"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:37:11 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

What does? What Sandy wrote? If so, prove her wrong. ~ jan
===================
I don't think anyone can prove her right or wrong. What works for one
person
may not work too well for another under different conditions of pond size,
climate.... etc.

Why would a fish vet make something up, why would she put herself, her
professional reputation out there, by writing something erroneous?

What reason did she give for trout and catfish chow not being suitable for
pond koi that must have some fat and size to get them through zone 6 and
colder winters? I saw no mention of that. Or for adult koi living outdoors
where they supplement their diet with what ever enters the water? Also, why
would the researchers/Drs make up that HRT saved woman's bones and hearts
etc. when it clearly raised the breast cancer rate and killed them? What
about the tranquilizers that researchers/Dr's claimed were so good and safe
that had the depressed committing suicide and pulled from the market? Any
thinking reasoning person would want more than "just her word" for it.
After the so-called research I've read about, I have little faith in what
they claim. Now I want all the answers.....

She has
more knowledge, personal & educational then all of us combine and no
agenda, other than to give instruction on what is best for koi.

You still haven't told us what she's basing her "opinion" on. I want to
see what research she's done, under what conditions, who funded her
research, the age of the fish, the name brands she researched, where it was
done etc.

In this case, it has nothing to do with what works for one may not work
well for another.

Yes it worked well for the people who clued me in to the cheaper foods and
it works great for me.

That's always a given on how well one follows instruction
or how much common sense an individual has. It doesn't mean the science is
flawed, just the experimenter. ~ jan

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one until I have all the answers
regarding her research. See above. Also, there is no rational reason these
koi feeds should be so expensive. They contain no gold dust or magical
ingredients. It reminds me of the exact same antibiotic capsule the dog
owner pays the vet $3 for, we pay the pharmacist $5 for,.... and the farmer
only pays .50 for. Same drug from the same line made at the same
plant......
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"~ jan" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:48:01 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

Where is the research to back that up?

Like I said, you can google probably better than I. Go look for it.
Sandy's
write up is good enough for me.

I found nothing to answer my questions.

I'll wait until I see the research, who did the research, how many years
it
ran, what climate was involved, the age of the fish, who paid for it and
which brands of feed were used in these supposed long running trials. The
pictures of the autopsies should also be interesting.

Like I said, prove her wrong. ~ jan

It's not my place to prove her wrong when I can't even find the information
I want or would need on her research. She made the claim. It's her place to
prove herself right. Let her produce all the information to back her
claims. Meanwhile I'll go back to that worked so well before and we'll have
to agree to disagree on this one.

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
ups.com...
Jan,

Thanks for pursuing the article. Lots of good stuff in it.

She is very clear about not liking trout and catfish food. I am sorry
she does not discuss the deficiencies of it any further. I wonder if
they are they as simple as lacking vitamin C or bigger in the
composition of the food.

I don't know that I will move to more expensive food, but I have a
clear vet statement about not liking catfish food.

Now I need to find a supplier like the one that Roy has for cheap koi
food.
=========================
The cheapest koi food I found still runs $5 a lb. That adds up fast when
you have a lot of fish. I didn't see the benefits promised either. They ate
the same amount of the expensive feed as they did the cheaper feed. The
filters needed cleaning just as often. The algae was no worse or better.
The koi reached fall thinner than usual and had 4 months of fasting to
endure. The smallest ones already died. I wont repeat the same things
again.

The vet doesn't mention her reason for not liking the cheaper food and there
is no information on her research, what brands she used, under what
conditions etc. After being fooled by research results before, I want more
information than someone's word for something.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jan,

I took your suggestion of Googling. I tried 'koi catfish food'

Just beware of any site that's SELLING foods or recommends you to a site
that sells koi/goldfish food. They have a vested interest in most cases.

The chow I use is protein 36% (porcine and fish meals)
Fat is 5%
Fiber 6%
Calcium .50 to 1.00%
Phos 0.90%
Sodium 0.01 to 0.05%

Corn is listed as 3rd.

This is the last bag I bought this fall when I saw they were going into
winter underweight. But then the temps dropped. The 20 lb. bag was about
$12.00. I have not seen the loss of color mentioned, or obesity in my fish.
Unfortunately no brand names are mentioned. All have a different formula I'm
sure.


Interesting results:

-http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/FishHealth/Fattening.html

-http://www.arborman.com/fishfood.htm

-http://www.lonestarkoi.com/Articles/vitamins.html

These 3 seem the best to me. They do spell out their details. Not
research, but evidently knowledgable. Should help our discussion.

Jim

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

Phyllis and Jim wrote:
Jan,

I took your suggestion of Googling. I tried 'koi catfish food'

Interesting results:

-http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/FishHealth/Fattening.html

-http://www.arborman.com/fishfood.htm

-http://www.lonestarkoi.com/Articles/vitamins.html

These 3 seem the best to me. They do spell out their details. Not
research, but evidently knowledgable. Should help our discussion.

Jim

Interesting articles Jim......I wonder if a google search would find any
articles backing the feeding of Catfish/Trout Chow to Koi or
Goldfish.....might take a look later in the interest of trying to get a
balanced picture

Gill

~ jan wrote:
Right now I'm just doing some googling and found an article by Sandy Yosha,
who has no involvement with fish food makers. She was our vet for the KHA's
paid by the AKCA, she now works for a very big vet. clinic in Florida doing
only fish.

From this website:
http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/Ar...koi%20husb.pdf


A very interesting article, thanks Jan :-) I've saved a copy locally.
The information in there, not just that relating to food, is
excellent....She obviously knows her stuff.

Gill

Nick Cramer wrote:

I fed my koi on freeze dried krill (from Asahi Koi in
Garden Grove, CA). My SIL has been taking care of them for the last few
years and feeds them a lot of fresh and frozen worms, etc. They're now 15
years old, with no health problems.


Hi Nick
Do they also get any vitamin supplements or fruit along with what
appears to be a very good diet to me?

Gill

Gill,

I did not see any advocating catfish food for koi. I wish I had. I
will take a closer look at the ingredients of the food I have been
using when I start up in the spring.

Jim

"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
ps.com...
Gill,

I did not see any advocating catfish food for koi. I wish I had. I
will take a closer look at the ingredients of the food I have been
using when I start up in the spring.
========================
That's the best thing to do as my pictures show my fish have not lost color,
become obese nor are they dying after a few years. Quite the contrary.
Colors are excellent, they make it through the zone 6 winters and breed
several times before the heat of summer sets in.

We lost an adult female butterfly koi one winter after a prolonged cold
snap. That was I think, two or three winter's back. Not all catfish and
trout chows are created equal.......
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

If their made to industry standards and thats governed by what
dictates a marketable fish in a given period of time it is. Your
really clueless and make an awfull lot of assumptions based on
nothingness and guided by the unwillingness to spend a buck to get
and do whats right! Yea, go ahead dumbass call this an attack!

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:59:39 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:


"Phyllis and Jim" wrote in message
groups.com...
Gill,

I did not see any advocating catfish food for koi. I wish I had. I
will take a closer look at the ingredients of the food I have been
using when I start up in the spring.
========================
That's the best thing to do as my pictures show my fish have not lost color,
become obese nor are they dying after a few years. Quite the contrary.
Colors are excellent, they make it through the zone 6 winters and breed
several times before the heat of summer sets in.

We lost an adult female butterfly koi one winter after a prolonged cold
snap. That was I think, two or three winter's back. Not all catfish and
trout chows are created equal.......



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

Gill Passman wrote:
Nick Cramer wrote:

I fed my koi on freeze dried krill (from Asahi Koi in
Garden Grove, CA). My SIL has been taking care of them for the last few
years and feeds them a lot of fresh and frozen worms, etc. They're now
15 years old, with no health problems.


Hi Nick
Do they also get any vitamin supplements or fruit along with what
appears to be a very good diet to me?

Hi Gill,
When I was caring for them, they got fortified Koi food as well. I'll have
to ask my SIL what else he gives them. Over the years, I've lost three koi
and one goldfish. First, an Ogon started swimming on his side and looking
unhappy. I eventually put him down in the freezer. Then a Kohaku died.
Looked healthy. I did an autopsy and found she had been severely eggbound.
I also lost a Kohaku and a goldfish to a @#$%^&* Blue Heron before I netted
the pond. One 16" Ogon, one 14" Kohaku and one 8" goldfish remain in an 800
gallon pond with lots of vegetation.

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
~Semper Fi~ www.delphiayachtsusa.com

Nick Cramer wrote:


Hi Gill,
When I was caring for them, they got fortified Koi food as well. I'll have
to ask my SIL what else he gives them. Over the years, I've lost three koi
and one goldfish. First, an Ogon started swimming on his side and looking
unhappy. I eventually put him down in the freezer. Then a Kohaku died.
Looked healthy. I did an autopsy and found she had been severely eggbound.
I also lost a Kohaku and a goldfish to a @#$%^&* Blue Heron before I netted
the pond. One 16" Ogon, one 14" Kohaku and one 8" goldfish remain in an 800
gallon pond with lots of vegetation.


Sounds to me as if your fish live like Royalty....and good on you for
doing it :-) It is great to hear about.....

Did you read the stuff that Jan posted the link to under this
thread?.....I found the whole stuff about female Koi getting egg-bound
quite fascinating.......and also the vitamin stuff.....

I'm pretty sure that your SIL will be following your instructions on the
feeding - it sounds like they are doing a good job with the worms etc......

Gill

Gill Passman wrote:
Nick Cramer wrote:

Hi Gill,
When I was caring for them, they got fortified Koi food as well. I'll
have to ask my SIL what else he gives them. Over the years, I've lost
three koi and one goldfish. First, an Ogon started swimming on his side
and looking unhappy. I eventually put him down in the freezer. Then a
Kohaku died. Looked healthy. I did an autopsy and found she had been
severely eggbound. I also lost a Kohaku and a goldfish to a @#$%^&*
Blue Heron before I netted the pond. One 16" Ogon, one 14" Kohaku and
one 8" goldfish remain in an 800 gallon pond with lots of vegetation.


Sounds to me as if your fish live like Royalty....and good on you for
doing it :-) It is great to hear about.....

Did you read the stuff that Jan posted the link to under this
thread?.....I found the whole stuff about female Koi getting egg-bound
quite fascinating.......and also the vitamin stuff.....

I failed to DL it. Can you repost the URL for me, please?

I'm pretty sure that your SIL will be following your instructions on the
feeding - it sounds like they are doing a good job with the worms
etc......

My SIL, Dino, is primarily a reef guy. They have a 100 gallon reef tank in
the house, digital temperature control, day/night lighting, fresh seawater
exchanges, you name it. He also has a couple of tropical fish tanks.

He told me that he also feeds the koi some bagged or canned koi food.

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
~Semper Fi~ www.delphiayachtsusa.com

On 26 Feb 2007 22:57:09 GMT, Nick Cramer wrote:


I failed to DL it. Can you repost the URL for me, please?

From this website:
http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/Ar...koi%20husb.pdf

----
To clarify, I'm not concerned what an individual FEEDS their koi, only the
ADVICE they give to the masses that is so contrary to what others are
saying.... but then, it does give good room for discussion, I guess. ~ jan

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 23:17:37 GMT, ~ jan
wrote:

On 26 Feb 2007 22:57:09 GMT, Nick Cramer wrote:


I failed to DL it. Can you repost the URL for me, please?

From this website:
http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/Ar...koi%20husb.pdf

----
To clarify, I'm not concerned what an individual FEEDS their koi, only the
ADVICE they give to the masses that is so contrary to what others are
saying.... but then, it does give good room for discussion, I guess. ~ jan


That may be true, but falling over all these dead horses gets old
fast.


-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!