"~ jan" wrote in message
...
More info, apparently it isn't just the label, but are the ingredients
digestible by koi. Pasted by permission: ~ jan

Message from: KHA Tech Chris Neaves
Subject: necropsies - fatty livers
Response: Hi Jan,

I will look around for you for pictures - but off the top of my head:
Catfish food - high in carbohydrates : you will not need a picture for
this
as koi (carp) loose their body shape with high carbohydrates.

GREAT!!!! :-) As my pics show they have fine body shapes.

Trout chow : although I am a great believer in feeding koi a high protein
diet the trout food is very high in protein (to high for koi) at around
45%.

NOPE! This is 36% protein.

Too high in oils - around 12- 14%.

NOPE! This is 5.00% and gets them through the 4 to 4 1/2 month fast in
excellent condition. :-)

This will manifest its self in poor
skin quality. Although studies have demonstrated that carp can utilise
this
amount of oil. The source of oil is important. Should be marine oil. This
is rich in omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids. Trout food is mostly sinking.

WRONG! What I buy floats.

Dog food : low in protein and high in carbohydrates. Protein sources in
dog
food are things like meat and bone meal, blood meal, etc These raw
material
may be high in protein but they do not contain the correct balance and
quantities of amino acids that koi must have.

Cat Food : slightly higher than dog food in the protein but cat food use
chicken meal as a protein source. The oils in chicken meal are not easily
digested by koi. Also carbohydrate levels too high for koi.

Interesting.

It is critical to get a koi food with the right amino acid levels and
balance not only a certain percentage of protein. It is also imperative to
get foods which have high levels of vitamin C, E and A. Higher than found
in cat and dog food. Vitamin C is excellent for healing and the immune
system it is also a very good natural anit-oxidant. High levels of vitamin
C is an essential component of collagen and thus vital to the connective
tissues as well as the bone matrix and scar tissue healing. Remember the
bone structure of our koi is vital to body shape. Deficiency in vitamin C
leads to a marked reduction in wound healing capacity, skeleton
malformations etc and a tendency to haemorrhage and secondary infections.

Never saw any of this in any of my koi, GF or rosy reds. Deformed fish are
very rare.

Vitamin E is a very good natural anti-oxidant inside the body. Deficiency
in vitamin E results in a wide range of problems. These are mostly
associated with muscle and fat tissue and include muscular dropsy. Again
bear in mind that not only the skeleton but the muscles are an important
factor in body shape of our koi.

Vitamin A shortages produce reduced growth. Vitamin A is essential in
maintaining epithelial cells. The skin of our koi is important for lustre,
it houses the colour patterns etc.

The feed I use contains Vitamin A acetate plus they have access to plenty of
algae and plant matter.

The carbohydrate sources in cat and dog food as well as cat fish food use
cheap raw materials such as yellow maize meal - I believe you called it
corn. The yellow maize meal has pigments that will affect the whites on
our
koi. More expensive white, finely ground maize meal is far better.

My white koi are WHITE as snow as the pics show. :-)

These are some of the things I can think of regarding the differences
between different food sources.

There is one overall consideration. Placing two koi ponds back to back and
feeding a good koi food to one pond and a dog food to another will result
in very different results.

I don't think anyone would feed pure dog food to pond fish.

This will occur over time. By the time you have
realised that the koi in the first pond are out growing the second pond
and
by the time you realise there is a massive difference in colour, skin
lustre and body shape it is almost too late. The damage has been done.

There was a case in this country some years ago where a manufacture of
trout pellets accidently produce a batch with out adding a vitamin /
mineral pre mix. By the end of the growing season the trout farmers who
used this food noticed significantly less growth than in previous seasons.
Tests were done and the cause found. There were legal repercussions but *
the damage had been done.

And that can't happen at any manfg plant?

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Reel McKoi" wrote in message
...

"cat daddy" wrote in message
...

"Ocean Breeze" wrote in message
...
Screwed up and put your sig on the wrong sock again, Carol.
=====================
Why are you only interested in my NYMs when we have several people
NYM-shifting on this group?

Because only you have repeatedly lied about doing it. What others do
does
not absolve you of guilt.
====================================
Guilt? It's a CRIME to have more than one NYN? Not on Usenet it isn't.
You asked and I told you the truth. When I'm accused of being someone
else's sock I have no reason not to speak up and deny it.

What I don't understand is why you don't killfile me. If your NR doesn't
have a killfile there are free ones out there that do.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:27:31 GMT, ~ jan
wrote:

More info, apparently it isn't just the label, but are the ingredients
digestible by koi. Pasted by permission: ~ jan

Message from: KHA Tech Chris Neaves
Subject: necropsies - fatty livers
Response: Hi Jan,

I will look around for you for pictures - but off the top of my head:
Catfish food - high in carbohydrates : you will not need a picture for this
as koi (carp) loose their body shape with high carbohydrates.

I think CArol has problems interpreting the issue with catfish foods
;-)

Trout chow : although I am a great believer in feeding koi a high protein
diet the trout food is very high in protein (to high for koi) at around
45%. Too high in oils - around 12- 14%. This will manifest its self in poor
skin quality. Although studies have demonstrated that carp can utilise this
amount of oil. The source of oil is important. Should be marine oil. This
is rich in omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids. Trout food is mostly sinking.
Ditto for trout as for caatfish in regards to comprehensin with CArol
Gulley......


dog food for Carol is too $$$ to feed....

Cat Food : slightly higher than dog food in the protein but cat food use
chicken meal as a protein source. The oils in chicken meal are not easily
digested by koi. Also carbohydrate levels too high for koi.


Now your talking, Wally World Special Kitty brand cat food is Carols
style. The food of choice for Koi professionals like Carol
Gulley.........Only a fool would buy high dollar koi foods when
Special Kitty does so well..........even in a study without a control
group........

It is critical to get a koi food with the right amino acid levels and
balance not only a certain percentage of protein. It is also imperative to
get foods which have high levels of vitamin C, E and A. Higher than found
in cat and dog food. Vitamin C is excellent for healing and the immune
system it is also a very good natural anit-oxidant. High levels of vitamin
C is an essential component of collagen and thus vital to the connective
tissues as well as the bone matrix and scar tissue healing. Remember the
bone structure of our koi is vital to body shape. Deficiency in vitamin C
leads to a marked reduction in wound healing capacity, skeleton
malformations etc and a tendency to haemorrhage and secondary infections.

Vitamin E is a very good natural anti-oxidant inside the body. Deficiency
in vitamin E results in a wide range of problems. These are mostly
associated with muscle and fat tissue and include muscular dropsy. Again
bear in mind that not only the skeleton but the muscles are an important
factor in body shape of our koi.

Vitamin A shortages produce reduced growth. Vitamin A is essential in
maintaining epithelial cells. The skin of our koi is important for lustre,
it houses the colour patterns etc.

The carbohydrate sources in cat and dog food as well as cat fish food use
cheap raw materials such as yellow maize meal - I believe you called it
corn. The yellow maize meal has pigments that will affect the whites on our
koi. More expensive white, finely ground maize meal is far better.

These are some of the things I can think of regarding the differences
between different food sources.

There is one overall consideration. Placing two koi ponds back to back and
feeding a good koi food to one pond and a dog food to another will result
in very different results. This will occur over time. By the time you have
realised that the koi in the first pond are out growing the second pond and
by the time you realise there is a massive difference in colour, skin
lustre and body shape it is almost too late. The damage has been done.

There was a case in this country some years ago where a manufacture of
trout pellets accidently produce a batch with out adding a vitamin /
mineral pre mix. By the end of the growing season the trout farmers who
used this food noticed significantly less growth than in previous seasons.
Tests were done and the cause found. There were legal repercussions but *
the damage had been done.

Too bad for Carols fish, as all this good info has probably gone right
over her head and she does not have the comprehension to understand
what is really being stated...so her fish lose!

I hear Beer, cigarettes, bananas and hot dogs and cat food are the
main staples of food and necessities in the Gulley household.....


-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:03:29 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:


"~ jan" wrote in message
m...
More info, apparently it isn't just the label, but are the ingredients
digestible by koi. Pasted by permission: ~ jan

Message from: KHA Tech Chris Neaves
Subject: necropsies - fatty livers
Response: Hi Jan,

I will look around for you for pictures - but off the top of my head:
Catfish food - high in carbohydrates : you will not need a picture for
this
as koi (carp) loose their body shape with high carbohydrates.

GREAT!!!! :-) As my pics show they have fine body shapes.

Yea right, fat ass internally and externally, bout like their owner.



Trout chow : although I am a great believer in feeding koi a high protein
diet the trout food is very high in protein (to high for koi) at around
45%.

NOPE! This is 36% protein.


Leave it to lunatic carol to find cut rate trout chows......what doyou
expect.....she pays attention to numbers not ingredients.......can we
all say CArol is a dumbass!
Too high in oils - around 12- 14%.

NOPE! This is 5.00% and gets them through the 4 to 4 1/2 month fast in
excellent condition. :-)


We all figured you would have found a lower source if it was too high
and a higher source if it was too low.Carols nothing but a
pathological liar. If it was not for Jan spelling out Trout, she
would still be at a loss how to spell it.
This will manifest its self in poor
skin quality. Although studies have demonstrated that carp can utilise
this
amount of oil. The source of oil is important. Should be marine oil. This
is rich in omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids. Trout food is mostly sinking.

WRONG! What I buy floats.

Yep carol is just too smart (read smart ASS) to get hooked into buying
trout food that wold not be suitable.....

Dog food : low in protein and high in carbohydrates. Protein sources in
dog
food are things like meat and bone meal, blood meal, etc These raw
material
may be high in protein but they do not contain the correct balance and
quantities of amino acids that koi must have.

Cat Food : slightly higher than dog food in the protein but cat food use
chicken meal as a protein source. The oils in chicken meal are not easily
digested by koi. Also carbohydrate levels too high for koi.


Whats interesting, you feed special kitty and its your preferred
choice in feeds.........you freaking hipocrite!
Interesting.

It is critical to get a koi food with the right amino acid levels and
balance not only a certain percentage of protein. It is also imperative to
get foods which have high levels of vitamin C, E and A. Higher than found
in cat and dog food. Vitamin C is excellent for healing and the immune
system it is also a very good natural anit-oxidant. High levels of vitamin
C is an essential component of collagen and thus vital to the connective
tissues as well as the bone matrix and scar tissue healing. Remember the
bone structure of our koi is vital to body shape. Deficiency in vitamin C
leads to a marked reduction in wound healing capacity, skeleton
malformations etc and a tendency to haemorrhage and secondary infections.

Never saw any of this in any of my koi, GF or rosy reds. Deformed fish are
very rare.

As long as they resemble her brain or body shape they are considered
normal.........Carol unfortunately is aperson that denies the facts
and has a very very deformed and diseased brain.........and is very
deficieint in more than one area........

Vitamin E is a very good natural anti-oxidant inside the body. Deficiency
in vitamin E results in a wide range of problems. These are mostly
associated with muscle and fat tissue and include muscular dropsy. Again
bear in mind that not only the skeleton but the muscles are an important
factor in body shape of our koi.

Vitamin A shortages produce reduced growth. Vitamin A is essential in
maintaining epithelial cells. The skin of our koi is important for lustre,
it houses the colour patterns etc.

The feed I use contains Vitamin A acetate plus they have access to plenty of
algae and plant matter.

Yea yea we hear ya lying bitch!

The carbohydrate sources in cat and dog food as well as cat fish food use
cheap raw materials such as yellow maize meal - I believe you called it
corn. The yellow maize meal has pigments that will affect the whites on
our
koi. More expensive white, finely ground maize meal is far better.

My white koi are WHITE as snow as the pics show. :-)

What age were you when you stopped wearing white Carol..6, 8 year sof
age........what would you know about white pure white........I bet old
toadstool randy wore black when he finally realized what he got
himself tangled up wioth!

These are some of the things I can think of regarding the differences
between different food sources.

There is one overall consideration. Placing two koi ponds back to back and
feeding a good koi food to one pond and a dog food to another will result
in very different results.

I don't think anyone would feed pure dog food to pond fish.

I bet you already tried it carol but found out you could get cat food
at wally world cheaper........

This will occur over time. By the time you have
realised that the koi in the first pond are out growing the second pond
and
by the time you realise there is a massive difference in colour, skin
lustre and body shape it is almost too late. The damage has been done.

There was a case in this country some years ago where a manufacture of
trout pellets accidently produce a batch with out adding a vitamin /
mineral pre mix. By the end of the growing season the trout farmers who
used this food noticed significantly less growth than in previous seasons.
Tests were done and the cause found. There were legal repercussions but *
the damage had been done.

And that can't happen at any manfg plant?


Little mioss perfect CArol Gulley is the only one able to do the
opposite of what is considered normal abd get tremendous results, yet
if she did what is consdered normal she gets terrible
results.....Typical from a bi polar dumbass loon like she
is.........with out a clue as to what she is even talking about!



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Tristin" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 10:03:29 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

The moderated group will love your personal attacks on people... especially
those where you use obscenities and sexually explicit language.



"~ jan" wrote in message
m...
More info, apparently it isn't just the label, but are the
ingredients
digestible by koi. Pasted by permission: ~ jan


Snip warped depraved nonsense........
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Reel McKoi" wrote:


The moderated group will love your personal attacks on people..

Give it a rest.
You're as bad as the trolls.

I'm cranky today, and I'm dang tired of the name changes to avoid filtering
by allegedly "reasonable" people.

And my pond is still frozen.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

"Tristin" aka (Roy wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:27:31 GMT, ~
wrote: /SNIP
===========================
Seek professional help Roy. You're going off the deep end again. The Doc's
at the VA are qualified to help you before you go postal and murder
someone... like you wife or a neighbor. You can't be cured but you can be
treated.

Also, you lied and said you were going to stop replying to my every message
with your depraved ranting and gibbering. You couldn't last 2 days - how
pathetic!

snip depraved nonsence
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

tsk tsk tsk Gary, get a clue dude, Carol is the troll and the reason
this and other groups are like they are......Calling CArol Gulley a
reasonable individual is like calling the Devil to ask his opinion on
how to get to heaven.



On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:40:55 GMT, Gary Woods
wrote:

"Reel McKoi" wrote:


The moderated group will love your personal attacks on people..

Give it a rest.
You're as bad as the trolls.

I'm cranky today, and I'm dang tired of the name changes to avoid filtering
by allegedly "reasonable" people.

And my pond is still frozen.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G



-------
I forgot more about ponds and koi than I'll ever know!

"Gary Woods" wrote in message
...
"Reel McKoi" wrote:


The moderated group will love your personal attacks on people..

Give it a rest.
You're as bad as the trolls.

I'm cranky today, and I'm dang tired of the name changes to avoid
filtering
by allegedly "reasonable" people.

And my pond is still frozen.
=======================
The ice is off our ponds. I started the pumps on the 2000g and two of the
650g tanks today. I still have the smaller pond and the 650g goldfish tub to
do. We finally fixed the waterfall on the 150g inground pond. It needs to
be cleaned out though. The water looks too murky for the small filter to
handle.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

5% is high for fish facing a 4 month fast? Now I see why people's koi die
during the winter fast. They have no reserves to survive the winter fast.
The brand I use Nutri Source Farm Pond Diet. Why are you suddenly so
concerned about what I feed since you've known this information for 8 years
and never said a word before?

I looked up the brand and couldn't find anything with the numbers you
mentioned, but if the ingredients are digestible by the koi gut, as you
know, you're fine.

That's not to say those using koi foods are suffering deaths. My babies did
quite well on koi food and I've had no trouble selling them, not that that
is my goal. Most likely it is the brand they were using. You didn't mention
the koi food you used that you had problems with, why all prudent now?
Seems you'd want to get that information out if it produced poor results.

Yet someone else can
recommend people illegally shoot and kill protected birds and you say
nothing. Koi are not endangered, many of our birds are.

If you want to start a new thread about this, do so, but don't pull this
topic off on to something unrelated. ~ jan

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
5% is high for fish facing a 4 month fast? Now I see why people's koi
die
during the winter fast. They have no reserves to survive the winter fast.
The brand I use Nutri Source Farm Pond Diet. Why are you suddenly so
concerned about what I feed since you've known this information for 8
years
and never said a word before?
===
I looked up the brand and couldn't find anything with the numbers you
mentioned, but if the ingredients are digestible by the koi gut, as you
know, you're fine.

It's manufactured by Feed Solutions of St. Lewis Mo.

That's not to say those using koi foods are suffering deaths. My babies
did
quite well on koi food and I've had no trouble selling them, not that that
is my goal. Most likely it is the brand they were using. You didn't
mention
the koi food you used that you had problems with, why all prudent now?
Seems you'd want to get that information out if it produced poor results.

I don't care if the information gets out. People are going to believe and
buy what they want no matter what they read here. We live in a sue-crazy
society and the two trolls would quickly make sure the company who made the
food would get my post. Uh, no thanks. ;-) Also, I can't know if the
results would have been different under different climactic conditions
(steady 75F year round), different stains of koi (more expensive or cheaper
fish) or koi of different ages (the article mentioned 3 year olds). I gave
you my experience with the expensive food and for some reason you refuse to
accept it. Had I gotten at least the SAME results as I got with the cheaper
foods I would have said so.

Yet someone else can
recommend people illegally shoot and kill protected birds and you say
nothing. Koi are not endangered, many of our birds are.

If you want to start a new thread about this, do so, but don't pull this
topic off on to something unrelated. ~ jan

It's useless to start a new thread as those left here don't seem to care
about people being advised to illegally kill herons. Those who do care are
too intimidated to speak up least they face the same abuse (personal
attacks, slander) I get daily, mainly from a certain regular here.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 22:59:44 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

Also, I can't know if the
results would have been different under different climactic conditions
(steady 75F year round), different stains of koi (more expensive or cheaper
fish) or koi of different ages (the article mentioned 3 year olds). I gave
you my experience with the expensive food and for some reason you refuse to
accept it.

Oh I accept it, but myself and others are the ones that pointed out to you
the sentence you said before it.

It's useless to start a new thread as those left here don't seem to care
about people being advised to illegally kill herons.

Lately you're the only one who keeps bringing this up, basically used to
attack another or draw them off the topic, or, imo, beat a dead horse/your
own agenda. I know you see this as a jab, but if the shoe fits.... ~ jan

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 22:59:44 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

Also, I can't know if the
results would have been different under different climactic conditions
(steady 75F year round), different stains of koi (more expensive or
cheaper
fish) or koi of different ages (the article mentioned 3 year olds). I
gave
you my experience with the expensive food and for some reason you refuse
to
accept it.

Oh I accept it, but myself and others are the ones that pointed out to you
the sentence you said before it.

Which sentence I said before it? ???

It's useless to start a new thread as those left here don't seem to care
about people being advised to illegally kill herons.

Lately you're the only one who keeps bringing this up,

So it's now a taboo subject here? Why keep bringing up the koi food issue?
The food thread's been going on for days now. Not meaning to sound rude
but - are we to only discuss what interests you?

basically used to
attack another or draw them off the topic,

That's your opinion. The feed issue has been beaten to death while ignoring
another issue just as important to ponders and more so, to future
generations.

or, imo, beat a dead horse/your
own agenda.

And the koi feed is your agenda. It looks like we all have our own agendas.

I know you see this as a jab, but if the shoe fits.... ~ jan

Does the shoe fit you Jan? It appears "jabs" help alleviate your angst
over the situation this group is in. There are healthier ways to deal with
your anger and frustration. As for beating dead horses... I think you beat
the dead horse feed issue long enough.

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

Also, I can't know if the
results would have been different under different climactic conditions
(steady 75F year round), different stains of koi (more expensive or
cheaper
fish) or koi of different ages (the article mentioned 3 year olds). I
gave
you my experience with the expensive food and for some reason you refuse
to
accept it.

Oh I accept it, but myself and others are the ones that pointed out to you
the sentence you said before it.

Which sentence I said before it? ???

This one you typed:

Also, I can't know if the results would have been different under different
climactic conditions (steady 75F year round), different stains of koi (more
expensive or cheaper fish) or koi of different ages (the article mentioned
3 year olds).

It's useless to start a new thread as those left here don't seem to care
about people being advised to illegally kill herons.

Lately you're the only one who keeps bringing this up,

So it's now a taboo subject here?

I asked you to move it to a different thread if it interested you so much,
that was all.

Why keep bringing up the koi food issue?

Because other people are interested, not just those who want to fight the
issue. You yourself asked for more information, now you're complaining
because I'm giving/finding it?

The food thread's been going on for days now. Not meaning to sound rude
but - are we to only discuss what interests you?

snip rest of unreasonable blah, blah, blah used to attack or enflame.
~ jan

"~ jan" wrote in message
...

Feed issue is considered dead and finished so I snipped it.

It's useless to start a new thread as those left here don't seem to care
about people being advised to illegally kill herons.

Lately you're the only one who keeps bringing this up,

So it's now a taboo subject here?

I asked you to move it to a different thread if it interested you so much,
that was all.

OK. No use though as there isn't one person left here who would dare to
discuss it in fear of becoming another victim as I and even more people on
the reef group have become.

Why keep bringing up the koi food issue?

Because other people are interested, not just those who want to fight the
issue.

snip rest of unreasonable blah, blah, blah used to attack or enflame or
encourage the trolls. I have no time to read it and must go prune my
tulips........
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o