I was just reading an article that was stating all the loopholes the animal
protein ban in feed. Calves are routinely fed milk replacer that is made
from cattle blood here
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...industryatrisk
I didn't even know that was available! We only ever fed out one calf and it
was with a soy based milk replacer. \ Ingrid you are full of all kind of
interesting tidbits aren't you! D
Janet

wrote in message
...
blood can transmit prions, so during birth there is that possibility as
the placenta
separates. however, calves dont nurse long on dairy cows, and they are
saying this
cow was born before the ban. still no evidence it is transmitted in milk.
Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
So you're saying you got the impression from the articles it was the
fetus
that picked up BSE from the mother eating infected feed? The fetus and
eventually calf/cow was the one they found infected? I must be
misunderstanding, because Canada only found 1 BSE cow, if the calf had
it,
so would have the mother. Unless the calf was fed contaminated feed,
which
it would have gotten in Canada if born there from the PG US cow. ???


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Jan,

It is so interesting that you said what Ingrid said is good enough for you.
If you would have read the article at the URL you would have seen that there
is no indication that it is transferable to offspring. The whole article
was filled with maybes and possibilities and supposition and very little
fact, except, of course, the part where hamsters that had MCD injected in
their brains had it showed up in their tongues.

What was it that P.T Barnum said, "....!?" ;-)

Tom L.L.




"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Well Janet, you aren't gonna appreciate the latest news. They're
(newspaper) saying since they've (USDA, I assume) figured out this
"Holstein" cow came out of Canada that we can still consider the US
disease
free. That importing nations should (trust in us) open their borders to
our
beef. IMO, if I was an import nation I'd be saying, "I don't think so,
bub!" I want to know where those 73 other cows are (that came in with
Daisy) that they've yet to track down! I'm not eating any beef till I
know,
and I want them all tested to see if Daisy was (most likely) a singular
incident (as they are also claiming).

As far as head in the manure, I sure hope they're paying attention to the
rancher who may have to kill all 400 calves because he didn't tag them.
Seems one of Daisy's offspring is among them, but they don't know which
one. I can't imagine running a business like that, not knowing where your
critters come from. Thank goodness our government will compensate these
people, since it is they who make and decide on the rules. Time to kick
the
Cattlemen's ASSociation in the rump roast if you ask me. ~ jan
Zone 7a

This is exactly our point up here in Canada Jan.... WHen it happened to
us
the US AG dept was all over it spouting the "risks". Now that it's on US
soil its nothing to worry about. As for your microchip comment you don't
know how true that is!!! Here in Canada a cattle health registry was
formed
in response to 2 things.The BSE and H&M outbreak in Britain and the EU
demanded that any country that wanted to export to the EU must have one
in
place. What this means that in our case here in Canada when an animal
leaves
its farm of origin it must be tagged with a registry tag. The tags can
only
be bought from authorized dealers and they contain a barcode. When the
tag
is put on an animal a stack of paperwork must be filled out with a
history
on the animal. That tag stays with the animal right to the packer. If
there
is a problem it can quickly and accurately be traced through the system.
No
animal can move through an auction or sale without a tag.
Now the US does not have any such program in place. This is due to the
lobbying of the US Cattlemens Assoc. They have been stalling this for at
least 5 years, if not longer. The EU keeps giving the US an extension
based
on the bogus word of the Cattlemens Assoc saying that they are "working"
on
it. The Canadian program has offered to go down to the US, offered it's
research into tag life, offered it's tracking software... Even gone so
far
as to offer to set the damn program up from start to finish and the US
Cattlemen have refused! Why?? Stubborness (sp?) is my best bet. They are
holding on to a century old way of thinking that they know what's best
for
the industry, all the while burying their collective heads in the manure
pile...
Janet

There is something else that needs to be considered in this entire scenario.
This disease, unless you are injecting infected prions in to the animal's
brain, takes a long time to manifest itself and have any outward signs that
anything is going wrong inside the animal. It can be years before you can
even suspect that the animal is sick with this problem.

Tom L.L.
"T" wrote in message
ink.net...
Good point, which is why I mainly consume poultry, as I find red meat to
be
very hard on my digestive system IE my case of diverticulitus may have
been
caused by a staple high in red meats, but also from not eating enough
fibers
as well.

Tim...
"john rutz" wrote in message
...


Ka30P wrote:
Clyde asked

The Question I have is why only one cow in the Middle of
Washington State?


Latest word is the cow came from Canada and there will be more. (NOT
to get in the middle of the strains of "Blame Canada" being of
Canadian birth mineself, but that is what we are hearing now)


ka30p http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html
an my question is how long have we been eating cows like this without
indident till some test tube type named it?

John Rutz
( who wont eat anything that doesnt have four legs and horns)

I now stand corrected, my apologies..

Tim


"Janet" wrote in message
...
Jan I've pulled up a couple os stories that ran but the news service
stories
don't seem to be archived. Here's the links..

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...oww0703/BNStor
y/National/
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/07/03/madcow_us030703

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../20030704/UCOW
WN/TPNational/TopStories
The last article that I read on this after some snooping around the net
reports that the Canadian AG dept at the end of their extensive
investigation could only say with 95% certainty that the cow that tested
positive was Canadian born. They felt it was highly likely that the cow in
question came into Canada ( most likely as a fetus)during the mass
importation of the 25,000 head of pregnant females. It is now known that
those females were fed feed in the US that contained animal proteins...
Janet


"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Tim Wrote:
far as the US being BSE free, people must remeber the one that was
found
in
Canada originated from the US which was proven beyond a shadow of
doubt...
But then again, it doesn't happen here in the US of A does it??

Truth be told, I can't remember that, probably because it never got to
our
newspapers, ya think? Wonder who held that news up? If it did, it
probably
said, the cow got it (BSE) after it entered Canada. There isn't a story
on-line regarding that somewhere is there? I'd like to send it to my
local
paper. ~ jan


On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 20:47:46 GMT, "T" wrote:

Common sense does not seem to be to common.. You would think to insure
the
integrity of the heard they would leave the tags alone and use another
tag
along side of it... The problem with not knowing where Daisy came from
is
going to be an intresting case ( like I mentioned at the bottom of the
thread ). Not trying to point fingers, but when there is a removal of
the
takes it defianatly upsets the apple cart, making things a lot harder
to
prove and yes, much more expensive to the tax payer in eithier
country..
As
far as the US being BSE free, people must remeber the one that was
found
in
Canada originated from the US which was proven beyond a shadow of
doubt...
But then again, it doesn't happen here in the US of A does it??

Tim..
-
"Janet" wrote in message
.. .
I was just reading that Jan... Up here we are getting that our
Canadian
AG Dept. is not sure that the tag in question belonged to "Daisy".
The
information doesn't match. According to the tag she was supposed to
be
6
but
the US AG dept is saying that she was only 4 or 4 /12 (and standing
by
that
"fact"). DNA testing is now being done to try to verify "Daisy's"
identity.
Now that leaves a real dilemma doesn't it !?! That would mean at
least
2
more of her calves are out there somewhere if she does prove to be 6!
Apparently our media is reporting that it's common practice for tags
to
be
removed (contrary to our law) when cattle cross the border from
Canada
into
the US. This is why the tag is in question. American ranchers and
dairies
remove them to insert their own herd id. Apparently from what our
media
is
reporting that the dairy kept the tags of the imported cattle but
took
them
out and put them back in when either shipping them back to Canada or
sending
to slaughter! O It's looking like he didn't get the right tag back
in
possibly... The problem arises in a case like this and when millions
of
animals a year are moving across the border and back again....

I am of the opinion that the US Cattlemens Assoc doesn't give a
rat's
ass
for the little guy with a herd of a couple dozen grazing his back 20.
They
have planted themselves firmly in the pockets of the big 3 packers
that
control everything.... You'd be surprised Jan and how most ranchers
operate.
Many seem to be firmly planted in running the ranch like
great-grandpappy
did. O They feel if it was good enough for him it's good enough for
YOU
to
eat! Needless to say when one mentions the way beef cattle are moved
to
several farms often in 2 seperate countries over their short lives
(less
than 2 years in most cases) and what that can mean if there is a
disease
outbreak they laugh and say "It ain't gonna happen here"..... I guess
it
did
huh?
Janet


"~ jan JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
Well Janet, you aren't gonna appreciate the latest news. They're
(newspaper) saying since they've (USDA, I assume) figured out this
"Holstein" cow came out of Canada that we can still consider the US
disease
free. That importing nations should (trust in us) open their
borders
to
our
beef. IMO, if I was an import nation I'd be saying, "I don't think
so,
bub!" I want to know where those 73 other cows are (that came in
with
Daisy) that they've yet to track down! I'm not eating any beef till
I
know,
and I want them all tested to see if Daisy was (most likely) a
singular
incident (as they are also claiming).

As far as head in the manure, I sure hope they're paying attention
to
the
rancher who may have to kill all 400 calves because he didn't tag
them.
Seems one of Daisy's offspring is among them, but they don't know
which
one. I can't imagine running a business like that, not knowing
where
your
critters come from. Thank goodness our government will compensate
these
people, since it is they who make and decide on the rules. Time to
kick
the
Cattlemen's ASSociation in the rump roast if you ask me. ~ jan
Zone 7a

This is exactly our point up here in Canada Jan.... WHen it
happened
to
us
the US AG dept was all over it spouting the "risks". Now that it's
on
US
soil its nothing to worry about. As for your microchip comment
you
don't
know how true that is!!! Here in Canada a cattle health registry
was
formed
in response to 2 things.The BSE and H&M outbreak in Britain and
the
EU
demanded that any country that wanted to export to the EU must
have
one
in
place. What this means that in our case here in Canada when an
animal
leaves
its farm of origin it must be tagged with a registry tag. The tags
can
only
be bought from authorized dealers and they contain a barcode. When
the
tag
is put on an animal a stack of paperwork must be filled out with a
history
on the animal. That tag stays with the animal right to the packer.
If
there
is a problem it can quickly and accurately be traced through the
system.
No
animal can move through an auction or sale without a tag.
Now the US does not have any such program in place. This is due
to
the
lobbying of the US Cattlemens Assoc. They have been stalling this
for
at
least 5 years, if not longer. The EU keeps giving the US an
extension
based
on the bogus word of the Cattlemens Assoc saying that they are
"working"
on
it. The Canadian program has offered to go down to the US, offered
it's
research into tag life, offered it's tracking software... Even
gone
so
far
as to offer to set the damn program up from start to finish and
the
US
Cattlemen have refused! Why?? Stubborness (sp?) is my best bet.
They
are
holding on to a century old way of thinking that they know what's
best
for
the industry, all the while burying their collective heads in the
manure
pile...
Janet

This is part of the case Tom.. Also part of the case is leaving the tags
alone instead of the ranchers removing them from the animal.. I don't think
the cows mind having an extra hole pierced in there ears, heck it can't be
no worse than what I see the kids do them selves today... esshh..

Tim


"Tom La Bron" wrote in message
...
There is something else that needs to be considered in this entire
scenario.
This disease, unless you are injecting infected prions in to the animal's
brain, takes a long time to manifest itself and have any outward signs
that
anything is going wrong inside the animal. It can be years before you can
even suspect that the animal is sick with this problem.

Tom L.L.
"T" wrote in message
ink.net...
Good point, which is why I mainly consume poultry, as I find red meat to
be
very hard on my digestive system IE my case of diverticulitus may have
been
caused by a staple high in red meats, but also from not eating enough
fibers
as well.

Tim...
"john rutz" wrote in message
...


Ka30P wrote:
Clyde asked

The Question I have is why only one cow in the Middle of
Washington State?


Latest word is the cow came from Canada and there will be more.
(NOT
to get in the middle of the strains of "Blame Canada" being of
Canadian birth mineself, but that is what we are hearing now)


ka30p http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html
an my question is how long have we been eating cows like this without
indident till some test tube type named it?

John Rutz
( who wont eat anything that doesnt have four legs and horns)

I'm gonna ignore the dig regarding P.T.B. & Suckers. Honestly Tom, you just
can't help yourself from saying something inflamatory, can you? S

Regarding what John said though: "
an my question is how long have we been eating cows like this without
indident till some test tube type named it?
John Rutz

I have to agree with Tom, it isn't the test tube types that created the
problem, the incidents were always there, we just didn't know the cause
and/or how to prevent them. Life was better when we were ignorant? Sorry, I
don't think so John.

One does wonder with the short life span of an Angus, just how safe are we?
~ jan

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 00:02:49 -0600, "Tom La Bron" wrote:

There is something else that needs to be considered in this entire scenario.
This disease, unless you are injecting infected prions in to the animal's
brain, takes a long time to manifest itself and have any outward signs that
anything is going wrong inside the animal. It can be years before you can
even suspect that the animal is sick with this problem.

Tom L.L.
ka30p http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html
( who wont eat anything that doesnt have four legs and horns)

well shit... I didnt know they used blood in milk replacer. My farm experience is
summers on my grandparents farm. but I am sure IF they used it they didnt know what
was in it. Kosher laws are looking better and better. Ingrid

"Janet" wrote:
I was just reading an article that was stating all the loopholes the animal
protein ban in feed. Calves are routinely fed milk replacer that is made
from cattle blood here
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...industryatrisk
I didn't even know that was available! We only ever fed out one calf and it
was with a soy based milk replacer. \ Ingrid you are full of all kind of
interesting tidbits aren't you! D
Janet

wrote in message
...
blood can transmit prions, so during birth there is that possibility as
the placenta
separates. however, calves dont nurse long on dairy cows, and they are
saying this
cow was born before the ban. still no evidence it is transmitted in milk.
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

they dont have too... but IIRC if they do send it in and it is positive, then they
get something like $200. one reason is so many hunters dropped out of hunting last
year. big economic loss for northern Wisconsin. they interview these hunters on TV
and most of em were saying they werent worried about it. so far I DONT think they
have proved (or announced) that CWD is ACTUALLY transmissible to humans. Ingrid

John Hines wrote:

wrote:

I dont know .... the deer hunters in Wisconsin know about the "mad deer" disease in
the deer they are shooting and eating.. doesnt stop em at all. Ingrid

Yeah, but don't they have to send the heads in for analysis?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

if they were born, raised and turned into steaks since 1997 (?-since the ban in the
US) very safe from BSE. Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
One does wonder with the short life span of an Angus, just how safe are we?
~ jan


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Well Ingrid after doing some more digging and talking to my former feed
rep., yes it's widely available both here in Canada and in the US. It's
about $15 a bag cheaper than the soy based milk replacer ($40 a bag). It's
widely used for economic reasons... Damn, this is getting scarier almost by
the minute.... I always knew there was another reason why I refuse to eat
veal!
Janet

wrote in message
...
well shit... I didnt know they used blood in milk replacer. My farm
experience is
summers on my grandparents farm. but I am sure IF they used it they didnt
know what
was in it. Kosher laws are looking better and better. Ingrid

"Janet" wrote:
I was just reading an article that was stating all the loopholes the
animal
protein ban in feed. Calves are routinely fed milk replacer that is made
from cattle blood here

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...e=1&u=/usatoda
y/20031229/cm_usatoday/laxrulesandtestingputpubliccattleindustryatrisk
I didn't even know that was available! We only ever fed out one calf and
it
was with a soy based milk replacer. \ Ingrid you are full of all kind
of
interesting tidbits aren't you! D
Janet

wrote in message
...
blood can transmit prions, so during birth there is that possibility as
the placenta
separates. however, calves dont nurse long on dairy cows, and they are
saying this
cow was born before the ban. still no evidence it is transmitted in
milk.
Ingrid


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Your right, assuming no cross-contamination of cow-part-infected chicken
feed with beef calf feed. We're down to that very low minimal risk, but why
take any at all when it can so easily be eliminated by not using those
parts? Granted a probably more expensive protein material would have to be
used, but I doubt it would add that much per pound of poultry, etc. ~ jan

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 16:02:39 GMT, wrote:

if they were born, raised and turned into steaks since 1997 (?-since the ban in the
US) very safe from BSE. Ingrid

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
One does wonder with the short life span of an Angus, just how safe are we?
~ jan


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

~ jan

Has it occurred to anyone else here in the US that *lumber* is apparently
tracked more accurately than food is????

If I buy a 2x4 at Home Depot, it can apparently be tracked throughout its
whole life -- which seems to be quite simple compared to figuring out this
whole mad cow mess.

Anne Lurie
(in the heart of pig country)
Raleigh, NC

More Mad Moo News ~~
USDA Bans Risky Cow Parts from Hamburger Production
Reuters*- 1*hour*ago
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - US hamburger derived from special meat trimming
equipment cannot contain any central nervous system material that could spread
mad cow disease, the US Agriculture Department said on Tuesday.


ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html

Here are a couple of interesting links with some of todays events and
issues...
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/ramasastry/20031230.html and
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._re_us/mad_cow .
The interesting part (for me anyway) in the new "rules" announced today is
they dind't announce any timelines for implementation.
Janet

"Ka30P" wrote in message
...

More Mad Moo News ~~
USDA Bans Risky Cow Parts from Hamburger Production
Reuters - 1 hour ago
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - US hamburger derived from special meat trimming
equipment cannot contain any central nervous system material that could
spread
mad cow disease, the US Agriculture Department said on Tuesday.


ka30p
http://www.geocities.com/watergarden...dors/home.html

wrote:

There is a specific warning about "offal" which includes intestines. intestines also
includes lymphatic tissues sites of immune system cells called Peyers patches.
lymphatic tissue is suspect including the spleen, another large site of immune cells.

every time animals take a dump cells of the intestines are scraped off with the crap.

Oh. I'd never heard of the lymph tissue link. Nor that it was also
found in the intestines.

(Now if it was certain people in another news group, I'd not have
the least doubt how they ended up with something that was supposed to
be inside everyone *elses* skull ended up mixed with their dung.)

(Not to mention any names.)

rabbits are rather inefficient and even my dogs would go for rabbit poop in a big
way.

Dogs, pigs, bear, lots of animals, any type of dung not from their own
species. I guess deer could lip some up easily, without most people
being in a position to see what they were doing.


I would be very interested in what the other group has to say about CWD
transmission in deer.

Jan has not gotten back with any info that I've seen. She is good
people and usually pretty level headed, even if she pays too much
attention to PBS G.

I know the game farms have admitted feeding meat/bone meal to
game animals and losing them over fences.

Thought they did that. There is also a bit of freelance
feeding of wildlife (there is a big industry based on that),
and some of the augmentation feed intended to grow bigger antlers
might have started some of the infections.

Here in Wisconsin there was a guy up north that was a big hunter, had these huge
dinner parties with lots of wild game of all kinds. He has died of CJD and I have
heard so have some of his guests. So eating a lot of wild game it is more likely to
get an infected animal AND get a big enough dose to cause disease.

Wellll, hampsters are kind of short lived. If I understand how prions
"multiply", one prion surviving to reach a safe area in a human could
eventually corrupt enough other proteins to become a problem. Kuru
had maybe a 40yr incubation?

Yes, there sure are all kinds of prion diseases. Ingrid

(shudder) As I understand, not all of them are a problem, though?