Wouldn't it be better to have your deep portion at one side (opposite
the water entry) so that it would be easier to reach for cleaning? You
could scoop out or vacuum the debris, or create a separate drain that
could be opened to flush out the debris (to a plant bed?)
--
Kathy B, zookeeper (OR)
3500gal pond, and thinking
of adding a VF this spring

Glenn S. wrote:
I'm planning a vegie filter (VF) for my front yard ponds this spring also
( http://ICanHelp56.homestead.com/index.html ) and was originally planning a
foot deep 'box' with bare roots plants (hyacinth, water lettuce, etc) and
water entry on one end and exit on the other. However, after reading a
portion of your post, I'm reconsidering one aspect of my design. I like
your idea of having 'a slight slant to the middle to collect debris'. I
think my design will now be 12" on the ends and 15" in the center.

Awesome! Thanks!

"Bonnie Espenshade" wrote in message
...
BenignVanilla wrote:
"Nedra" wrote in message
hlink.net...

I would go 18 inches, BV. That is the depth the books
on Veggie Filters claim is best.


Nedra, do they say why 18?

I am battled two design right now. One that has the filter about 12
inches
deep, flat bottom, with a slight slant to the middle to collect debris
and
make cleaning easier. I am also thinking of a having a more sculpted
bottom,
that includes different depth areas, hoping that may help in settlement.

Right now, the 12 inch deep across the board is winning. Seems the most
simple. I could be swayed to 18 though if I would gain some benefit. I
just
want to keep it shallow enough that I can get in there and clean it
easily.

BV.



Hi BV,

I just checked with article written by Richard Schuck, who
came up with the 10% Solution Natural Filter. He suggests
12" to 18" but doesn't say why.

His equation:
Surface Area of NF = 10% of Surface Area of POND

Water Flow/hr = 1/2 to 1/4 of POND Volume

Depth of NF = 10" - 12"

--
Bonnie
NJ

"Bonnie Espenshade" wrote in message
snip
For proper filtration, I suggest you float them bareroot -
no pots. If you choose the proper plants, the water will
soon be completely covered.

Just toss 'em in? How do you keep them upright? I have used watercress in an
aquarium, but the leaves don't stay above the surface very well...of course
my fish don't help.

How do you do it in your pond? No pots at all in the VF?

BV.

BenignVanilla wrote:
"Bonnie Espenshade" wrote in message
snip

For proper filtration, I suggest you float them bareroot -
no pots. If you choose the proper plants, the water will
soon be completely covered.


Just toss 'em in? How do you keep them upright? I have used watercress in an
aquarium, but the leaves don't stay above the surface very well...of course
my fish don't help.

How do you do it in your pond? No pots at all in the VF?

BV.



One way is to float a light grid (it looks like and egg
crate) available at Home Depot, etc. You simply stick the
plants into the openings. Before you know it the egg crate
is no longer visible. This works great for water cress.
For water celery, I simply float the plant - it will soon
take off and the roots go down and the plant grows up - magic.
Some other types of plants do need something to hold them in
place - slotted baskets with rocks to anchor the plant. Not
to many, you want more roots filling the space not rocks.
--
Bonnie
NJ

One reason for a deeper VF would be (assuming a bog design with an actual
soil bed), to allow anaerobic conditions to occur in the deeper soil layers,
which allows for the reduction of nitrates back to nitrogen, which is more
efficiently utilized by all the plants.
Plants can use nitrates, but they require more energy to do so, and the
process is far less efficient than using (reduced) nitrogen.
Use of deep soil, in the bog approach, is referred to as a "nitrate sump".
You can watch the nitrate levels in the pond go down resulting in less algae
issues.
If you are strictly doing a higher water flow VF, without any significant
depth of soil, you really would only need you VF deep enough to accommodate
the root system. (ie 6 inches). Too deep would impede the flow of oxygenated
water, and you could get anaerobic conditions in the deeper layers of the
water as well, though I doubt nitrate reduction would occur anywhere near as
well as in the bog model with deeper soil.
I went with the bog model, which has worked well, but my soil depth is only
about 12 inches. Nitrates went down, after the 3rd year when the plants were
well established.
Happy ponding,
Greg


"John Rutz" wrote in message
...


Paul in Redland wrote:
One ft should be fine. Are you putting your plants in pots?
Paul




mine varies from 1 ft to 18 in due to root size of some plants

--
John Rutz

I'm not Porg am not am not am so
see my pond at:
http://www.fuerjefe.com

Gregory Young wrote:

I went with the bog model, which has worked well, but my soil depth is only
about 12 inches. Nitrates went down, after the 3rd year when the plants were
well established.
Happy ponding,
Greg


Do you ever have to clean this type VF and if so how?
--
Bonnie
NJ

get really holey pots. wrap polyester batting around the plant to hold it up. I
also have pond pots, they have lots of slits in them, I screw that to the side of my
filter and put plants like water cress in there, the big plants like cyperus are
stuck into the water between the pots which hold them up. for filtering they really
should not be in soil in a pot. exceptions are plants like feather or water celery
where it is in soil but the plant sprawls and roots outside the pot. Ingrid

what is good is having a mechanical gross filter where the water dumps, then
something forces the water to go up and over with a drain like you mention there.
for mechanical gross filter I think the brushes that hang down are great. talk about
easy to clean, lift em out and thwock em once and they are clean. I found where my
outdoor filter bends I have a deposit of silt. but it is just so easy to clean with
a wet dry vac in fall as I bring the plants into the basement, I guess it isnt that
important. Ingrid

zookeeper wrote:

Wouldn't it be better to have your deep portion at one side (opposite
the water entry) so that it would be easier to reach for cleaning? You
could scoop out or vacuum the debris, or create a separate drain that
could be opened to flush out the debris (to a plant bed?)

free nitrogen (the gas) is not available for use by plants. nitrogen fixing bacteria
(like those found in nodules of clover, etc.) must fix the nitrogen to ammonia. that
is an anaerobic process. http://www.backyardnature.net/econitro.htm
Ingrid

One reason for a deeper VF would be (assuming a bog design with an actual
soil bed), to allow anaerobic conditions to occur in the deeper soil layers,
which allows for the reduction of nitrates back to nitrogen, which is more
efficiently utilized by all the plants.

wrote:
get really holey pots. wrap polyester batting around the plant to hold it up. I
also have pond pots, they have lots of slits in them, I screw that to the side of my
filter and put plants like water cress in there, the big plants like cyperus are
stuck into the water between the pots which hold them up. for filtering they really
should not be in soil in a pot. exceptions are plants like feather or water celery
where it is in soil but the plant sprawls and roots outside the pot. Ingrid



thats what Im using with large golfball rock, but I was watching a
English gardening show and they were puting the plants in burlap with a
litle top soil, the builder stated that after a while the plants would
root in the gunk that builds up on the bottom.

--
John Rutz

I'm not Porg am not am not am so
see my pond at:
http://www.fuerjefe.com

eh... takes to long, too much fiddling around. Ingrid

John Rutz wrote:
ats what Im using with large golfball rock, but I was watching a
English gardening show and they were puting the plants in burlap with a
litle top soil, the builder stated that after a while the plants would
root in the gunk that builds up on the bottom.

Hi Bonnie:
No, I haven't, as I don't want to disturb the anaerobic layer which is
working quite well.
Some folks when they design bogs actually cut slits in the bottom liner, to
allow water to percolate down through the lower layers and back into the
soil.
I didn't want to do that, as with our frosts I was concerned the slits could
become major tears.
I already do routine water changes, and didn't want that to become too
excessive!
Happy ponding,
Greg

--


"Bonnie Espenshade" wrote in message
...
Gregory Young wrote:

I went with the bog model, which has worked well, but my soil depth is
only
about 12 inches. Nitrates went down, after the 3rd year when the plants
were
well established.
Happy ponding,
Greg


Do you ever have to clean this type VF and if so how?
--
Bonnie
NJ

I was not referring to nitrogen "gas".
Folks:
There is a very understandable review of how aquatic plants actually use
utilize nitrogen, which you may like to read.
It shows how "nitrates" are actually utilized by aquatic plants.
When I get back from Albany Tuesday, I'll look it up, and post it to this
thread.
Happy ponding all,
Greg


wrote in message
...
free nitrogen (the gas) is not available for use by plants. nitrogen
fixing bacteria
(like those found in nodules of clover, etc.) must fix the nitrogen to
ammonia. that
is an anaerobic process. http://www.backyardnature.net/econitro.htm
Ingrid

One reason for a deeper VF would be (assuming a bog design with an actual
soil bed), to allow anaerobic conditions to occur in the deeper soil
layers,
which allows for the reduction of nitrates back to nitrogen, which is
more
efficiently utilized by all the plants.

As most of you know, my only filters are vegetable filters. They are about 18
inches deep, and are planted with iris in milk crates and lava rock. In the
summer I float lettuce and hyacinths in the filters and the ponds. One of the
filters is going on 7 years now. It has only been cleaned about 2 times I
think. By the way the koi really grew this winter, and the largest would be
about 30 inches I think.....Glad to be back.. Jerri

http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

First off, WB Jerri!!
I hope all is well with you now. (I was informed of what happened). Spring
is coming, and we'll get you back in shape for ponding!
Folks:
Couldn't find the exact article I had in mind in my files, but did find nice
layperson review of how water plants actually utilize nitrogen.
It was published in Tropical fish hobbyist, November 2000, pages 34 - 48, by
Diana Walstad.
She references several articles, the most recent of which was by Dortch
entitled "The interaction between ammonium and nitrate uptake in
phytoplankton". Good stuff!
The upshot is based on several studies it has been shown that aquatic plants
do not take up nitrates well, but rather need to take up a reduced form of
nitrogen, in the form of ammonium. (not ammonia the gas, nor the nitrogen
gas others referred to).
To quote from her article:
"Plants, algae, and all other photosynthesizing organisms use the nitrogen
from ammonia - not nitrates - to produce their proteins. If the plant takes
up the nitrate, it must first be converted to ammonium in an
energy-requiring process called "nitrate reduction"."
Furthermore she goes on to say: "Thus if nitrifying bacteria in biological
filters convert all available ammonium to nitrates, plants will be forced -
at great expense - (83Kcal/mol actually.. addition from Greg) to convert
all the nitrates back to ammonium."
Enough quoted.. there is ton's more info in the article..
Happy ponding,
Greg


"Jerrispond" wrote in message
...
As most of you know, my only filters are vegetable filters. They are
about 18
inches deep, and are planted with iris in milk crates and lava rock. In
the
summer I float lettuce and hyacinths in the filters and the ponds. One of
the
filters is going on 7 years now. It has only been cleaned about 2 times I
think. By the way the koi really grew this winter, and the largest would
be
about 30 inches I think.....Glad to be back.. Jerri


http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond