Koi-Lo wrote:

My NR can't tell who this is addressed to as it's under Jan's but the quote
is from my message. I have between 20 and 25 koi that are up to 6 years
old, about 120 year old koi (that are being delivered this coming week) and
probably 50 goldfish of various sizes and ages. That's why we buy our feed
in 50 lb bags. Last year they and all the fry went through about 100
lbs of
feed. We have a long feeding season here in TN, from mid/late March to
late
Nov or early Dec.

120 koi? Wow. Where are you going to put them all? Are any BF koi?
Yellow BF koi are my absolute fave, with orange a close second. :-)

--
Put the word aquaria in the subject to reply.
Did you read the FAQ? http://faq.thekrib.com

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:13:05 GMT, Altum wrote:

Koi-Lo wrote:

My NR can't tell who this is addressed to as it's under Jan's but the quote
is from my message. I have between 20 and 25 koi that are up to 6 years
old, about 120 year old koi (that are being delivered this coming week) and
probably 50 goldfish of various sizes and ages. That's why we buy our feed
in 50 lb bags. Last year they and all the fry went through about 100
lbs of
feed. We have a long feeding season here in TN, from mid/late March to
late
Nov or early Dec.

120 koi? Wow. Where are you going to put them all? Are any BF koi?
Yellow BF koi are my absolute fave, with orange a close second. :-)


I thought you had ordered some really old koi. I was going to ask how
long koi lived.

Galen Hekhuis NpD, JFR, GWA
Stings like a butterfly, floats like a bee

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...
~ janj wrote:

I don't think any of us here on this newsgroup has a koi in the 50 year
age range, that they've raised in a garden pond setting. When someone
does, that's the person who will get my attention. I bet we find out it
comes down to not just processed food, but quite a bit of natural whole
foods too. ) jmo, ~ jan

On the side of the cheap-food feeders, there's the argument that nobody
here
has a koi in the 50 year age range :-)

I've never lost a koi to disease or starvation. I don't intend to fatten
them up on expensive food just for the sake of the Herons and Raccoons :-)
(I doubt anyone would ever accuse me of overfeeding, either).
====================
They always seem to fall back on those using cheaper feeds as "overfeeding"
their fish. My koi and GF ate the *SAME AMOUNT* of expensive foods they did
the cheaper foods when I switched. My filters still had to be cleaned every
2 weeks or so - there was no difference in the amount of feces, mulm or
algae. They spawn perfect fry with almost 99% survival rate. So why feed
the expensive foods? I just don't get it?!?!?!

It kind of reminds me of the vets who charge the farmer 25¢ for a capsule of
antibiotic and the poodle owner $2.50.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Gareee©" wrote in message
...
"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...

On the side of the cheap-food feeders, there's the argument that nobody
here
has a koi in the 50 year age range :-)

My opinion? I'm cheap, I spend as little as I can when I shop for myself,
and the fish aren't any better then me.
======================
Gareee, look at the pics of the GF and Koi on my website below - do they
look obese, half dead and/or sick from trout, catfish, puppy and kitty chow?
The pics I see of show koi are all fatter than my koi. Some look like
stuffed sausages that couldn't even turn around if their life depended on
it! I'm with you and don't plan to make a few obscenely greedy feed
companies richer......
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at: http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"Altum" wrote in message
. net...
Koi-Lo wrote:

My NR can't tell who this is addressed to as it's under Jan's but the
quote
is from my message. I have between 20 and 25 koi that are up to 6 years
old, about 120 year old koi (that are being delivered this coming week)
and
probably 50 goldfish of various sizes and ages. That's why we buy our
feed
in 50 lb bags. Last year they and all the fry went through about 100 lbs
of
feed. We have a long feeding season here in TN, from mid/late March to
late
Nov or early Dec.

120 koi? Wow. Where are you going to put them all?

Almost all are being delivered (next week) to a store in the city that sells
pond fish and supplies. :-) I also have about 6 adults that he'll take in
a few weeks. We have to remove some from the 2000g pond as it's getting
overcrowded.

Are any BF koi?

Yes, many of them being sold are BFs. But I will still have a 680g tank of
about 25 small butterflies because I haven't decided which to keep for
myself yet. I want them to pattern and color up a bit more before I sell
them. Eventually I will have *only* butterfly koi. They're definitely much
more beautiful than the short-fin koi. I have both scaled and scaleless,
mirror and diamond-scale BF koi in many colors. I even have two
ghost-diamond-scale BF koi.

Yellow BF koi are my absolute fave, with orange a close second. :-)

YEP!!! I love the orange and yellow diamond-scale butterflies and have
several breeders. :-)) My 800g has nothing but young adult diamond-scale
butterflies. I also have a gorgeous blue mirror butterfly.
--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
rec.pond's FAQ are at:
http://www.geocities.com/justinm090/faq.html
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

I hate to jump into this thread as it is a pretty passionate one here - I
have to agree with Jan as I went thru the same experience as Jan a few years
ago - my cat had to go in for a operation and the vet gave us some "high
end" food for her recovery - 3 days later we called him as she was passing
almost no waste compared to before and we were worried something was wrong -
he said the food we were feeding her before was loaded with filler and less
nutrients that she could use - it was not medicated, just more expensive
food because of less filler, ergo less waste to pass - I went to better food
for the pond and now clean my upflow filter once a season rather than 3 to 4
times / season with same amount of food (my choice - I spoil my pets when
they beg :~) )

Gale :~)
I found that out with dog food years ago. Small dog, grocery store "cheap"
brand, feed 3 cups. Higher priced, but vet recommended brand, feed 1 cup.
Price difference, practically nil, when one takes in that ratio. Big
difference, how much comes out the other end.

In fish, if your filter can handle it, and you're not worried about the
other concerns, no biggie. With dogs, again if you're not worried about
health concerns (which was the reason that made us switch), if you don't
mind picking up more poo. No biggie.

I don't think any of us here on this newsgroup has a koi in the 50 year
age
range, that they've raised in a garden pond setting. When someone does,
that's the person who will get my attention. I bet we find out it comes
down to not just processed food, but quite a bit of natural whole foods
too. ) jmo, ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

G Pearce wrote:
I hate to jump into this thread as it is a pretty passionate one here - I
have to agree with Jan as I went thru the same experience as Jan a few years
ago - my cat had to go in for a operation and the vet gave us some "high
end" food for her recovery - 3 days later we called him as she was passing
almost no waste compared to before and we were worried something was wrong -
he said the food we were feeding her before was loaded with filler and less
nutrients that she could use - it was not medicated, just more expensive
food because of less filler, ergo less waste to pass - I went to better food
for the pond and now clean my upflow filter once a season rather than 3 to 4
times / season with same amount of food (my choice - I spoil my pets when
they beg :~) )

Gale :~)


OK, I hate to jump into this as well but....now I will certainly agree
that there are fish foods as well as other pet foods on the market that
do not contain as much fibre or filler - hmmm, aren't we all encouraged
to eat fibre that we cannot digest as part of a healthy diet??? and
doesn't this apply to the health of our fish as well....a natural
balanced diet contains protein, roughage, vitamins, minerals etc in fact
fibre is seen as a very posititive thing for our well being and the
health issues without it are quite significant - it might suit us if our
pets poop a little less but I very much doubt that it is beneficial to
their health....our medics would be in a panic if we didn't produce
sufficient waste products diagnosing all sorts of stuff...over here, in
the UK, the more regular and sufficient quantity the better (without
wanting to get gross) for our health as far as our medics and health
education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different...

Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying
cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...the
fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is
purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? or is that just
another marketing ploy....if the fish are breeding and healthy and have
good colour do we need to take issue just because of a labelling issue????

Gill

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 10:15:11 -0700, ~ janj
wrote:
snip
I don't think any of us here on this newsgroup has a koi in the 50 year age
range, that they've raised in a garden pond setting. When someone does,
that's the person who will get my attention. I bet we find out it comes
down to not just processed food, but quite a bit of natural whole foods
too. ) jmo, ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a
Perhaps not, but I do have two koi and a few white amur that were
placed in the pond back in early to mid 80's and are doing just fine?
I have to think that a natural pond and chepaer food is more of a
better deal than a liner type pond and cheaper food would be. I can
probably in all reality, get by without feeding anything to the fish
at all and they would do just fine, but that takes a wqay a lot of fun
and getting them to be so frieindly. Oh and corn, well, my babies
would have to dissagree on that too, as many a time I set out by the
pond and share a lage bag of Popcorn with them, often times popping a
bag just for them..They like the cheese flavored or the extra butter
flavor best.
--
\\\|///
( @ @ )
-----------oOOo(_)oOOo---------------


oooO
---------( )----Oooo----------------
\ ( ( )
\_) ) /
(_/
The original frugal ponder ! Koi-ahoi mates....

"Koi-Lo" wrote in message
...

Gareee, look at the pics of the GF and Koi on my website below - do they
look obese, half dead and/or sick from trout, catfish, puppy and kitty
chow? The pics I see of show koi are all fatter than my koi. Some look
like stuffed sausages that couldn't even turn around if their life
depended on it! I'm with you and don't plan to make a few obscenely
greedy feed companies richer......

Yep.. I can see no reason why I can buy 50 lbs of food for $6 or for $30.. I
might was well buy the fish shrimp and toss it in there.

Course I suppose if I was making $300,000 a year then I would buy the
expensive food, just because I could.

--
Gareee©
(Gary Tabar Jr.)

On Thu, 06 Apr 2006 21:13:05 GMT, Altum wrote:

Yellow BF koi are my absolute fave, with orange a close second. :-)

Oh man, I wish I had a digital picture to send you of some of my 2 year
olds. Yellow and black. One of them currently has fins that are orange &
black, while the body is yellow and black. The fins look just like a
leopard, very cool. I'm down to culling so I'm not over crowded, and the
choice is really hard, after culling several times before this last year.
In fact, this time around I'm selling my first baby who is now 5-6 years
old. The bigger the fish, the more room I gain. :-) I was also going to
sell Wally, at BF (butterfly) koi I got for a $1.50 at Walmart over 10
years ago. I recently found out he's a Kikokuryu. The interesting thing
about this fish, is the pattern changes on his head. At one point it looked
like a cat face, with whiskers, ears, eyes, etc. This year it looks like a
black spider with 6 legs. Kind of hard to sell him now, as I really like an
odd koi. ;-) Yeah, yeah.... Takes after the owner. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:26:18 +0100, Gill Passman wrote:

OK, I hate to jump into this as well but....now I will certainly agree
that there are fish foods as well as other pet foods on the market that
do not contain as much fibre or filler - hmmm, aren't we all encouraged
to eat fibre that we cannot digest as part of a healthy diet???

But we're omnivores, cats & dogs are carnivores, last I heard. ;o)
Therefore pooping more than twice/day isn't necessary. On non-digestible
fillers, a dog can poop up to 4 or more times/day. Personally I wish the
fillers in my diet would go elsewhere if you know what I mean.

education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different...

Hmmm, I think there are a few PhD's that would beg to differ, but I'm not
going to argue their points. Way too over my head.

Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying
cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...

Using dog food or cat chow was suggested at one point.

the fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is
purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? Gill

No guarantees, one has to read the label. "Koi" food, even high priced
stuff, can have non-digestible filler in it. Corn being the biggest
problem, in that the fish LOVE it, it is their equivalent to candy. That is
why koivet says not to use a fish food with corn in the 1st three
ingredients. There's no evil in giving them treats, after all, that's the
fun part of having a fish pond, feeding the little piggies, and thinking we
see them smile. Are we goofy or what?

Now there is the worry of corn toxic fungus. I wonder if freezing would
kill such fungus? ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a

My little learning curve started when I started eating Atkins type foods and felt
immensely better. Then I got asthma and tested out allergic to wheat and corn.
pffft. Then I inherited my mothers dog HoneyChild who was allergic to everything
except the fish and potato dog food. Then Harry P our springer was flaking, itching
and getting hot spots on purina. HoneyChild developed congestive heart disease from
lousy crudded up teeth and 1500 bucks later we took home a half dead dog and put her
on "heart" and "kidney" diet which she was allergic to. She was harking nearly all
the time, she lost almost all her fur and what was left was like straw. and they gave
her 6 mo- 1 year (this was May of last year)
I said this is total bullshit and decided to go to a species appropriate diet for all
the dogs. Honey gets raw whole fish, the rest get raw meaty bone whatever is
cheapest and on sale at a local discount grocery. Harry recovered, Honey recovered
and has a soft as silk thick coat again, no harking and if she drops dead tomorrow
she will have had quality of life. No more foul breath or gummed up and loose teeth
in my dogs. http://weloveteaching.com/mutts/mutts.htm

While signed up with the raw feeding list I did some quick calculations on the price
of regular dog food and raw meat. It is hard to know how much of regular dog food is
corn or wheat or other cheap fillers, but plain old corn is really cheap and dog food
really isnt. So I give Harry 1lb of meat, usually between 29-69 cents a pound. When
stuff is on sale we buy 20-30 lbs at a time and toss it in the freezer. We also ask
people on local list if they are emptying out their freeze burned meat to drop it
off, likewise with venison, likewise people who fish.

This also got me to thinking about ferrets and how our ferrets never lived much
beyond 4 years which broke my heart, and I finally found a site where the guy started
feeding his ferrets species appropriate foods, rabbits, and the ferrets started
living well beyond 10 years.

I started feeding my koi high quality food before the light bulb above went off, but
since then I have learned that koi digest proteins and fats, and not carbohydrates.
that they have pretty short intestines and that too much food at once just passes
thru them cause they dont have a stomach. the bulkier and drier the food the less
chance it will get digested too. soon after I started feeding them better food they
quit whacking my water lilly. I only clean the mulm out of my veggie filter once a
year in fall when I put the pond to bed. 4 feet down on the bottom of my pond I can
still see the white tag that fell off the lily pot.

so I guess I would rather pay for krill and fish meal and feed small amounts rather
than pay a lot for large amounts of corn.
Ingrid

"G Pearce" wrote:
- my cat had to go in for a operation and the vet gave us some "high
end" food for her recovery - 3 days later we called him as she was passing
almost no waste compared to before and we were worried something was wrong -
he said the food we were feeding her before was loaded with filler and less
nutrients that she could use - it was not medicated, just more expensive
food because of less filler, ergo less waste to pass - I went to better food
for the pond and now clean my upflow filter once a season rather than 3 to 4
times / season with same amount of food (my choice - I spoil my pets when
they beg :~) )


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

Koi digest proteins and fats. these are contained in the little critters they have
evolved to feed on, the little worms, larvae, daphnia, etc. these little critters
live on the algae and water plants, and the worms are usually in the mud which is why
they root in plant pots and on the bottom. The algae they eat meets their "green"
needs, but algae is structurally completely different from land plants with all that
cellulose.
the problem with all that excess "poop" is that it is very rich in nutrients that
bacteria break down into wastes that foul the water. the poop of a healthy fish is
not "seen" hanging from their butt or sitting in strings on the bottom. It is
supposed to disintegrate when it hits the water (mostly seen in fish tanks).
the commercial fish food is cheap because it is "just" good enough to fatten up the
fish for one year and then they are "meat". there is no concern for long term
health. actually, anyone can buy fish food by buying krill in bulk. the breeders in
China specifically raise all kinds of live foods like blood worms, black worms to
feed the pond raised fish. they power feed them species appropriate foods to get
them large very fast. Ingrid


Gill Passman wrote:
a natural
balanced diet contains protein, roughage, vitamins, minerals etc in fact
fibre is seen as a very posititive thing for our well being and the
health issues without it are quite significant - it might suit us if our
pets poop a little less but I very much doubt that it is beneficial to
their health....our medics would be in a panic if we didn't produce
sufficient waste products diagnosing all sorts of stuff...over here, in
the UK, the more regular and sufficient quantity the better (without
wanting to get gross) for our health as far as our medics and health
education is concerned...I don't think animals are any different...

Now, I don't seem to remember anyone suggesting that they are buying
cheap food full of fillers just alternative commercial options...the
fish food for commercial use is cheaper because of the quantity it is
purchased in...does it need to say Koi on the label??? or is that just
another marketing ploy....if the fish are breeding and healthy and have
good colour do we need to take issue just because of a labelling issue????

Gill



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils
are also toxic. Ingrid

~ janj wrote:
Now there is the worry of corn toxic fungus. I wonder if freezing would
kill such fungus? ~ jan


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

no. the toxin contamination occurs in the corn prior to processing. and rancid oils
are also toxic. Ingrid

I assume the no, is directed at freezing won't kill, dang! 1st statement is
a worry, in that this toxic corn could end up in any feed. Bummer. ~ jan


~ jan/WA
Zone 7a