On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:30:46 GMT, Crashj wrote:

"What is 'google'?"
"I'll take 'Endless Threads' for $100."

Under above heading:

Troll Bait.


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

On Fri, 24 Dec 2004 21:30:46 GMT, Crashj wrote:

"What is 'google'?"
"I'll take 'Endless Threads' for $100."

Under above heading:

Troll Bait.


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Tom,
I have no idea what has happned in the past. But your fish advice is
sound and makes sense to me.

I think that NGs get to be like Grade shcool and people have egos then
all of a sudden , some posters expect other poster to follow them as if
they are the only ones with answers. I think its an Ego thing , not a
money making thing.

I have had people try and tell me false things about you and your
business practices, you know who you are and you know what you told me
on the phone about Toms stock and I know it was a total lie and slander.


I always will hold out hope that the NGs I am in will look at all sides
of an issue and not blindly follow someone just because people don't
feel like researching the advice they get.

I have been in a Fish Society Club now for awhile. I have been so lucky
to meet breeders that have bred fish including goldfish for over 30
years. And I print out some of the advice here it sometimes gives them a
good chuckle.

Any advice from a NG should be researched and examined and questioned.
Anyone giving adivice should welcome debate and investagation, if they
get mad well then they might have something to hide.

Kay

Tom,
I have no idea what has happned in the past. But your fish advice is
sound and makes sense to me.

I think that NGs get to be like Grade shcool and people have egos then
all of a sudden , some posters expect other poster to follow them as if
they are the only ones with answers. I think its an Ego thing , not a
money making thing.

I have had people try and tell me false things about you and your
business practices, you know who you are and you know what you told me
on the phone about Toms stock and I know it was a total lie and slander.


I always will hold out hope that the NGs I am in will look at all sides
of an issue and not blindly follow someone just because people don't
feel like researching the advice they get.

I have been in a Fish Society Club now for awhile. I have been so lucky
to meet breeders that have bred fish including goldfish for over 30
years. And I print out some of the advice here it sometimes gives them a
good chuckle.

Any advice from a NG should be researched and examined and questioned.
Anyone giving adivice should welcome debate and investagation, if they
get mad well then they might have something to hide.

Kay

"Donald K" wrote in message
...
Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea--massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.
-Gene Spafford
=======================
LOL!!! :-D How true!!!
--

Carol.... the frugal ponder...
~~~~~~{@
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Pricelesswa FREE SOFTWARE
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Donald K" wrote in message
...
Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea--massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it.
-Gene Spafford
=======================
LOL!!! :-D How true!!!
--

Carol.... the frugal ponder...
~~~~~~{@
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
Pricelesswa FREE SOFTWARE
http://www.pricelessware.org
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

wrote in message
...
snip
There is NO downside to having/using low levels of salt in a pond
prophylactically.
OTOH, there are obvious benefits of salt to fish under stress, a condition
that is
status quo in most ponds. Sharp temp drops, visits from herons or other
predators,
bathing birds pooping parasites into the ponds, spawning, labs taking a
swim. I have
probably one of the tightest ponds in terms of controlling various
stressful
conditions but I am unwilling to take the risk to my fish...... I use
salt. If you
dont want to, dont. But dont attack me for defending a very good and
healthy
practice for keeping koi, one that is recommended by the experts. Ingrid
snip

Just to be clear, the article I posted a link to, does not recommend keeping
fresh water fish in a saline environment, it simply states that salt can be
used as aid, and that amounts, time of exposure, etc. need to be based on
species. I don't believe this can be transposed to mean we should all keep
salt in our ponds.

"Salt has many uses in modern aquaculture. Although FDA has not approved the
use of salt as a "drug" to treat fish, the agency has designated salt as a
compound of "low regulatory priority." Salt is inexpensive, readily
available, and, when properly administered, safe for use in freshwater fish.
Therapeutic uses for salt include parasite control, osmoregulatory
stabilization, mucus production, and alleviation of methemoglobinemia in
freshwater fish. Salt concentration should be based on intended use,
duration of exposure, and tolerance of the species to be treated. "


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

And the frequency that salt is advised to use by the majority in this
forum really makes one wonder if they really know what they are
talking about or just blowing hot air.........

Salt the miracle curall so it seems to be with most here........



On Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:17:08 -0500, "Benign Vanilla"
wrote:

===
wrote in message
...
===snip
=== There is NO downside to having/using low levels of salt in a pond
===prophylactically.
=== OTOH, there are obvious benefits of salt to fish under stress, a condition
===that is
=== status quo in most ponds. Sharp temp drops, visits from herons or other
===predators,
=== bathing birds pooping parasites into the ponds, spawning, labs taking a
===swim. I have
=== probably one of the tightest ponds in terms of controlling various
===stressful
=== conditions but I am unwilling to take the risk to my fish...... I use
===salt. If you
=== dont want to, dont. But dont attack me for defending a very good and
===healthy
=== practice for keeping koi, one that is recommended by the experts. Ingrid
===snip
===
===Just to be clear, the article I posted a link to, does not recommend keeping
===fresh water fish in a saline environment, it simply states that salt can be
===used as aid, and that amounts, time of exposure, etc. need to be based on
===species. I don't believe this can be transposed to mean we should all keep
===salt in our ponds.
===
==="Salt has many uses in modern aquaculture. Although FDA has not approved the
===use of salt as a "drug" to treat fish, the agency has designated salt as a
===compound of "low regulatory priority." Salt is inexpensive, readily
===available, and, when properly administered, safe for use in freshwater fish.
===Therapeutic uses for salt include parasite control, osmoregulatory
===stabilization, mucus production, and alleviation of methemoglobinemia in
===freshwater fish. Salt concentration should be based on intended use,
===duration of exposure, and tolerance of the species to be treated. "

Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wife,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

I had parasite problems in my Aquarium until I started maintaining
a .1 salt level.The Ich and cotton went away.
I have kept my bluegill pond salt at .1 for a year now and nothing
else. I have cleaned several of the fish and I havent found anything.
No Ichs, no lesions. no worms that I could see with my naked eye.Their
livers looked great. Untill something bad happens Im sold on salt
P.S. PETA They tasted great too.

And Dr. Floyd made it abundantly clear was that one of the uses of the very safe salt
is in the tank or pond all the time. Just check with Jo Ann Burke. 251-649-4790.
Certainly Noga has a section on continuous salt use in his book.
Ingrid

"Benign Vanilla" wrote:
Just to be clear, the article I posted a link to, does not recommend keeping
fresh water fish in a saline environment, it simply states that salt can be
used as aid, and that amounts, time of exposure, etc. need to be based on
species. I don't believe this can be transposed to mean we should all keep
salt in our ponds.

"Salt has many uses in modern aquaculture. Although FDA has not approved the
use of salt as a "drug" to treat fish, the agency has designated salt as a
compound of "low regulatory priority." Salt is inexpensive, readily
available, and, when properly administered, safe for use in freshwater fish.
Therapeutic uses for salt include parasite control, osmoregulatory
stabilization, mucus production, and alleviation of methemoglobinemia in
freshwater fish. Salt concentration should be based on intended use,
duration of exposure, and tolerance of the species to be treated. "



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

well there is certainly no reason to argue with your point.

(Roy) wrote:
And the frequency that salt is advised to use by the majority in this
forum really makes one wonder if they really know what they are
talking about or just blowing hot air.........

Salt the miracle curall so it seems to be with most here........


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
And Dr. Floyd made it abundantly clear was that one of the uses of the
very safe salt
is in the tank or pond all the time. Just check with Jo Ann Burke.
251-649-4790.
Certainly Noga has a section on continuous salt use in his book.
snip

I did not see reference to keeping salt in a pond or a tank, in the
aforementioned article.


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Dr. Floyd teaches classes. According to Jo Ann, Dr. Floyd made it abundantly clear
that continuous use can be beneficial in class.
In this article she did not say that continuous use was bad. How can anyone assume
anything from what WASNT said?
Dr. Floyd talks about how beneficial salt is to fish when they are stressed.
If you dont think your fish are stressed, dont use salt.
My fish are in a pond and stressed, so I use salt.
Ingrid


"Benign Vanilla" wrote:
I did not see reference to keeping salt in a pond or a tank, in the
aforementioned article.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
Dr. Floyd teaches classes. According to Jo Ann, Dr. Floyd made it
abundantly clear
that continuous use can be beneficial in class.
In this article she did not say that continuous use was bad. How can
anyone assume
anything from what WASNT said?
Dr. Floyd talks about how beneficial salt is to fish when they are
stressed.
If you dont think your fish are stressed, dont use salt.
My fish are in a pond and stressed, so I use salt.

I can't speak to what Joann learned in the class, I can only refer to the
article, http://ihmp.net/@/bu.

In the article, Dr. Floyd does NOT say that constant usage IS good, and she
goes as far as to point out when salt is useful, such as for transport and
for dipping in response to some parasites. She does say,

"Finally, a light solution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may be used as a
permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite
effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate
prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations; however, tetras and fish
that navigate by electrical field (e.g., elephant nose) should not be
maintained in salt. "

Which, IMHO, reinforces my position. Salt is not bad, but it has a time and
a place, and that time and place is based on several factors, including the
fish's condition, species, reason for the salt, and most importantly the
current salinity of water.

More importantly, she uses the words "most fish can tolerate prolonged
exposure to salt". So in some case Salt is very bad such as the elephant
nose, and in other case the fish can tolerate it. THIS is how I can infer
that keeping salt in my pond as a daily/every day thing, is not a good
thing. How do you extrapolate this out to using salt every day?

Do you take penicillin every day in order to rid yourself of an infection
you may or may not have? So why do this to your fish? You say they are
stressed, why? Why not remove the stress?


--
BV
Webporgmaster of iheartmypond.com
Check out the IHMP forums, ihmp.net/phpbb
I'll be leaning on the bus stop post.

Read this way ""Finally, a light solution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may be used as
a permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite
effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate
prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations;" meaning all the way up to 0.2%

She is saying to use permanently in recirculating systems. This is important cause
many breeders with dirt ponds pump water thru the system and out, and using salt
would be useless in flow thru systems as it is just washed out anyway. the parasite
burden is low in flow thru systems in any case. main problem in our "recirculating
systems" is stress and stress means over growth of single celled protozoans. the low
levels of salt increase slime coat turnover (with concomitant antimicrobial protein
secretion) thereby controlling the single celled protozoans. that is the main use
of low levels of salt, and the benefit to those people with naturally low levels of
salt in their water.

Dr. Floyd recommended salt as a preventative as part of the course work. Jo Ann has
used salt in her tanks and recirculating ponds for 20+ years with excellent results.
So, evidently, does Jackie and Sun who told Jo Ann they did add/use salt in their
ponds. Koi breeders like Brett also add/use salt in their koi ponds even tho the
water he uses is already pretty high in salts. Others with flow thru systems are not
going to waste their money adding salt.

Ingrid


"Benign Vanilla" wrote:
olution of 0.01 to 0.2 percent salt may be used as a
permanent treatment in recirculating systems. Such levels are quite
effective in eliminating single-cell protozoans. Most fish can tolerate
prolonged exposure to salt at these concentrations; however, tetras and fish
that navigate by electrical field (e.g., elephant nose) should not be
maintained in salt. "

Which, IMHO, reinforces my position. Salt is not bad, but it has a time and
a place, and that time and place is based on several factors, including the
fish's condition, species, reason for the salt, and most importantly the
current salinity of water.

More importantly, she uses the words "most fish can tolerate prolonged
exposure to salt". So in some case Salt is very bad such as the elephant
nose, and in other case the fish can tolerate it. THIS is how I can infer
that keeping salt in my pond as a daily/every day thing, is not a good
thing. How do you extrapolate this out to using salt every day?

Do you take penicillin every day in order to rid yourself of an infection
you may or may not have? So why do this to your fish? You say they are
stressed, why? Why not remove the stress?



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.