Hal,

First point, the USDA said nothing of recommending anything in this article.
Chemicals and meds used in Aquaculture are regulated by the EPA and FDA, and
the reason for this is because the article that you are citing deals with
food fish.

Second point. 200 to 500ppm is equal to .02 to 05% salt in the water. This
is next to nothing and there is not a device on the market that can read
that low accurately with out spending a big chuck of money. In fact most
devices read in parts per ton (ppt) and one ppt is equal 1000ppm. In
addition, most people have more than that in Total Dissolved Salts (TDS) in
their water systems all ready. Here in Pawnee TDS averages about 410ppm, in
Stillwater it is 4,750ppm and for the most part TDS are going to affect any
salt meter you are using.

Also the remark you made about nitrite is incorrect somewhat, because it is
not the salt that helps protect against nitrite poisoning it is the chloride
in the salt that does this because it competes for the absorption position
at the gills of the fish as they are taking up oxygen from the water, plus
the chloride in the has to be 20:1 higher to the nitrite and must be
adjusted continually as the nitrite increases in concentration. Also,
Calcium chloride could be used instead of Sodium Chloride to achieve this
concentration. One level of Chloride in the water is not going to protect
as the level of nitrite increases. The chloride level must be adjust all
the time.

Also I would like to point out that in the place that suggests an indefinite
concentration of salt at the level of 1,000-2,000ppm (0.1 - 0.2%) is for
"hauling tanks." This is when the supplier is transporting 450 fish in a
500gallong tank. The indefinite time they are talking about deals with the
duration of time the fish are in the transport tank going from point A to
point B. During the hauling period a very high level of air is being pumped
into the tank to supply all the oxygen the high stocking level and to help
off set the amount of toxic waste that is building up in the tank during
transport.

The third point is that this article is for aquaculture facilities that are
dealing with pounds of fish per gallon of water not one Goldfish per 10
gallons of water. There is no correlation between this article and your
garden pond where you are keeping one KOI per 100 gallons of water.

It has nothing to do with back yard ponds.

Oh, and by the BV remark is supported by research now, for now there are
parasites and bacteria that live better in salter environments requiring
higher levels to kill them because of the prophylactic use of salt in fish
environments.

HTH

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------
"Hal" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:39:14 -0500, "BenignVanilla"
wrote:

I am just going to toss my biased 2 cents in. You should add NONE unless
you
are treating some condition and even then, you should know what you are
dealing with before you dose. I know penicillin kills a lot of stuff but
I
don't take it every day just in case. IMHO, salting your pond is the same
concept.

USDA recommends 200 to 500 ppm as an indefinite (permanent) salinity.
It relieves osmotic stress and prevents nitrite toxicity. This level
does not directly treat diseases or parasites, but it may allow fish to
more easily fight off and prevent them. This level is 2-2/3 to 6-2/3
ounces per 100 gallons. For 800 gallons, it would be 1.3 to 3.4 pounds.
As you can see, the precise level isn't important, and these levels are
far below those that affect plants. Reference: Table 3 in USDA
"Calculating Treatments for Ponds"
http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/pu...srac/410fs.pdf
n Rod

Reference is probably old and out of date, but the idea is still alive
in some ponders.

Regards,

Hal

Hal,

First point, the USDA said nothing of recommending anything in this article.
Chemicals and meds used in Aquaculture are regulated by the EPA and FDA, and
the reason for this is because the article that you are citing deals with
food fish.

Second point. 200 to 500ppm is equal to .02 to 05% salt in the water. This
is next to nothing and there is not a device on the market that can read
that low accurately with out spending a big chuck of money. In fact most
devices read in parts per ton (ppt) and one ppt is equal 1000ppm. In
addition, most people have more than that in Total Dissolved Salts (TDS) in
their water systems all ready. Here in Pawnee TDS averages about 410ppm, in
Stillwater it is 4,750ppm and for the most part TDS are going to affect any
salt meter you are using.

Also the remark you made about nitrite is incorrect somewhat, because it is
not the salt that helps protect against nitrite poisoning it is the chloride
in the salt that does this because it competes for the absorption position
at the gills of the fish as they are taking up oxygen from the water, plus
the chloride in the has to be 20:1 higher to the nitrite and must be
adjusted continually as the nitrite increases in concentration. Also,
Calcium chloride could be used instead of Sodium Chloride to achieve this
concentration. One level of Chloride in the water is not going to protect
as the level of nitrite increases. The chloride level must be adjust all
the time.

Also I would like to point out that in the place that suggests an indefinite
concentration of salt at the level of 1,000-2,000ppm (0.1 - 0.2%) is for
"hauling tanks." This is when the supplier is transporting 450 fish in a
500gallong tank. The indefinite time they are talking about deals with the
duration of time the fish are in the transport tank going from point A to
point B. During the hauling period a very high level of air is being pumped
into the tank to supply all the oxygen the high stocking level and to help
off set the amount of toxic waste that is building up in the tank during
transport.

The third point is that this article is for aquaculture facilities that are
dealing with pounds of fish per gallon of water not one Goldfish per 10
gallons of water. There is no correlation between this article and your
garden pond where you are keeping one KOI per 100 gallons of water.

It has nothing to do with back yard ponds.

Oh, and by the BV remark is supported by research now, for now there are
parasites and bacteria that live better in salter environments requiring
higher levels to kill them because of the prophylactic use of salt in fish
environments.

HTH

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------
"Hal" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:39:14 -0500, "BenignVanilla"
wrote:

I am just going to toss my biased 2 cents in. You should add NONE unless
you
are treating some condition and even then, you should know what you are
dealing with before you dose. I know penicillin kills a lot of stuff but
I
don't take it every day just in case. IMHO, salting your pond is the same
concept.

USDA recommends 200 to 500 ppm as an indefinite (permanent) salinity.
It relieves osmotic stress and prevents nitrite toxicity. This level
does not directly treat diseases or parasites, but it may allow fish to
more easily fight off and prevent them. This level is 2-2/3 to 6-2/3
ounces per 100 gallons. For 800 gallons, it would be 1.3 to 3.4 pounds.
As you can see, the precise level isn't important, and these levels are
far below those that affect plants. Reference: Table 3 in USDA
"Calculating Treatments for Ponds"
http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/pu...srac/410fs.pdf
n Rod

Reference is probably old and out of date, but the idea is still alive
in some ponders.

Regards,

Hal

Hal,

First point, the USDA said nothing of recommending anything in this article.
Chemicals and meds used in Aquaculture are regulated by the EPA and FDA, and
the reason for this is because the article that you are citing deals with
food fish.

Second point. 200 to 500ppm is equal to .02 to 05% salt in the water. This
is next to nothing and there is not a device on the market that can read
that low accurately with out spending a big chuck of money. In fact most
devices read in parts per ton (ppt) and one ppt is equal 1000ppm. In
addition, most people have more than that in Total Dissolved Salts (TDS) in
their water systems all ready. Here in Pawnee TDS averages about 410ppm, in
Stillwater it is 4,750ppm and for the most part TDS are going to affect any
salt meter you are using.

Also the remark you made about nitrite is incorrect somewhat, because it is
not the salt that helps protect against nitrite poisoning it is the chloride
in the salt that does this because it competes for the absorption position
at the gills of the fish as they are taking up oxygen from the water, plus
the chloride in the has to be 20:1 higher to the nitrite and must be
adjusted continually as the nitrite increases in concentration. Also,
Calcium chloride could be used instead of Sodium Chloride to achieve this
concentration. One level of Chloride in the water is not going to protect
as the level of nitrite increases. The chloride level must be adjust all
the time.

Also I would like to point out that in the place that suggests an indefinite
concentration of salt at the level of 1,000-2,000ppm (0.1 - 0.2%) is for
"hauling tanks." This is when the supplier is transporting 450 fish in a
500gallong tank. The indefinite time they are talking about deals with the
duration of time the fish are in the transport tank going from point A to
point B. During the hauling period a very high level of air is being pumped
into the tank to supply all the oxygen the high stocking level and to help
off set the amount of toxic waste that is building up in the tank during
transport.

The third point is that this article is for aquaculture facilities that are
dealing with pounds of fish per gallon of water not one Goldfish per 10
gallons of water. There is no correlation between this article and your
garden pond where you are keeping one KOI per 100 gallons of water.

It has nothing to do with back yard ponds.

Oh, and by the BV remark is supported by research now, for now there are
parasites and bacteria that live better in salter environments requiring
higher levels to kill them because of the prophylactic use of salt in fish
environments.

HTH

Tom L.L.
------------------------------------------
"Hal" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:39:14 -0500, "BenignVanilla"
wrote:

I am just going to toss my biased 2 cents in. You should add NONE unless
you
are treating some condition and even then, you should know what you are
dealing with before you dose. I know penicillin kills a lot of stuff but
I
don't take it every day just in case. IMHO, salting your pond is the same
concept.

USDA recommends 200 to 500 ppm as an indefinite (permanent) salinity.
It relieves osmotic stress and prevents nitrite toxicity. This level
does not directly treat diseases or parasites, but it may allow fish to
more easily fight off and prevent them. This level is 2-2/3 to 6-2/3
ounces per 100 gallons. For 800 gallons, it would be 1.3 to 3.4 pounds.
As you can see, the precise level isn't important, and these levels are
far below those that affect plants. Reference: Table 3 in USDA
"Calculating Treatments for Ponds"
http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/pu...srac/410fs.pdf
n Rod

Reference is probably old and out of date, but the idea is still alive
in some ponders.

Regards,

Hal

OK now I'm confussed. I started useing salt because most here said it
was best. Now some say not to=BF=BF=BF=BF Should I or Not??=BF=BF So far
my fish are doing fine. Should I keep it up or not.



http://community.webtv.net/rebeljoe/POND

yes. it is best to have that low level of salt in the pond. now some people here
never use it and do fine, but some people here have a natural level of salinity in
their water like those live near the coasts or those live where the water flows thru
salt deposits. Brett who breeds and raises koi has natural salt in the water he
pumps into his ponds. Even so, he adds considerable salt as a preventative. I tend
to follow the advice given by people who make their living from fish rather than
hobbiest who have perfected their fish keeping abilities on a few tanks maybe with
water a whole lot better than I have coming outta the tap. Ingrid

(REBEL JOE) wrote:

OK now I'm confussed. I started useing salt because most here said it
was best. Now some say not to¿¿¿¿ Should I or Not??¿¿ So far
my fish are doing fine. Should I keep it up or not.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

yes. it is best to have that low level of salt in the pond. now some people here
never use it and do fine, but some people here have a natural level of salinity in
their water like those live near the coasts or those live where the water flows thru
salt deposits. Brett who breeds and raises koi has natural salt in the water he
pumps into his ponds. Even so, he adds considerable salt as a preventative. I tend
to follow the advice given by people who make their living from fish rather than
hobbiest who have perfected their fish keeping abilities on a few tanks maybe with
water a whole lot better than I have coming outta the tap. Ingrid

(REBEL JOE) wrote:

OK now I'm confussed. I started useing salt because most here said it
was best. Now some say not to¿¿¿¿ Should I or Not??¿¿ So far
my fish are doing fine. Should I keep it up or not.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

yes. it is best to have that low level of salt in the pond. now some people here
never use it and do fine, but some people here have a natural level of salinity in
their water like those live near the coasts or those live where the water flows thru
salt deposits. Brett who breeds and raises koi has natural salt in the water he
pumps into his ponds. Even so, he adds considerable salt as a preventative. I tend
to follow the advice given by people who make their living from fish rather than
hobbiest who have perfected their fish keeping abilities on a few tanks maybe with
water a whole lot better than I have coming outta the tap. Ingrid

(REBEL JOE) wrote:

OK now I'm confussed. I started useing salt because most here said it
was best. Now some say not to¿¿¿¿ Should I or Not??¿¿ So far
my fish are doing fine. Should I keep it up or not.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

yes. it is best to have that low level of salt in the pond. now some people here
never use it and do fine, but some people here have a natural level of salinity in
their water like those live near the coasts or those live where the water flows thru
salt deposits. Brett who breeds and raises koi has natural salt in the water he
pumps into his ponds. Even so, he adds considerable salt as a preventative. I tend
to follow the advice given by people who make their living from fish rather than
hobbiest who have perfected their fish keeping abilities on a few tanks maybe with
water a whole lot better than I have coming outta the tap. Ingrid

(REBEL JOE) wrote:

OK now I'm confussed. I started useing salt because most here said it
was best. Now some say not to¿¿¿¿ Should I or Not??¿¿ So far
my fish are doing fine. Should I keep it up or not.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

yes. it is best to have that low level of salt in the pond. now some people here
never use it and do fine, but some people here have a natural level of salinity in
their water like those live near the coasts or those live where the water flows thru
salt deposits. Brett who breeds and raises koi has natural salt in the water he
pumps into his ponds. Even so, he adds considerable salt as a preventative. I tend
to follow the advice given by people who make their living from fish rather than
hobbiest who have perfected their fish keeping abilities on a few tanks maybe with
water a whole lot better than I have coming outta the tap. Ingrid

(REBEL JOE) wrote:

OK now I'm confussed. I started useing salt because most here said it
was best. Now some say not to¿¿¿¿ Should I or Not??¿¿ So far
my fish are doing fine. Should I keep it up or not.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

Rebel Joe,

Salt is one of those thinks that has turned into an urban legend. The only
thing that people use as references for using salt is Aquaculture research
that is dealing with high stocking loads (as high as one pound of fish per
gallon of water) for fish that are kept only for a short period of time
before they are sent off to market. If you read my response to Hal you see
what I mean.

Ingrid response to you about Brett farm is a little misleading because
Brett's farm are on a salt plain and his water is salty all the time. He
has no choice. He can't get fresh water except for the local municipality
at a high cost when you consider the gallonage of his ponds. He has several
ponds in the 100,000 gallon range.

The thing you have to remember that salt is an irritate to fish which is why
the produce more mucus with the presence of salt being in the water. I also
stated in my message to Hal why the very low percentages of salt in the
water is hardly effective for protecting against nitrite poisoning. If you
concentrate on clean clear water you will be much better off and so will be
your fish. I do not use salt, except as a med when it warrants it for
certain diseases, but I have not had a sick fish in 6 years, so I don't even
need it for that reason. I always say that three things for keep happy
health fish is: 1. Clean water, 2. Clear Water, and last but not least, 3.
Clean water. Keeping your water chemistry in line keeping the water clean
and clear is a much better use of your time, if you do this you will not
have trouble with your fish getting sick. The other thing is that salt is
hard to keep track of unless you are very methodical in your administration
of it to your pond or tanks. Although the salt kits do read salt ppm you
have to be careful of their accuracy and unless you spend a lot of money
very few kits or device will effectively read salinity level accurately in
freshwater.

I also mentioned in message to Hal you have to know what the TDS are in your
own water system. Some are low and some are high. When I lived in San
Diego and Los Angeles the TDS were in the 15,000+ range. In the TDS levels
are sodium chloride and calcium chloride and a bunch of other salts.
Depending where you live you Sodium chloride level may already be in place.

After 40 years of growing, breeding and selling Goldfish it is better to
keep the salt on your dinner table for French fries and corn on the cob and
keep it out of your pond. It is not needed in your pond if you take care of
your water.

HTH and have a good day.

If you have any other questions you can write to me privately if you want to
get more information. I don't do this for a living, but it certainly more
than a hobby done for fun.

Tom L.L.
-------------------------------------
"REBEL JOE" wrote in message
...
OK now I'm confussed. I started useing salt because most here said it
was best. Now some say not to¿¿¿¿ Should I or Not??¿¿ So far
my fish are doing fine. Should I keep it up or not.



http://community.webtv.net/rebeljoe/POND

Rebel Joe,

Salt is one of those thinks that has turned into an urban legend. The only
thing that people use as references for using salt is Aquaculture research
that is dealing with high stocking loads (as high as one pound of fish per
gallon of water) for fish that are kept only for a short period of time
before they are sent off to market. If you read my response to Hal you see
what I mean.

Ingrid response to you about Brett farm is a little misleading because
Brett's farm are on a salt plain and his water is salty all the time. He
has no choice. He can't get fresh water except for the local municipality
at a high cost when you consider the gallonage of his ponds. He has several
ponds in the 100,000 gallon range.

The thing you have to remember that salt is an irritate to fish which is why
the produce more mucus with the presence of salt being in the water. I also
stated in my message to Hal why the very low percentages of salt in the
water is hardly effective for protecting against nitrite poisoning. If you
concentrate on clean clear water you will be much better off and so will be
your fish. I do not use salt, except as a med when it warrants it for
certain diseases, but I have not had a sick fish in 6 years, so I don't even
need it for that reason. I always say that three things for keep happy
health fish is: 1. Clean water, 2. Clear Water, and last but not least, 3.
Clean water. Keeping your water chemistry in line keeping the water clean
and clear is a much better use of your time, if you do this you will not
have trouble with your fish getting sick. The other thing is that salt is
hard to keep track of unless you are very methodical in your administration
of it to your pond or tanks. Although the salt kits do read salt ppm you
have to be careful of their accuracy and unless you spend a lot of money
very few kits or device will effectively read salinity level accurately in
freshwater.

I also mentioned in message to Hal you have to know what the TDS are in your
own water system. Some are low and some are high. When I lived in San
Diego and Los Angeles the TDS were in the 15,000+ range. In the TDS levels
are sodium chloride and calcium chloride and a bunch of other salts.
Depending where you live you Sodium chloride level may already be in place.

After 40 years of growing, breeding and selling Goldfish it is better to
keep the salt on your dinner table for French fries and corn on the cob and
keep it out of your pond. It is not needed in your pond if you take care of
your water.

HTH and have a good day.

If you have any other questions you can write to me privately if you want to
get more information. I don't do this for a living, but it certainly more
than a hobby done for fun.

Tom L.L.
-------------------------------------
"REBEL JOE" wrote in message
...
OK now I'm confussed. I started useing salt because most here said it
was best. Now some say not to¿¿¿¿ Should I or Not??¿¿ So far
my fish are doing fine. Should I keep it up or not.



http://community.webtv.net/rebeljoe/POND

On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 23:02:04 -0600, "Tom La Bron"
wrote:

Hal,

First point, the USDA said nothing of recommending anything in this article.
Chemicals and meds used in Aquaculture are regulated by the EPA and FDA, and
the reason for this is because the article that you are citing deals with
food fish.

I understand they are talking about raising food fish. They are also
talking about the best environment for raising more pounds of food fish
for the investment, but that strikes me as a good environment for my
pets too.

Second point. 200 to 500ppm is equal to .02 to 05% salt in the water. This
is next to nothing and there is not a device on the market that can read
that low accurately with out spending a big chuck of money.

The Pond Care Salt Level Test Kit (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals) cost me
about $10 and seems to work well for those measurements. I'm sure
there are more expensive methods, but this isn't rocket science, just
enough salt to stimulate the slime coat and I never go over .1%. I
understand some people use .3% routinely and I've heard of even higher
concentrations of salt being used, but I believe the higher doses should
only be used to medicate, but others have opinions too.

Also the remark you made about nitrite is incorrect somewhat, because it is
not the salt that helps protect against nitrite poisoning it is the chloride
in the salt that does this because it competes for the absorption position
at the gills of the fish as they are taking up oxygen from the water, plus
the chloride in the has to be 20:1 higher to the nitrite and must be
adjusted continually as the nitrite increases in concentration. Also,
Calcium chloride could be used instead of Sodium Chloride to achieve this
concentration. One level of Chloride in the water is not going to protect
as the level of nitrite increases. The chloride level must be adjust all
the time.

I didn't know that, but wouldn't the sodium chloride work as well as the
calcium chloride? I had a bag of calcium chloride once but I spread
it on the walk to melt the ice. It never occurred to me to use it in a
pond.

Also I would like to point out that in the place that suggests an indefinite
concentration of salt at the level of 1,000-2,000ppm (0.1 - 0.2%) is for
"hauling tanks." This is when the supplier is transporting 450 fish in a
500gallong tank. The indefinite time they are talking about deals with the
duration of time the fish are in the transport tank going from point A to
point B. During the hauling period a very high level of air is being pumped
into the tank to supply all the oxygen the high stocking level and to help
off set the amount of toxic waste that is building up in the tank during
transport.

I don't see a relationship between the oxygen level and salt
concentration. I guessed the increased salt was to stimulate the slime
coat and help prevent swapping of parasites during the trip in such a
confined puddle. Is there another reason?

The third point is that this article is for aquaculture facilities that are
dealing with pounds of fish per gallon of water not one Goldfish per 10
gallons of water. There is no correlation between this article and your
garden pond where you are keeping one KOI per 100 gallons of water.

It has nothing to do with back yard ponds.

I don't see it that way. I know koi farmers raise their fish in clay
bottom ponds allowing them to root in the mud like true bottom feeders
do and I have a liner and feed them on top of the water so I can see
them, but I feel some similarities exist simply because they are fish
and in water. Just because you raise show quality koi they don't change
into something other than a fish.

Oh, and by the BV remark is supported by research now, for now there are
parasites and bacteria that live better in salter environments requiring
higher levels to kill them because of the prophylactic use of salt in fish
environments.

Yes, I read a couple things about that too and it sounds reasonable to
me. I hope my adding a bit of salt (.1%) every winter doesn't cause
such a condition in my pond, but I'm still learning and if it does I'll
have to deal with it when and if it happens. I believe it was someone
in the San Diego Koi Club that said they have a natural concentration of
about .04% salt in the water. I feel sure the parasites and bacteria
have adjusted to that level, and the same has happened in my pond, but
I'm hoping by adding enough salt to bring the concentration to .1% I
give the fish a stimulated slime coat that helps them ward off
parasites.

Regards,

Hal

On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 23:02:04 -0600, "Tom La Bron"
wrote:

Hal,

First point, the USDA said nothing of recommending anything in this article.
Chemicals and meds used in Aquaculture are regulated by the EPA and FDA, and
the reason for this is because the article that you are citing deals with
food fish.

I understand they are talking about raising food fish. They are also
talking about the best environment for raising more pounds of food fish
for the investment, but that strikes me as a good environment for my
pets too.

Second point. 200 to 500ppm is equal to .02 to 05% salt in the water. This
is next to nothing and there is not a device on the market that can read
that low accurately with out spending a big chuck of money.

The Pond Care Salt Level Test Kit (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals) cost me
about $10 and seems to work well for those measurements. I'm sure
there are more expensive methods, but this isn't rocket science, just
enough salt to stimulate the slime coat and I never go over .1%. I
understand some people use .3% routinely and I've heard of even higher
concentrations of salt being used, but I believe the higher doses should
only be used to medicate, but others have opinions too.

Also the remark you made about nitrite is incorrect somewhat, because it is
not the salt that helps protect against nitrite poisoning it is the chloride
in the salt that does this because it competes for the absorption position
at the gills of the fish as they are taking up oxygen from the water, plus
the chloride in the has to be 20:1 higher to the nitrite and must be
adjusted continually as the nitrite increases in concentration. Also,
Calcium chloride could be used instead of Sodium Chloride to achieve this
concentration. One level of Chloride in the water is not going to protect
as the level of nitrite increases. The chloride level must be adjust all
the time.

I didn't know that, but wouldn't the sodium chloride work as well as the
calcium chloride? I had a bag of calcium chloride once but I spread
it on the walk to melt the ice. It never occurred to me to use it in a
pond.

Also I would like to point out that in the place that suggests an indefinite
concentration of salt at the level of 1,000-2,000ppm (0.1 - 0.2%) is for
"hauling tanks." This is when the supplier is transporting 450 fish in a
500gallong tank. The indefinite time they are talking about deals with the
duration of time the fish are in the transport tank going from point A to
point B. During the hauling period a very high level of air is being pumped
into the tank to supply all the oxygen the high stocking level and to help
off set the amount of toxic waste that is building up in the tank during
transport.

I don't see a relationship between the oxygen level and salt
concentration. I guessed the increased salt was to stimulate the slime
coat and help prevent swapping of parasites during the trip in such a
confined puddle. Is there another reason?

The third point is that this article is for aquaculture facilities that are
dealing with pounds of fish per gallon of water not one Goldfish per 10
gallons of water. There is no correlation between this article and your
garden pond where you are keeping one KOI per 100 gallons of water.

It has nothing to do with back yard ponds.

I don't see it that way. I know koi farmers raise their fish in clay
bottom ponds allowing them to root in the mud like true bottom feeders
do and I have a liner and feed them on top of the water so I can see
them, but I feel some similarities exist simply because they are fish
and in water. Just because you raise show quality koi they don't change
into something other than a fish.

Oh, and by the BV remark is supported by research now, for now there are
parasites and bacteria that live better in salter environments requiring
higher levels to kill them because of the prophylactic use of salt in fish
environments.

Yes, I read a couple things about that too and it sounds reasonable to
me. I hope my adding a bit of salt (.1%) every winter doesn't cause
such a condition in my pond, but I'm still learning and if it does I'll
have to deal with it when and if it happens. I believe it was someone
in the San Diego Koi Club that said they have a natural concentration of
about .04% salt in the water. I feel sure the parasites and bacteria
have adjusted to that level, and the same has happened in my pond, but
I'm hoping by adding enough salt to bring the concentration to .1% I
give the fish a stimulated slime coat that helps them ward off
parasites.

Regards,

Hal

yes, of course the sodium chloride works better and is cheaper and more extensively
used. I wouldnt think of using stuff made for walks in the water my fish are in. The
kind of rock salt used for water softeners is for human consumption, dont get the
stuff sold for walks in that either. There should be sufficient calcium in the water
to act as a buffer, and better to use organic dolomitic limestone to bring calcium up
than calcium chloride. Dolomitic limestone has both calcium and magnesium, provides
a good buffer.
You are right, prophylactic efficacy of low levels of salt is in stimulating the
slime coat. It is much better for the fish to fix high nitrites with water changes!!
I tend to think of my small and overstocked pond as more similar to hauling tanks
than large clay bottom ponds where they are raised. Besides, most of the aquaculture
people like Dr. Ruth Floyd and Jo Ann Burke also recommend the low level salt for
ponds and fish tanks.
I am a microbiologist. If there are salt resistant bugs out there not using salt
isnt going to "force" them to revert to salt sensitive. It is like saying not using
an antibiotic is going to result in bacteria becoming sensitive again. Maybe in a
couple hundred years, but not in our lifetime, nor the lifetime of the fish. My fish
were raised in ponds where salt was used at low levels. My fish "come" with salt
resistant whatever and my not using salt isnt going to change that at all. In the
mean time my fish are healthier and more able to throw off problems because I add a
bit of salt to my otherwise salt free lake water.
wow. that is interesting about the San Diego water supply, but not that surprising.
Actually, with that amount of salt in the water already adding more is not really all
that necessary either. Ingrid

Hal wrote:
I didn't know that, but wouldn't the sodium chloride work as well as the
calcium chloride? I had a bag of calcium chloride once but I spread
it on the walk to melt the ice. It never occurred to me to use it in a
pond.
I don't see a relationship between the oxygen level and salt
concentration. I guessed the increased salt was to stimulate the slime
coat and help prevent swapping of parasites during the trip in such a
confined puddle. Is there another reason?
Yes, I read a couple things about that too and it sounds reasonable to
me. I hope my adding a bit of salt (.1%) every winter doesn't cause
such a condition in my pond, but I'm still learning and if it does I'll
have to deal with it when and if it happens. I believe it was someone
in the San Diego Koi Club that said they have a natural concentration of
about .04% salt in the water.
Hal



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

yes, of course the sodium chloride works better and is cheaper and more extensively
used. I wouldnt think of using stuff made for walks in the water my fish are in. The
kind of rock salt used for water softeners is for human consumption, dont get the
stuff sold for walks in that either. There should be sufficient calcium in the water
to act as a buffer, and better to use organic dolomitic limestone to bring calcium up
than calcium chloride. Dolomitic limestone has both calcium and magnesium, provides
a good buffer.
You are right, prophylactic efficacy of low levels of salt is in stimulating the
slime coat. It is much better for the fish to fix high nitrites with water changes!!
I tend to think of my small and overstocked pond as more similar to hauling tanks
than large clay bottom ponds where they are raised. Besides, most of the aquaculture
people like Dr. Ruth Floyd and Jo Ann Burke also recommend the low level salt for
ponds and fish tanks.
I am a microbiologist. If there are salt resistant bugs out there not using salt
isnt going to "force" them to revert to salt sensitive. It is like saying not using
an antibiotic is going to result in bacteria becoming sensitive again. Maybe in a
couple hundred years, but not in our lifetime, nor the lifetime of the fish. My fish
were raised in ponds where salt was used at low levels. My fish "come" with salt
resistant whatever and my not using salt isnt going to change that at all. In the
mean time my fish are healthier and more able to throw off problems because I add a
bit of salt to my otherwise salt free lake water.
wow. that is interesting about the San Diego water supply, but not that surprising.
Actually, with that amount of salt in the water already adding more is not really all
that necessary either. Ingrid

Hal wrote:
I didn't know that, but wouldn't the sodium chloride work as well as the
calcium chloride? I had a bag of calcium chloride once but I spread
it on the walk to melt the ice. It never occurred to me to use it in a
pond.
I don't see a relationship between the oxygen level and salt
concentration. I guessed the increased salt was to stimulate the slime
coat and help prevent swapping of parasites during the trip in such a
confined puddle. Is there another reason?
Yes, I read a couple things about that too and it sounds reasonable to
me. I hope my adding a bit of salt (.1%) every winter doesn't cause
such a condition in my pond, but I'm still learning and if it does I'll
have to deal with it when and if it happens. I believe it was someone
in the San Diego Koi Club that said they have a natural concentration of
about .04% salt in the water.
Hal



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.