, yes, I know I know: Liquidamber is a
member of the Hamamelidaceae, not Aceraceae). The tree gets all kinds of water,
not only from the winter rainy season, but from our regular irrigation of the
lawn during summer, all the way up until the leaves fall completely off. The
tree seldom develops a stunning brilliant red Autumnal display that virtually
every other Liquidambar reveals around town during Fall. Our Liquidambar's
leaves remain, most years, a dull yellow, bordering on dingy brown. Depressing,
in the main. As I recollect, our Liquidambar does indeed seem to demonstrate at
least a modicum of reddish Autumnal glory when we've not watered nearly as much
during the summer, or early Fall. Could be merely coincidence, though; or,
perhaps the change is influenced by microclimates, or even differences in
ground chemistry caused by irrigation leaching ions from the
soil during our years of heavy watering.

On the other hand, the Chinese Pistache in our back yard receives prodigious
amounts of water during the summer and early Autumn--and that tree has no
problem turning brilliant red each and every year.

Finally, one last observation: most of the Liquidambars around our town are
pretty much neglected--the trees along the main streets and such. The only
water they apparently receive is from the customary winter and early Spring
rain cycles; and those Liquidambars, each and every year, virtually explode in
a brilliant display of vivid reds--gorgeous. They put our tree to shame.

So, if the hypothesis that links reddish Autumnal leaf colors with the amount
of water delivered to a tree during the time the leaves begin to turn color
"holds water," bears credence, then our situation is directly opposite of
yours, at least with regard to the Liquidambar.

"The Acoustic Guitar Solitaire Of Inyo"
I play 15 solo, acoustic, instrumental 6-string guitar renditions--all
available for free download in 128kbps MP3 format
http://members.aol.com/geowrs/music/inyocybercd.html

Christopher Green wrote:


North Dakota Agricultural Extension reports that the color of some
Amur maples varies with soil conditions, but gives no details. So you
might be right.

Unless you have an Amur maple variety selected for color, such as the
common 'Flame', their color is somewhat variable.

--
Chris Green

Yes, I am of the opinion that color is not cultivar dependent because one year a tree can be
yellow and another year red. The likely candidate is water to give such variance.

Now if we broke off a branch of amur maple it will turn from green to yellow brown, never red.

And because Fall color coincides with the sap and water draining out.

If I could get some chemistry of compounds which cause the red color and if it can be shown that
this compound is water dependent would be strong evidence that water is the factor between
yellow or red.

I doubt it is a sunlight factor because trees next to one another can be either yellow or red.

I have 2 old trees along a fence where one is red and the other is next to a large cottonwood
that takes up much of the water and this amur is yellow.

It seems to me that it is water dependent as to whether yellow or red.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Inyo wrote:


We have a Liquidambar (Sweetgum) planted in our front yard (the tree closely
resembles an Amur Maple, of course--and, yes, I know I know: Liquidamber is a
member of the Hamamelidaceae, not Aceraceae). The tree gets all kinds of water,
not only from the winter rainy season, but from our regular irrigation of the
lawn during summer, all the way up until the leaves fall completely off. The
tree seldom develops a stunning brilliant red Autumnal display that virtually
every other Liquidambar reveals around town during Fall. Our Liquidambar's
leaves remain, most years, a dull yellow, bordering on dingy brown. Depressing,
in the main. As I recollect, our Liquidambar does indeed seem to demonstrate at
least a modicum of reddish Autumnal glory when we've not watered nearly as much
during the summer, or early Fall. Could be merely coincidence, though; or,
perhaps the change is influenced by microclimates, or even differences in
ground chemistry caused by irrigation leaching ions from the
soil during our years of heavy watering.

Or it could be that the molecule responsible red color in Amur maple when combined
with water becomes red whereas a similar molecule in Sweetgum is the reverse color
of yellow. So that the molecule with alot of water is red for amur but yellow for
sweetgum.

Water dependency makes sense on another dimension. When we cut a branch off of a
tree it never turns from green to red but always to yellow brown because the water
has been reduced.

Now if this Liquidambar branch was broken does it tend to turn a reddish tint
before going yellow-brown? And why is it called "Liquid" and "ambar" in the first
place? Is it because it has something to do with red and water.



On the other hand, the Chinese Pistache in our back yard receives prodigious
amounts of water during the summer and early Autumn--and that tree has no
problem turning brilliant red each and every year.

Finally, one last observation: most of the Liquidambars around our town are
pretty much neglected--the trees along the main streets and such. The only
water they apparently receive is from the customary winter and early Spring
rain cycles; and those Liquidambars, each and every year, virtually explode in
a brilliant display of vivid reds--gorgeous. They put our tree to shame.

So, if the hypothesis that links reddish Autumnal leaf colors with the amount
of water delivered to a tree during the time the leaves begin to turn color
"holds water," bears credence, then our situation is directly opposite of
yours, at least with regard to the Liquidambar.


It maybe in that the chemistry of leaves and water are reverse of that between
amur-maple and sweetgum.

But your post raises many other more important questions in my mind:

(1) do plants and trees like alot of water in Autumn considering that they are
going dormant anyway and shedding their internal water

(2) do evergreen trees like alot of water in Autumn considering that they are
trying to remove water and instill antifreeze into their needles

(3) do plants and trees in the winter uptake water or do they stop taking in water
during winter

(4) would a plant or tree after the leaves are off and put into a waterless soil
during winter, would it die? I would guess not because some trees are bare rooted
and put into a refrigerator and stays alive.

So what is the deal for plants and trees in Autumn and Winter. Do they like a wet
Autumn or prefer a dry Autumn. And do they take in water during Winter days.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 23:19:25 -0500, Archimedes Plutonium
wrote:



Christopher Green wrote:


North Dakota Agricultural Extension reports that the color of some
Amur maples varies with soil conditions, but gives no details. So you
might be right.

Unless you have an Amur maple variety selected for color, such as the
common 'Flame', their color is somewhat variable.

--
Chris Green

Yes, I am of the opinion that color is not cultivar dependent because one year a tree can be
yellow and another year red. The likely candidate is water to give such variance.

Well, that puts you on one side and everybody else on the other,
because it is well-known to the many nurserymen who deal in Amur
maples that the color is mainly dependent on the variety.

Some varieties are variable in color, and it is these that may exhibit
color variation from year to year or dependent on conditions.

Now if we broke off a branch of amur maple it will turn from green to yellow brown, never red.

And because Fall color coincides with the sap and water draining out.

Coincidence does not imply causality.

If I could get some chemistry of compounds which cause the red color and if it can be shown that
this compound is water dependent would be strong evidence that water is the factor between
yellow or red.

The chemistry of these compounds is extremely well known, but it must
be that it is well known to everybody but yourself. It is only your
complete ignorance of the subject that prevents you from realizing how
silly you sound.

--
Chris Green

Thu, 07 Oct 2004 05:24:33 GMT Christopher Green wrote:

On Wed, 06 Oct 2004 23:19:25 -0500, Archimedes Plutonium
wrote:



Christopher Green wrote:


North Dakota Agricultural Extension reports that the color of some
Amur maples varies with soil conditions, but gives no details. So you
might be right.

Unless you have an Amur maple variety selected for color, such as the
common 'Flame', their color is somewhat variable.

--
Chris Green

Yes, I am of the opinion that color is not cultivar dependent because one year a tree can be
yellow and another year red. The likely candidate is water to give such variance.

Well, that puts you on one side and everybody else on the other,
because it is well-known to the many nurserymen who deal in Amur
maples that the color is mainly dependent on the variety.

Some varieties are variable in color, and it is these that may exhibit
color variation from year to year or dependent on conditions.

Now if we broke off a branch of amur maple it will turn from green to yellow brown, never red.

And because Fall color coincides with the sap and water draining out.

Coincidence does not imply causality.

If I could get some chemistry of compounds which cause the red color and if it can be shown that
this compound is water dependent would be strong evidence that water is the factor between
yellow or red.

The chemistry of these compounds is extremely well known, but it must
be that it is well known to everybody but yourself. It is only your
complete ignorance of the subject that prevents you from realizing how
silly you sound.

--
Chris Green

Chris, I have the benefit of opening my front door and seeing about 50 different amur maples in my
front yard, but I suspect that you are talking about something which you do not have any direct
experience with.

For example I notice that many of those amur maples have started out this year with a deep crimson
almost purple color over 80% of the leaves yet a red color on its topmost leaves and as the days
wear-on those purplish leaves turn more red. I notice on a few that the green leaves have turned to
yellow for 80% of the tree but on its outermost edges of its top leaves are flaming red.

So what does this tell me. It tells me that the NorthDakota answer of soil conditions would not be
the cause of why trees are yellow one year and no red at all and other years have a mix of red,
purple, yellow. It tells me that amur maples are not soil-condition dependent because the soil does
not change from a yellow year to the next year being red.

It tells me that the color is not cultivar dependent because genes do not change or vary from one
year to the next.

It does tell me with ample evidence that the Dependency of whether it is yellow or red is due to
water and water flow out of leaves in Autumn. Water explains why the edges of a leave are red yet
the interior as purple crimson. Water explains why the outer fringes of the tree leaves are red yet
the interior leaves are green or yellow.

Water movement explains the variability.

Now, Chris, you claim the chemistry of color is well known. Pardon me if I doubt your claim. For I
have the hunch you just made that statement up in some thin air. I go back to my same point-- that
if we knew the chemistry of tree leaves color that given ample water as in the growing season it is
green, but as the tree begins its Autumn hibernation and its water removal and sap running down that
somehow the lack of water in leaves and some of those leaf molecules give the appearance of purple,
red or yellow.

So, Chris, I need to know of a molecule compound in tree leaves that reacts to water to give either
green, purple, red or yellow, and also brown.

It is not soil conditions and it is not cultivar genetics that creates this variance in amur maples.

Chris, you are beginning to sound as stubborn as President Bush and obviously resorting to name
calling. Keep in mind that my posts are not campaigns but rather instead a digging into science.

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Thu, 07 Oct 2004 12:59:54 -0500 Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
(all snipped except)


Water movement explains the variability.


It maybe something in the sap of the tree as it starts its Autumn migration and hibernation for winter.

So I need some chemical compound in photosynthesis of tree leaves (amur maples in particular) and I
need both sap and water as to how sap and water can alter the visual appearance of this chemical
compound from green to purple to yellow to red to brown.

It maybe how fast the sap migrates out of the tree. Or water migration. Or both sap and water. It maybe
the sap itself is the color determinant.

But it is obvious that sap and water are the key determinants because the explanation of why a amur
maple has fringed red on its outermost leaves. Fringing is a pattern that follows the sap and water
movement.

Chris, you have not done too well on this discussion and in fact done very poorly. So let me ask you a
new question. Do plants and trees prefer or is it in their interest or to their advantage to have a wet
Autumn considering that they are readying themselves for sap migration and hibernation for the winter.
So do they prefer a "dry Fall" or do they prefer a wet Fall?

Archimedes Plutonium
www.iw.net/~a_plutonium
whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots
of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

Archimedes Plutonium wrote in message ...
Thu, 07 Oct 2004 12:59:54 -0500 Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
[nothing worth repeating]
Chris, you have not done too well on this discussion and in fact done very poorly.

I'll take that as a compliment, coming as it does from one with not
the remotest knowledge of anything resembling plant physiology.

--
Chris Green

Archimedes Plutonium wrote in
:



Thu, 07 Oct 2004 12:59:54 -0500 Archimedes Plutonium wrote:
(all snipped except)


Water movement explains the variability.


It maybe something in the sap of the tree as it starts its Autumn
migration and hibernation for winter.

So I need some chemical compound in photosynthesis of tree leaves
(amur maples in particular) and I need both sap and water as to
how sap and water can alter the visual appearance of this chemical
compound from green to purple to yellow to red to brown.

It maybe how fast the sap migrates out of the tree. Or water
migration. Or both sap and water. It maybe the sap itself is the
color determinant.

But it is obvious that sap and water are the key determinants
because the explanation of why a amur maple has fringed red on its
outermost leaves. Fringing is a pattern that follows the sap and
water movement.

Chris, you have not done too well on this discussion and in fact
done very poorly. So let me ask you a new question. Do plants and
trees prefer or is it in their interest or to their advantage to
have a wet Autumn considering that they are readying themselves
for sap migration and hibernation for the winter. So do they
prefer a "dry Fall" or do they prefer a wet Fall?


I agree that Chris has done poorly in the discussion, preferring to
scoff at your lack of knowledge instead of showing the way that you are
mistaken.

Leaf color has been studied. More important than soil moisture is the
combination of day length and air temperature. Deciduous trees in
temperate zones start to shut down leaf metabolism based on day length.
If the cool weather of fall arrives at a different stage of the
shutdown, then tissues in the leaf will die at different parts of the
cycle, leading to different colors.

Red colors come from Anthocyanins and Betaines in the leaf, which are
carried in vacuoles of the epithelial cells. Yellow colors are from
Xanthophylls, which are in the plastids of the pallisade cells. Those
plastids also have a lot of chlorophyll in them, which in deciduous
trees dies at a certain temperature. If the red pigments have been
removed from the epithelial cells by the time cool weather kills the
chlorophyll, then the leaves are yellow, if not, then you get red
leaves.

Soil moisture has some effect, as it influences the amount of sugars
that are in the leaf. The sugars don't actually react with anything to
make the colors, but they do affect the timing that the red pigments
are removed. In addition, if a tree never produces the red pigments,
you will never get red leaves.

This is simplified somewhat, you should be able to find some articles
on the web that go into more detail.

Sean