On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:26:20 -0600, Tristin
wrote:

Dunno where the area of not understanding lies,

You attached it to my comment that said nothing about cat food, and you
didn't clarify, so one could only assume you were talking about my comments
regarding Sandy. :-)

I just do not agree
that feeding of koi or goldies catfish or cat food is prudent....I
class it as erroneous info...and a practice touted by folks that have
no regard forthe health and longevity of their fish......

I'm in total agreement with that statement.

Hell I know lots of kids that thought a coca cola and bag of potatoe
chips was the average american meal and a big mac and french fries was
something that you endulged your self on for a Sunday "cooked meal out
on the town " with......
Sure those kids looked fine and healty too......nice and fat and plump
but no telling what else all that fat and plumpness was hding in rthe
way of health problems.

Yup, even buff, thin people can have clogged arteries from that diet. Like
that commercial where the high cholesterol number is chasing the snow skier
down the mountain. ~ jan

wrote:
[ . . . ]
I think the same is true of fish. Koi and Goldfish dont eat "veggies",
they eat the itty bitty critters on the algae. In China and Japan they
power feed the young ones live food like blood worms, black worms,
daphnia, etc. all manner of "meat". I have been feeding my koi a high
quality koi food, Rangen koi color. It isnt ideal, but I havent had any
disease in my fish since I went to this food (and a veggie filter and
heating the pond in winter). So I dont really know which is responsible
for the health of my fish. In spring I do see a little bit of white crap
on a few of them, especially my black koi which show everything. But as
the water warms it goes away.

I feed my 22 fish about 1/2 cup a day. The less waste grains in the
food, the less mess in the water, the less ammonia too. This coming year
I am going to look for even more natural food, something like this
http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/FISH...dy_freeze_drie
d.html
[ . . . ]

Hi, Ingrid,

Thanks for that. Very informative. I fed my first Doberman raw beef. He was
healthy as a horse! I fed my koi on freeze dried krill (from Asahi Koi in
Garden Grove, CA). My SIL has been taking care of them for the last few
years and feeds them a lot of fresh and frozen worms, etc. They're now 15
years old, with no health problems.

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
~Semper Fi~ www.delphiayachtsusa.com

"Killjoy" wrote in message
ink.net...
Trout and catfish chows are formulated to grow trout and catfish as large
as possible as quickly as possible in order to get them to your table as
cheaply as possible.

These fish are collected for consumption when they are no more than 2
years old.

The feeds are formulated for fast growth, NOT the longterm (meaning many
years) health and well being of said fish.

Healthy KOI will live for 40+ years
==========================
Some of mine have 30 more years to go then. ;-)
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
I met Sandy, I respect her knowledge, I know she doesn't work for the
pet food industry. Her write up, is well worth the read. As it is more
than
just nutrition. Unless I hear back from the KHA board on a better article,

You can google as easily as I can. :-)

I'll take her word for it, and like I said, an owner can feed their fish,
dog, cat whatever they want, IMHO. I just don't think it is prudent to be
telling other people who ask, "What is best?" To go in that direction.

Your experience, fine, just expect it to be rebuttal and don't take it
personally. ~ jan
==================
Please add the message you're replying to, so people can know who you're
addressing. This reply is showing under your own message above in my
newsreader.

Thanks
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:52:08 -0600, Tristin
wrote:



No comment! IMHO it falls under erroneous and unsubstantiated
informaiton.

What does? What Sandy wrote? If so, prove her wrong. ~ jan
===================
I don't think anyone can prove her right or wrong. What works for one person
may not work too well for another under different conditions of pond size,
climate.... etc.

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"Gill Passman" wrote in message
...

Ah, so there is no misunderstanding here at all....now I have absolutely
no issue with feeding my kids KFC or a nice big mac from time to
time....sure doesn't do them any harm...

How can you know that? You can't know if a handful of cat chow will harm a
koi either.

...but would do a hell of a lot
of harm if that was their staple diet....they would be plump and fat and
look the picture of health

Plump and fat is not the picture of health. It's picture of over eating and
lack of exercise.

when compared to the malnourished kids of the
early 20th century....but in reality they would not be healthy as it is
not a diet suited to their well-being.....

Exactly. They should be eating only fresh fruits, veggies and meat. They
should be in good flesh but not "plump" or fat.

Now, I'm brought to mind of a certain health check I got.....given before
the blood tests and the evidence where I got condemned as being a no
hoper - it is tick the boxes mentality.....do I eat fried food (yes
sometimes),

Worse then feeding koi a slice of bread!!!!

do I drink alcohol (well yes I do),

You drink POISON and worry what someone is feeding their koi??????? LOL!!
:-D

do I smoke (well yes, that is one I want to stop),

I rest my case. SNIP! ;-)

--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:26:20 -0600, Tristin
wrote:

Dunno where the area of not understanding lies,

You attached it to my comment that said nothing about cat food, and you
didn't clarify, so one could only assume you were talking about my
comments
regarding Sandy. :-)

Sandy made no mention of *why* those feeds were unsuitable for koi and
goldfish. And there is no mention of controlled studies done by her
regarding the expensive feeds versus the others, or how many years she ran
said tests.

I just do not agree
that feeding of koi or goldies catfish or cat food is prudent....I
class it as erroneous info...and a practice touted by folks that have
no regard forthe health and longevity of their fish......

I'm in total agreement with that statement.

Where is the research to back that up?

Hell I know lots of kids that thought a coca cola and bag of potatoe
chips was the average american meal and a big mac and french fries was
something that you endulged your self on for a Sunday "cooked meal out
on the town " with......
Sure those kids looked fine and healty too......nice and fat and plump
but no telling what else all that fat and plumpness was hding in rthe
way of health problems.

Yup, even buff, thin people can have clogged arteries from that diet. Like
that commercial where the high cholesterol number is chasing the snow
skier
down the mountain. ~ jan


I'll wait until I see the research, who did the research, how many years it
ran, what climate was involved, the age of the fish, who paid for it and
which brands of feed were used in these supposed long running trials. The
pictures of the autopsies should also be interesting.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll free pond and fish Forum:
http://www.karlsforums.com/forums/fo...ay.php?fid=104
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"~ jan" wrote in message
...
Since this has traveled on to other pet foods... and the evils of the pet
food industry. beg

The grocery store I frequent has those bulk food bins, where you fill your
bag to the amount you want and pay/lb. Interestingly enough, if I got to
the Hardware store or WW and buy squirrel feed, a mix of corn, peanuts and
sunflowers it will cost me more per lb. Yet at the grocers I can buy
people
grade peanuts and (hulled) sunflower seeds cheaper. I'm not about spending
more, spending more isn't what it is about. It is reading the label and
using some common sense. ~ jan
========================
I'm awaiting the research information. I think others may also like to know
more about this research and especially who funded it and which brands of
feed were used.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~ }(((((o

"~ jan" wrote in message
I met Sandy, I respect her knowledge, I know she doesn't work for the
pet food industry. Her write up, is well worth the read. As it is more
than just nutrition. Unless I hear back from the KHA board on a better article,

You can google as easily as I can. :-)

I'll take her word for it, and like I said, an owner can feed their fish,
dog, cat whatever they want, IMHO. I just don't think it is prudent to be
telling other people who ask, "What is best?" To go in that direction.

Your experience, fine, just expect it to be rebuttal and don't take it
personally. ~ jan
==================
On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:35:12 -0600, "Reel McKoi" wrote:

Please add the message you're replying to, so people can know who you're
addressing. This reply is showing under your own message above in my
newsreader.

I did it like that because it wasn't addressed to anyone in particular.
~ jan

Jan,

Thanks for pursuing the article. Lots of good stuff in it.

She is very clear about not liking trout and catfish food. I am sorry
she does not discuss the deficiencies of it any further. I wonder if
they are they as simple as lacking vitamin C or bigger in the
composition of the food.

I don't know that I will move to more expensive food, but I have a
clear vet statement about not liking catfish food.

Now I need to find a supplier like the one that Roy has for cheap koi
food.

Jim

Hi, Ingrid,

I haven't talked to you for a long time. Nice to see your post.

Jim

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:37:11 -0600, "Reel McKoi" wrote:

What does? What Sandy wrote? If so, prove her wrong. ~ jan
===================
I don't think anyone can prove her right or wrong. What works for one person
may not work too well for another under different conditions of pond size,
climate.... etc.

Why would a fish vet make something up, why would she put herself, her
professional reputation out there, by writing something erroneous? She has
more knowledge, personal & educational then all of us combine and no
agenda, other than to give instruction on what is best for koi.

In this case, it has nothing to do with what works for one may not work
well for another. That's always a given on how well one follows instruction
or how much common sense an individual has. It doesn't mean the science is
flawed, just the experimenter. ~ jan

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:48:01 -0600, "Reel McKoi"
wrote:

Where is the research to back that up?

Like I said, you can google probably better than I. Go look for it. Sandy's
write up is good enough for me.

I'll wait until I see the research, who did the research, how many years it
ran, what climate was involved, the age of the fish, who paid for it and
which brands of feed were used in these supposed long running trials. The
pictures of the autopsies should also be interesting.

Like I said, prove her wrong. ~ jan

Jan,

I took your suggestion of Googling. I tried 'koi catfish food'

Interesting results:

-http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/FishHealth/Fattening.html

-http://www.arborman.com/fishfood.htm

-http://www.lonestarkoi.com/Articles/vitamins.html

These 3 seem the best to me. They do spell out their details. Not
research, but evidently knowledgable. Should help our discussion.

Jim

http://www.ponddoc.com/WhatsUpDoc/Fi...Fattening.html

http://www.arborman.com/fishfood.htm

http://www.lonestarkoi.com/Articles/vitamins.html

These 3 seem the best to me. They do spell out their details. Not
research, but evidently knowledgable. Should help our discussion.
Jim

Thanks Jim, you're a far more better googler than I. :-) ~ jan