On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:26:18 +0100, Gill Passman
wrote:

G Pearce wrote:
I hate to jump into this thread as it is a pretty passionate one here - I
have to agree with Jan as I went thru the same experience as Jan a few years
ago - my cat had to go in for a operation and the vet gave us some "high
end" food for her recovery - 3 days later we called him as she was passing
almost no waste compared to before and we were worried something was wrong -
he said the food we were feeding her before was loaded with filler and less
nutrients that she could use - it was not medicated, just more expensive
food because of less filler, ergo less waste to pass - I went to better food
for the pond and now clean my upflow filter once a season rather than 3 to 4
times / season with same amount of food (my choice - I spoil my pets when
they beg :~) )

Gale :~)


OK, I hate to jump into this as well but....now I will certainly agree
that there are fish foods as well as other pet foods on the market that
do not contain as much fibre or filler - hmmm, aren't we all encouraged
to eat fibre that we cannot digest as part of a healthy diet??? and
doesn't this apply to the health of our fish as well....a natural
balanced diet contains protein, roughage, vitamins, minerals etc in fact
fibre is seen as a very posititive thing for our well being and the
health issues without it are quite significant - it might suit us if our
pets poop a little less but I very much doubt that it is beneficial to
their health....our medics would be in a panic if we didn't produce
sufficient waste products diagnosing all sorts of stuff...over here, in
the UK, the more regular and sufficient quantity the better (without
wanting to get gross) for our health as far as our medics and health
education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different...

Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying
cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...the
fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is
purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? or is that just
another marketing ploy....if the fish are breeding and healthy and have
good colour do we need to take issue just because of a labelling issue????

Gill
As we should be doing when we shop for food for ourselves, we need to
be reading ingredients labels. Then comparing equivalent brands by
price.

-- Mister Gardener

~ janj wrote:

On the side of the cheap-food feeders, there's the argument that nobody
here has a koi in the 50 year age range :-)

My opinion? I'm cheap, I spend as little as I can when I shop for myself,
and the fish aren't any better then me.

If one really wants or needs to be cheap, lower the fish load and they can
live off what falls, crawls, flies, jumps or grows in the pond. ;o) ~ jan

That's essentially my policy. I only feed the fish for _my_ enjoyment, and
then not much. They do get more food from the pond than from me (and yet
I've never had a problem with koi eating the plants, which surprises me).
--
derek

correct, freezing wont do anything.

corn for human consumption must undergo a lot more rigorous examination. altho we
know about this last batch of food, I wonder how much "low dose" of the toxin is
found in dog food. it seems a LOT of dogs get cancer.
does cat food contain corn? do cats get much cancer?
Ingrid

~ janj wrote:

no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils
are also toxic. Ingrid

I assume the no, is directed at freezing won't kill, dang! 1st statement is
a worry, in that this toxic corn could end up in any feed. Bummer. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
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Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

Cancer is what my cat (mentioned above in thread) had and eventually died
from, we used to feed our cats Purina brand food. Purina seems to have a lot
of corn in all of their different pet foods. We are now feeding them Iams
Multi Cat ("corn grits" are listed as 3rd ingredient) Getting back to the
fish, when I started ponding 13 yrs ago, I was using Purina Trout Chow -1st
ingredient, I believe was corn, but I think it was all the fish byproducts
and oils that were the problem - my 1st 2 koi went from 3" to 18" in 3 yrs
and died with no visible problems. The 3rd koi from that group died the
following year of nothing visible other than it went totally blind When I
started to ask around as to why, I was directed to a koi farm to ask . The
first question was "what are you feeding them?" With the Purina Trout Chow
answer, the koi breeder asked me how long do I think I would live if I ate
at McDonalds 3 meals / day, 7 days a week. He said they use some trout chow
sparingly to put some size on their koi until their first cull, then high
quality food to bring out the colours and for health. He also said the
"Chow" was formulated for trout, catfish and salmon farms to get the fish
large enough for market as quickly as possible, typically 13 months. The
effect it has on their internal organs is of no interest to them
jme Gale :~)
found in dog food. it seems a LOT of dogs get cancer.
does cat food contain corn? do cats get much cancer?
Ingrid

~ janj wrote:

no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and
rancid oils
are also toxic. Ingrid

I assume the no, is directed at freezing won't kill, dang! 1st statement
is
a worry, in that this toxic corn could end up in any feed. Bummer. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up:
http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold
website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

"Altum" wrote in message
. com...

BTW, you should see the pictures of livers from discus fed on beef heart
in his book. The livers are huge, not functioning properly, and filled
with fat globules. Animal fats are very bad for fish and both dog and cat
foods contain a lot of animal fat. Anyone feeding cat or dog food had a
look at their fishes livers? Can you prove you're not doing long-term
damage to your fish?

How can we prove any of the feeds aren't doing long-term damage to our fish?
How many of us can afford to feed them fresh shrimp, scallops and other sea
foods from the local stores? Have you any idea what seafood costs? Paying
a premium price for koi food is no guarantee it doesn't contain something
harmful or was stored correctly BEFORE we purchased it. Also, how can we
know what's really in it?

And no, looking healthy and spawning for
even a decade is NOT a good indicator of liver health in an animal that
should have a 100-year lifespan.

Nor is paying $5 to $10 a lb for koi food. In just the past 8 years it went
from GF (or example) being mainly vegetarians to GF being mainly
carnivorous. First I read that they can't digest meaty foods and now the
story is they can't digest starches or carbohydrates. Next year they'll be
omnivorous or maybe grainivorous.... or so someone will claim. ;-) I've
learned to take it all with a grain of salt as they say.

Just look at the decades long but
still shortened lifespan of alcoholic humans with cirrhosis.

There's no comparison. Drunks seldom eat anything like a normal diet or
even know or care what they eat or if they eat. As long as they have their
*fix* on hand. No one is giving their fish alcohol. :-)

Sorry. I'll go back to patching my pond liner now.

Everyone has an opinion worth hearing.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 08:09:28 GMT, Altum wrote:

BTW, you should see the pictures of livers from discus fed on beef heart
in his book. The livers are huge, not functioning properly, and filled
with fat globules. Animal fats are very bad for fish and both dog and
cat foods contain a lot of animal fat. Anyone feeding cat or dog food
had a look at their fishes livers?

Lots of the fishvets have, that teach the courses to the AKCA Koi Health
Advisors. Why I try to encourage people not to feed that stuff, to read
labels, etc.

IMHO, If money is an issue, it would be better to lower the fish load, and
only use a good quality processed food as a treat when you go out an visit
the fish. They can live off the pond, if it is large enough, planted &
established. Not to mention this will lower the maintenance on the filter.
~ jan
~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

Koi-Lo wrote:

Everyone has an opinion worth hearing.

I doubt you realize it, but that's an incredibly condescending
statement. You are confusing opinion with the science that Ingrid and I
are trying to present.

If you choose to wear blinders and not read veterinary articles and
aquaculture literature that's your choice. If you did, you would learn
that trout chow and catfish chow are developed for aquacultured trout
and catfish, not pet koi. They are designed to provide the cheapest
possible food that provides short-term health, rapid growth, and
palatable flesh when the fish reaches someone's dinner table. That's
not the usual goal for pet fish. I'm sure your fish are fine, but
they're not likely to have the same long-term health and extensive
lifespan of fish fed diets that have been optimized for koi.

My OPINION is that keeping five koi on a diet optimized for health and
longevity is preferable to keeping fifty koi on cheap catfish and trout
chow.

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

"Altum" wrote in message
. net...
Koi-Lo wrote:

Everyone has an opinion worth hearing.

I doubt you realize it, but that's an incredibly condescending statement.
You are confusing opinion with the science that Ingrid and I are trying to
present.

It's not condescending. It's the truth. Everyone's opinion is worth
hearing. This isn't a communist country. :-)) Science? Have you any peer
reviewed studies done on koi and their feeding here in the USA? Studies
done with control groups and by people with no vested interest in any feed
company in any way? I honestly looked on the net months ago and came up
with nothing. Nothing but anecdotes and the glowing claims made by those
selling such products.

If you choose to wear blinders and not read veterinary articles and
aquaculture literature that's your choice. If you did, you would learn
that trout chow and catfish chow are developed for aquacultured trout and
catfish, not pet koi.

And yet koi thrive and reproduce on these feeds and I was unable to find
anything ... see above.

They are designed to provide the cheapest
possible food that provides short-term health, rapid growth, and palatable
flesh when the fish reaches someone's dinner table. That's not the usual
goal for pet fish. I'm sure your fish are fine, but they're not likely to
have the same long-term health and extensive lifespan of fish fed diets
that have been optimized for koi.

How many of us on this NG are going to still be here 100 years from now? If
they live 75 years instead of 100 years I'll be happy. :-)

My OPINION is that keeping five koi on a diet optimized for health and
longevity is preferable to keeping fifty koi on cheap catfish and trout
chow.

And you're entitled to that opinion as those of us who use these cheaper
feeds are entitled to ours. I don't think I'll be too concerned about my
koi even 50 years from now.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at:
http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

veeeery interesting. this dying "with no apparent reason" makes me NUTS. last 2 koi
died 3-4 years ago when I did the "post" on the freshest one all I found was wrong
colored eggs ... meaning possible bacterial infection. that is when I netted over
the veggie filter so the birds couldnt bathe in there.
I dont think I have any fish left from my first batch of koi... the ones I fed crap
rancid trout chow to before I learned better. I feel so bad about losing my first
koi, raised em mostly in a 55 gallon tank. they were very friendly when they went
into the pond. Ingrid

"G Pearce" wrote:
Cancer is what my cat (mentioned above in thread) had and eventually died
from, we used to feed our cats Purina brand food. Purina seems to have a lot
of corn in all of their different pet foods. We are now feeding them Iams
Multi Cat ("corn grits" are listed as 3rd ingredient) Getting back to the
fish, when I started ponding 13 yrs ago, I was using Purina Trout Chow -1st
ingredient, I believe was corn, but I think it was all the fish byproducts
and oils that were the problem - my 1st 2 koi went from 3" to 18" in 3 yrs
and died with no visible problems. The 3rd koi from that group died the
following year of nothing visible other than it went totally blind When I
started to ask around as to why, I was directed to a koi farm to ask . The
first question was "what are you feeding them?" With the Purina Trout Chow
answer, the koi breeder asked me how long do I think I would live if I ate
at McDonalds 3 meals / day, 7 days a week. He said they use some trout chow
sparingly to put some size on their koi until their first cull, then high
quality food to bring out the colours and for health. He also said the
"Chow" was formulated for trout, catfish and salmon farms to get the fish
large enough for market as quickly as possible, typically 13 months. The
effect it has on their internal organs is of no interest to them
jme Gale :~)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

Koi-Lo wrote:

"Altum" wrote in message
. net...
Koi-Lo wrote:

Everyone has an opinion worth hearing.

I doubt you realize it, but that's an incredibly condescending
statement. You are confusing opinion with the science that Ingrid and
I are trying to present.

It's not condescending. It's the truth. Everyone's opinion is worth
hearing. This isn't a communist country. :-)) Science? Have you any
peer reviewed studies done on koi and their feeding here in the USA?
Studies done with control groups and by people with no vested interest
in any feed company in any way? I honestly looked on the net months
ago and came up with nothing. Nothing but anecdotes and the glowing
claims made by those selling such products.

If you choose to wear blinders and not read veterinary articles and
aquaculture literature that's your choice. If you did, you would
learn that trout chow and catfish chow are developed for aquacultured
trout and catfish, not pet koi.

And yet koi thrive and reproduce on these feeds and I was unable to find
anything ... see above.

They are designed to provide the cheapest
possible food that provides short-term health, rapid growth, and
palatable flesh when the fish reaches someone's dinner table. That's
not the usual goal for pet fish. I'm sure your fish are fine, but
they're not likely to have the same long-term health and extensive
lifespan of fish fed diets that have been optimized for koi.

How many of us on this NG are going to still be here 100 years from
now? If they live 75 years instead of 100 years I'll be happy. :-)

My OPINION is that keeping five koi on a diet optimized for health and
longevity is preferable to keeping fifty koi on cheap catfish and
trout chow.

And you're entitled to that opinion as those of us who use these cheaper
feeds are entitled to ours. I don't think I'll be too concerned about
my koi even 50 years from now.

Sorry. I totally misunderstood. At the risk of turning this into the
thread that won't die...I typed "aquaculture koi carp diet" into Google
Scholar and a bunch of stuff came up. I don't have time to try to go
through the searches, but maybe there are some unbiased studies.

I'm GLAD your fish are healthy. I tend to fawn over my pets, perhaps a
bit too much. They probably eat better than I do. ;-)

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

wrote in message
...
I dont think I have any fish left from my first batch of koi... the ones I
fed crap
rancid trout chow to before I learned better.
=======
Even the $10 a lb koi chow can be rancid when you buy it depending on how it
was handled between the place where it was made and your fish. I think it's
fair to warn people to CHECK for rancidity no matter what the food costs.
Price is no guarantee it was handled correctly before you purchase it.

Since you evidently can prove it was rancid but you were unable to detect
the rancidity for some reason, I assume you sued the feed co. for at least
the value of your fish.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 15:47:52 -0500, "Koi-Lo" wrote:

Have you any peer
reviewed studies done on koi and their feeding here in the USA?

See www.akca.org click on menu, click on Koi Health Advisor, click on KHA
Nutrition.

I will check with him to see if he knows of any "studies". ~ jan

-----------------
(Do you know where your water quality is?)

"~ janj" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 15:47:52 -0500, "Koi-Lo"
wrote:

Have you any peer
reviewed studies done on koi and their feeding here in the USA?

See www.akca.org click on menu, click on Koi Health Advisor, click on KHA
Nutrition.

Thanks, I saved it (the PDF) and hope to read it tomorrow.

I will check with him to see if he knows of any "studies". ~ jan

--

Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at:
http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Excuse me Ingird,

Who, are saying these things. Documentation, pLease. As some one who
keeps up with that is going on in the Aquaculture world, I have seen
nothing of your claims. Plus I don't know of any product that is corn
based (dog or fish), except one (for fish), and that is not easily
available to the general public, you would have to know about it an go
out of your way to purchase it, so that is probably not the case. Most
corn products that are put into fish foods are corn glutein, which is
high in protein and easily assimulated by fish and is very good for
fish.

So please, tell us of the research and/or documenation that supports
what you have said about the liver problems, etc.

Tom L.L.

KOI-Lo

You may want to look to see if you have a Purina dealer in your area
and if they will special order you some of the Purina AquaMax brand of
fish food for your stock. It is an excellent food, although it is a
little more expensive that regular catfish foods, around here it runs
about $26 dollars for 50 poounds. I have not bought any this year, so
don't know if there is a price increase, but figure there will be an
increase in price. Fuel prices affect everything. If comes in in all
sizes from powder to pellets, with some floating and sinking varieties.
I get the sinking crumbles because I have only Goldfish. The AquaMax
is a high protein food, but with the fish eating plant materials in the
ponds during the summer it is good choice. I still buy Sho-Gold and
feed it off and on through out the summer for variety.

Tom L.L.