I dont know .... the deer hunters in Wisconsin know about the "mad deer" disease in
the deer they are shooting and eating.. doesnt stop em at all. Ingrid

"T" wrote:

Ah well, its like the cow in Canada.. When everyone went nuts to avoid
Canadian Beef, it was barely noted that cow originally came from a US
producer, most likely where it originally contracted the BSE... How ironic
is it when the shoe is on the other foot.??.. I suspect the beef market in
the US is going to be in some trouble for the next year or so.

Timmer...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

but it doesnt appear that BSE can be transmitted vertically to young... or thru milk.
Or are they saying there is evidence of that now? Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
As far as head in the manure, I sure hope they're paying attention to the
rancher who may have to kill all 400 calves because he didn't tag them.
Seems one of Daisy's offspring is among them, but they don't know which
one.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

it is all "bottom line". they arent allowed to feed recycled meat byproducts to
animals going into the human food chain, but they lobbied to allow "downers" or lame
cattle into the human food chain.... and that is where this problem started.
Ingrid

"Janet" wrote:
I am of the opinion that the US Cattlemens Assoc doesn't give a rat's ass
for the little guy with a herd of a couple dozen grazing his back 20. They
have planted themselves firmly in the pockets of the big 3 packers that
control everything....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

I have not actually done research on prions, altho I am a virologist and the chairman
of the department where I went to school did do research on prions, using hamsters as
a model system. I might say this guy studied every know agent that causes brains to
go to mush and had freezers full of the stuff and infected brains and frankly his
lab scared me more than down a floor where they were studying the bacteria cause
toxic shock syndrome and highly pathogenic strep (my DH). or the floor below
studying the virus that causes genital warts (and the whole lab was infected after a
centrifuge tube broke). I digress.
two things affect infectivity. host adaptation and dose. when he started shooting
the hamsters up with prions from another species the hamsters were showing disease
near the end of their life. had to use a high dose as well. when the brains of the
hamsters were homogenized and used to infect other hamsters the dose of prion needed
to infect went way down and the time from infection to disease got shorter. this is
called passaging and each passage had a reduction in amount and time to symptom.
There is a specific warning about "offal" which includes intestines. intestines also
includes lymphatic tissues sites of immune system cells called Peyers patches.
lymphatic tissue is suspect including the spleen, another large site of immune cells.

every time animals take a dump cells of the intestines are scraped off with the crap.
one reason people can fingerprint individual animals from their dung or spoor.
rabbits are rather inefficient and even my dogs would go for rabbit poop in a big
way. I would be very interested in what the other group has to say about CWD
transmission in deer. I know the game farms have admitted feeding meat/bone meal to
game animals and losing them over fences.
Here in Wisconsin there was a guy up north that was a big hunter, had these huge
dinner parties with lots of wild game of all kinds. He has died of CJD and I have
heard so have some of his guests. So eating a lot of wild game it is more likely to
get an infected animal AND get a big enough dose to cause disease.
Yes, there sure are all kinds of prion diseases. Ingrid


(Offbreed) wrote:
CWD in deer: One of the posters in misc.rural stated that she had been
told by her vet that chronic wasting desease was carried by rabbits
and deer got it by eating rabbit dung. (That seems an odd thing for
deer to eat, and raises the question as to how deer catch it from
other deer.) She was going to get back to the group on monday. I was
not able to find anything on the net about that link.

(There's many different prion diseases, and if this is the same one
that caused a few human deaths, then how come there have not been a
lot more human deaths? Lots of wild rabbits get eaten every year.)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

They want to test the calf to prove it doesn't travel, is my impression.
~ jan

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 04:54:00 GMT, wrote:

but it doesnt appear that BSE can be transmitted vertically to young... or thru milk.
Or are they saying there is evidence of that now? Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
As far as head in the manure, I sure hope they're paying attention to the
rancher who may have to kill all 400 calves because he didn't tag them.
Seems one of Daisy's offspring is among them, but they don't know which
one.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

See my ponds thru the seasons and/or my filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Defrosted~
Tri-Cities, WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

From "Janet":
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...tory/National/
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/07/03/madcow_us030703
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...nal/TopStories

Wow, thanks Janet. Course they don't really say they knew much either. From
the last article, "While it is more likely the cow contracted BSE from a
Canadian source" I add, the rest of the article bascially said, there was
only a 5% chance it came from the US, and if so, was given feed prior to
the 1997 ban. Basically no evidence to claim it absolutely came from the
US.

The last article that I read on this after some snooping around the net
reports that the Canadian AG dept at the end of their extensive
investigation could only say with 95% certainty that the cow that tested
positive was Canadian born. They felt it was highly likely that the cow in
question came into Canada ( most likely as a fetus)during the mass
importation of the 25,000 head of pregnant females. It is now known that
those females were fed feed in the US that contained animal proteins...

So you're saying you got the impression from the articles it was the fetus
that picked up BSE from the mother eating infected feed? The fetus and
eventually calf/cow was the one they found infected? I must be
misunderstanding, because Canada only found 1 BSE cow, if the calf had it,
so would have the mother. Unless the calf was fed contaminated feed, which
it would have gotten in Canada if born there from the PG US cow. ???

I don't think they've yet to prove it transfers from cow to calf, my
understanding, so far, is they're fairly sure it does not. Hopefully we'll
should find something out regarding that, when they track down "Daisy's"
offspring and test them, since she obviously had BSE before birthing them.
In the meantime, I wish they'd find out where those other 73 Holstein cows
are. hurrumpt

Oh well.... just read in the paper today that even though we have banned
these cow parts as cattle feed, we still feed it to other livestock and
since all this feed is usually made in the same warehouses, a little
sloppiness and we end up with cattle eating cow brains. Honestly, I sure
hope they fix this. I think I'm going to go organic until than. ~ jan

wrote:

I dont know .... the deer hunters in Wisconsin know about the "mad deer" disease in
the deer they are shooting and eating.. doesnt stop em at all. Ingrid

Yeah, but don't they have to send the heads in for analysis?

Xref: kermit rec.ponds:136884

Good point, which is why I mainly consume poultry, as I find red meat to be
very hard on my digestive system IE my case of diverticulitus may have been
caused by a staple high in red meats, but also from not eating enough fibers
as well.

Tim...
"john rutz" wrote in message
...


Ka30P wrote:
Clyde asked

The Question I have is why only one cow in the Middle of
Washington State?


Latest word is the cow came from Canada and there will be more. (NOT
to get in the middle of the strains of "Blame Canada" being of
Canadian birth mineself, but that is what we are hearing now)


ka30p http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html
an my question is how long have we been eating cows like this without
indident till some test tube type named it?

John Rutz
( who wont eat anything that doesnt have four legs and horns)

See Below...
"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
From "Janet":

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...coww0703/BNSto
ry/National/
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/07/03/madcow_us030703

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...C/20030704/UCO
WWN/TPNational/TopStories

Wow, thanks Janet. Course they don't really say they knew much either.
From
the last article, "While it is more likely the cow contracted BSE from a
Canadian source" I add, the rest of the article bascially said, there was
only a 5% chance it came from the US, and if so, was given feed prior to
the 1997 ban. Basically no evidence to claim it absolutely came from the
US.

Exactly Jan, as that mass importation of the 25,000 head took place just
under the wire as to avoid the cattle health registry that was being put
into place. Unfortunately those 25,000 head no longer show their US origins
in the records, hence they cannot be sure. The way the registry works is
that anything that was here and on your farm at the beginning of the program
was tagged as originating at your farm. If a rancher didn't keep their own
records there would be no way to track back from there.

The last article that I read on this after some snooping around the net
reports that the Canadian AG dept at the end of their extensive
investigation could only say with 95% certainty that the cow that tested
positive was Canadian born. They felt it was highly likely that the cow
in
question came into Canada ( most likely as a fetus)during the mass
importation of the 25,000 head of pregnant females. It is now known that
those females were fed feed in the US that contained animal proteins...

So you're saying you got the impression from the articles it was the fetus
that picked up BSE from the mother eating infected feed? The fetus and
eventually calf/cow was the one they found infected? I must be
misunderstanding, because Canada only found 1 BSE cow, if the calf had it,
so would have the mother. Unless the calf was fed contaminated feed, which
it would have gotten in Canada if born there from the PG US cow. ???


IIRC Jan the mother of the cow that tested positive here was previously
deceased so could not be tested. They are doing extensive research on this
now Jan both here and in the UK. Theoretically BSE could pass from mother to
calf in the uterus. Given the fact that there can be such a long incubation
period before symptoms appear. These are just a few of the theories that are
currently be worked on. Personally I find it rather scarey that they don't
know more about BSE.


I don't think they've yet to prove it transfers from cow to calf, my
understanding, so far, is they're fairly sure it does not. Hopefully we'll
should find something out regarding that, when they track down "Daisy's"
offspring and test them, since she obviously had BSE before birthing them.
In the meantime, I wish they'd find out where those other 73 Holstein cows
are. hurrumpt

Oh well.... just read in the paper today that even though we have banned
these cow parts as cattle feed, we still feed it to other livestock and
since all this feed is usually made in the same warehouses, a little
sloppiness and we end up with cattle eating cow brains. Honestly, I sure
hope they fix this. I think I'm going to go organic until than. ~ jan

Isn't this why we see the e-coli recalls in ground beef as well ?? ;o) I
think what burns my butt is that even though the ban involving feed went
into affect in 1997 I read all the time ranchers shouting the fact they
still do it! One in particular over in misc.rural very publically states
that her husband was feeding the banned animal proteins right up until last
year! Now they are crapping their pants! Jan please don't get me going on
organic... read the USDA definitions of what can legally carry the organic
label, it might shock you... )
Janet

Exactly Ingrid! The US Cattlemens Assoc spends millions lobbying for what
will be most profitable for the big 3 packers that control the industry.
They couldn't give a rat's ass for the actual rancher or what ends up on
your plate. I have noticed though that they have been unusually quiet
through all this though...
Janet

wrote in message
...
it is all "bottom line". they arent allowed to feed recycled meat
byproducts to
animals going into the human food chain, but they lobbied to allow
"downers" or lame
cattle into the human food chain.... and that is where this problem
started.
Ingrid

"Janet" wrote:
I am of the opinion that the US Cattlemens Assoc doesn't give a rat's
ass
for the little guy with a herd of a couple dozen grazing his back 20.
They
have planted themselves firmly in the pockets of the big 3 packers that
control everything....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Janet wrote:
Personally I find it rather scarey that they don't
know more about BSE.

Ditto that, we need to get some celeb to champion research, unfortunately
aren't they all vegans? ;o)

Isn't this why we see the e-coli recalls in ground beef as well ?? ;o)

At least we can kill this by cooking it to death.

Jan please don't get me going on
organic... read the USDA definitions of what can legally carry the organic
label, it might shock you... )

I already know, if you're talking veggies and fruit, it's all a bunch of
hype that organic grown veggies and fruits are better/safer. They have
stated in the papers though that organic beef is not fed animal proteins.
Have you heard something different regarding organic meats? Sorry for
making you go on. ;o) ~ jan

Oh the local CA guys were on our news last night, pointing out that it was
a DAIRY cow and now one of their BEEF cows!!!

I'm like, SO! If the same equipment is used once the infected parts mess
those up, your Angus is suspect in my eyes too. That's why I want to know
where those other 73 Dairy cows are. The USCA can just thank their lucky
stars it was a Dairy cow, but they for sure better take this as a major
wake up call to ID them doggies. ~ jan


On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 13:08:30 -0500, "Janet" wrote:

Exactly Ingrid! The US Cattlemens Assoc spends millions lobbying for what
will be most profitable for the big 3 packers that control the industry.
They couldn't give a rat's ass for the actual rancher or what ends up on
your plate. I have noticed though that they have been unusually quiet
through all this though...
Janet

wrote in message
...
it is all "bottom line". they arent allowed to feed recycled meat
byproducts to
animals going into the human food chain, but they lobbied to allow
"downers" or lame
cattle into the human food chain.... and that is where this problem
started.
Ingrid

"Janet" wrote:
I am of the opinion that the US Cattlemens Assoc doesn't give a rat's
ass
for the little guy with a herd of a couple dozen grazing his back 20.
They
have planted themselves firmly in the pockets of the big 3 packers that
control everything....


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:
Personally I find it rather scarey that they don't
know more about BSE.

Ditto that, we need to get some celeb to champion research, unfortunately
aren't they all vegans? ;o)

Isn't this why we see the e-coli recalls in ground beef as well ?? ;o)

At least we can kill this by cooking it to death.

Jan please don't get me going on
organic... read the USDA definitions of what can legally carry the
organic
label, it might shock you... )

I already know, if you're talking veggies and fruit, it's all a bunch of
hype that organic grown veggies and fruits are better/safer. They have
stated in the papers though that organic beef is not fed animal proteins.
Have you heard something different regarding organic meats? Sorry for
making you go on. ;o) ~ jan

Jan technically no cattle can and has been fed animal protein based feeds
since 1997. The USDA regs concerning what it takes to label beef (or any
meat) as "organic" are about the same as for fruit and veggies, nothing more
than hype IMO. All the regs do is state the obvious. It does not mean that
the animal has never had antibiotics but it does limit the use of growth
hormones(doesn't ban them though). It also does not mean that the animal has
only been grass fed or been fed "organic" feeds from day 1.Basically, from
experience raising beef cattle, the vast majority would qualify to use the
"organic" label.... )
Janet

"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Janet wrote:
Personally I find it rather scarey that they don't
know more about BSE.

Ditto that, we need to get some celeb to champion research, unfortunately
aren't they all vegans? ;o)

Isn't this why we see the e-coli recalls in ground beef as well ?? ;o)

At least we can kill this by cooking it to death.

Jan please don't get me going on
organic... read the USDA definitions of what can legally carry the
organic
label, it might shock you... )

I already know, if you're talking veggies and fruit, it's all a bunch of
hype that organic grown veggies and fruits are better/safer. They have
stated in the papers though that organic beef is not fed animal proteins.
Have you heard something different regarding organic meats? Sorry for
making you go on. ;o) ~ jan

Jan technically no cattle can and has been fed animal protein based feeds
since 1997. The USDA regs concerning what it takes to label beef (or any
meat) as "organic" are about the same as for fruit and veggies, nothing more
than hype IMO. All the regs do is state the obvious. It does not mean that
the animal has never had antibiotics but it does limit the use of growth
hormones(doesn't ban them though). It also does not mean that the animal has
only been grass fed or been fed "organic" feeds from day 1.Basically, from
experience raising beef cattle, the vast majority would qualify to use the
"organic" label.... )
Janet

blood can transmit prions, so during birth there is that possibility as the placenta
separates. however, calves dont nurse long on dairy cows, and they are saying this
cow was born before the ban. still no evidence it is transmitted in milk. Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
So you're saying you got the impression from the articles it was the fetus
that picked up BSE from the mother eating infected feed? The fetus and
eventually calf/cow was the one they found infected? I must be
misunderstanding, because Canada only found 1 BSE cow, if the calf had it,
so would have the mother. Unless the calf was fed contaminated feed, which
it would have gotten in Canada if born there from the PG US cow. ???


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.