Torsten Brinch wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:23:27 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
The avg income earner in UK had an income in 99/00
of £23400 (males)/£14400(females).
(Source: Survey of Personal Incomes, Board of Inland Revenue)

For comparison, avg farm income (Cash Income, rounded figures):
93/94 94/95 95/96 96/97 97/98 98/99 99/00 00/01
£39000 £43000 £53000 £52000 £41000 £35000 £33000 £31000
(Source: Farm Accounts Book)


The other point that is relevant here is that a significant number of farm
businesses are made up of family partnerships.
So if your £31000 has to keep father & 2 sons ( all married ) then to try
and compare it with the average income earner in the UK is misleading to say
the least.
David B
Still not sure what they mean by Cash Income and whose farm account book is
your source ?

On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:30:50 -0000, "David B"
wrote:

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
For comparison, avg farm income (Cash Income, rounded figures):
93/94 94/95 95/96 96/97 97/98 98/99 99/00 00/01
£39000 £43000 £53000 £52000 £41000 £35000 £33000 £31000
(Source: Farm Accounts Book)

Still not sure what they mean by Cash Income and whose farm account book is
your source ?


On Sat, 04 Jan 2003 19:11:26 +0100, Torsten Brinch
wrote:
On Sat, 04 Jan 2003 17:23:51 +0000 (GMT),
("David G. Bell") wrote:
..And what is Torsten's source?

Farm accounts book, latest edition.
http://www.defra.gov.uk/esg/Work_htm...cf/fab/fab.htm

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 18:45:46 -0000, "Hamish Macbeth"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 18:05:09 -0000, "Hamish Macbeth"
wrote:
Simple, you quote a seriese of statistics I can only check one of
them.
That is wrong so I cannot trust the rest.

The avg income earner in UK had an income in 99/00
of £23400 (males)/£14400(females).
(Source: Survey of Personal Incomes, Board of Inland Revenue)

For comparison, avg farm income (Cash Income, rounded figures):
93/94 94/95 95/96 96/97 97/98 98/99 99/00 00/01
£39000 £43000 £53000 £52000 £41000 £35000 £33000 £31000
(Source: Farm Accounts Book)


I had no doubt that the figure came from a reputable source, just in
isolation it is meaningless and therefore the numbers it is used to
compare
with are meaningless.

Hamish, what exactly is the problem? The two sets of figures are
posted just above from here, together, not in isolation, and with
the source and nature of data identified.


No problem other than to extract meaning from your figures.

You have a average UK wage which is not clear and you are comparing it with
'cash income' of a farm.
Perhaps as I am not a farmer I do not understand the exact meaning of the
term. But to me it begs questions.
How many people are drawing a wage from this and how many clever accountancy
tricks have been applied to it?
It is very difficult to compare wages of people on PAYE and the self
employed.
When it comes to farms and accomodation included as part of the farm it
becomes even more difficult to
compare meaningfully.

On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:10:22 -0000, "Hamish Macbeth"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
The avg income earner in UK had an income in 99/00
of £23400 (males)/£14400(females).
(Source: Survey of Personal Incomes, Board of Inland Revenue)
For comparison, avg farm income (Cash Income, rounded figures):
93/94 94/95 95/96 96/97 97/98 98/99 99/00 00/01
£39000 £43000 £53000 £52000 £41000 £35000 £33000 £31000
(Source: Farm Accounts Book)

Hamish, what exactly is the problem? The two sets of figures are
posted just above from here, together, not in isolation, and with
the source and nature of data identified.

No problem other than to extract meaning from your figures.

You have a average UK wage ..
^^^^
-income-, average income.

and you are comparing it with 'cash income' of a farm.

Perhaps as I am not a farmer I do not understand the exact meaning of the
term. But to me it begs questions. How many people are drawing a wage from
this and how many clever accountancy tricks have been applied to it?

Anyone with a managerial or entrepreneurial interest in the farm would
draw income from the cash income of the farm. Cash income is not easy
to trick with in accountancy, basically you are looking at the
difference between cash receipts and cash expenditures.

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:23:27 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
The avg income earner in UK had an income in 99/00
of £23400 (males)/£14400(females).
(Source: Survey of Personal Incomes, Board of Inland Revenue)

For comparison, avg farm income (Cash Income, rounded figures):
93/94 94/95 95/96 96/97 97/98 98/99 99/00 00/01
£39000 £43000 £53000 £52000 £41000 £35000 £33000 £31000
(Source: Farm Accounts Book)

Quite interesting that farm incomes £33000 are so close UK avg income
(i.e.
23400+14400) £37800. Though I doubt many others on slightly less than
the average income have quite such expensive to maintain properties as
the
average farming family.

Look up the definition of Cash Income.

So it seems farmers are even worse off than that. Bad news.

Michael Saunby

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:13:30 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
The avg income earner in UK had an income in 99/00
of £23400 (males)/£14400(females).
(Source: Survey of Personal Incomes, Board of Inland Revenue)

For comparison, avg farm income (Cash Income, rounded figures):
93/94 94/95 95/96 96/97 97/98 98/99 99/00 00/01
£39000 £43000 £53000 £52000 £41000 £35000 £33000 £31000
(Source: Farm Accounts Book)

Quite interesting that farm incomes £33000 are so close UK avg income
(i.e. 23400+14400) £37800. Though I doubt many others on slightly
less than the average income have quite such expensive to maintain
properties as the average farming family.

Look up the definition of Cash Income.

So it seems farmers are even worse off than that. Bad news.

The point is that the cost of maintenance of property relevant to the
farm business has already been deducted once in the calculation of
the Cash Income figure.

"Michael Saunby" wrote in message
...

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 19:23:27 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
The avg income earner in UK had an income in 99/00
of £23400 (males)/£14400(females).
(Source: Survey of Personal Incomes, Board of Inland Revenue)

For comparison, avg farm income (Cash Income, rounded figures):
93/94 94/95 95/96 96/97 97/98 98/99 99/00 00/01
£39000 £43000 £53000 £52000 £41000 £35000 £33000 £31000
(Source: Farm Accounts Book)

Quite interesting that farm incomes £33000 are so close UK avg income
(i.e.
23400+14400) £37800. Though I doubt many others on slightly less
than
the average income have quite such expensive to maintain properties as
the
average farming family.

Look up the definition of Cash Income.

So it seems farmers are even worse off than that. Bad news.

Only in time of war, crises and shortage has framing been a real money
making business. And most of the time the government regulates prices then.
Framers in the US Live poor and die rich. It takes most of a life time to
build and pay off a going farming operation if you don't have any bad
mistakes or really bad luck along the way.

Only in the years from 1941 to present have farmers done well as a group
wiht a combination of a price support system, a war to kick things off and
50 years of pretty damn good growth in the economy. The per unit cost of
farming have fallen like a rock since 1941 as have the prices.

That some one is not taking advantage of the cost reduction measures
available to farmer because some nervous nellies fear it might cause a bird
to die some day is a croc of shit. When you try to compete with countries
that use very modern tool at their disposal and the farmer invent a
substantial number of the nee inventions or third world nations that have
cheap labor and good land you are screwed unless the government pay you
enough to keep you in business.

We take risks that kill 1 in 1000 and don't think a thing about it but vCJD
that as about the same fatality rate in humans as lighting strikes has the
world up in arms. While people are still catching Salmonella, enteric
bacteria and rarely TB from unpasurized milk. That we are selling for only
political reasons not health ones.

For the most part the greens are naive puppets whose string are being pulled
by NGO's that have agendas that are more anti globule and socialist than
anti GM. But anit GM servers their needs to day giving them a seemingly good
front for what ever they have in mind for the human race but progress doest
seem part of it.
--
Gordon

Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:13:30 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
The avg income earner in UK had an income in 99/00
of £23400 (males)/£14400(females).
(Source: Survey of Personal Incomes, Board of Inland Revenue)

For comparison, avg farm income (Cash Income, rounded figures):
93/94 94/95 95/96 96/97 97/98 98/99 99/00 00/01
£39000 £43000 £53000 £52000 £41000 £35000 £33000 £31000
(Source: Farm Accounts Book)

Quite interesting that farm incomes £33000 are so close UK avg income
(i.e. 23400+14400) £37800. Though I doubt many others on slightly
less than the average income have quite such expensive to maintain
properties as the average farming family.

Look up the definition of Cash Income.

So it seems farmers are even worse off than that. Bad news.

The point is that the cost of maintenance of property relevant to the
farm business has already been deducted once in the calculation of
the Cash Income figure.


Untrue. The cost of maintenance of the residential building is not and may
not be deducted. Unlike many other workers farmers often have little
choice but to live in whatever accommodation comes with the job, no matter
how old it is, and how unsuitable it might be for their personal needs. In
rural areas of England development and modification of residential
properties is severely restricted due to a desire on the part of the public
to maintain the look of the countryside. This means that the farming
housing stock probably has an average age in some counties 100 years
greater than the national average for residential properties with the
higher costs that imposes. Heating costs will be higher, fuel choices
restricted (no mains gas), and local taxes and domestic water may even be
more expensive. Many farm houses will fall far short of what are now
considered normal standards, e.g. central heating, double glazing, cavity
wall insulation.

Many suppliers of services, even local authorities, claim that delivering
services to rural location is more expensive. e.g. Devon has the highest
water charges in the country despite having very high rainfall because the
costs of keeping all rivers and beaches clean is part of the costs that
must be recovered locally. Local taxes in Lambeth are lower.

Some might argue that farmers benefit from cheap housing, certainly if
cheap is taken to mean "sub standard", and certainly in most cases housing
that could not be let for a great deal, then yes they do; but I reckon many
pay very dearly indeed for what they actually get.

I'm not a farmer so my "wage" - salary in fact - does not include my
employers contribution to my pension and various other costs, about another
10% or so.

Michael Saunby

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:54:28 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:13:30 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
The avg income earner in UK had an income in 99/00
of £23400 (males)/£14400(females).
(Source: Survey of Personal Incomes, Board of Inland Revenue)

For comparison, avg farm income (Cash Income, rounded figures):
93/94 94/95 95/96 96/97 97/98 98/99 99/00 00/01
£39000 £43000 £53000 £52000 £41000 £35000 £33000 £31000
(Source: Farm Accounts Book)

Quite interesting that farm incomes £33000 are so close UK avg income
(i.e. 23400+14400) £37800. Though I doubt many others on slightly
less than the average income have quite such expensive to maintain
properties as the average farming family.

Look up the definition of Cash Income.

So it seems farmers are even worse off than that. Bad news.

The point is that the cost of maintenance of property relevant to the
farm business has already been deducted once in the calculation of
the Cash Income figure.


.. The cost of maintenance of the residential building is not and may
not be deducted. snip

Of course not, it is not relevant to the business.

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:54:28 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:13:30 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
The avg income earner in UK had an income in 99/00
of £23400 (males)/£14400(females).
(Source: Survey of Personal Incomes, Board of Inland Revenue)

For comparison, avg farm income (Cash Income, rounded
figures):
93/94 94/95 95/96 96/97 97/98 98/99 99/00
00/01
£39000 £43000 £53000 £52000 £41000 £35000 £33000 £31000
(Source: Farm Accounts Book)

Quite interesting that farm incomes £33000 are so close UK avg
income
(i.e. 23400+14400) £37800. Though I doubt many others on
slightly
less than the average income have quite such expensive to maintain
properties as the average farming family.

Look up the definition of Cash Income.

So it seems farmers are even worse off than that. Bad news.

The point is that the cost of maintenance of property relevant to the
farm business has already been deducted once in the calculation of
the Cash Income figure.


.. The cost of maintenance of the residential building is not and may
not be deducted. snip

Of course not, it is not relevant to the business.

It explains why folks need an income though. Otherwise we could all live
for free if all food and housing was provided by the state.

Michael Saunby

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:56:54 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:54:28 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 09:13:30 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
The avg income earner in UK had an income in 99/00
of £23400 (males)/£14400(females).
(Source: Survey of Personal Incomes, Board of Inland Revenue)

For comparison, avg farm income (Cash Income, rounded
figures):
93/94 94/95 95/96 96/97 97/98 98/99 99/00
00/01
£39000 £43000 £53000 £52000 £41000 £35000 £33000 £31000
(Source: Farm Accounts Book)

Quite interesting that farm incomes £33000 are so close UK avg
income
(i.e. 23400+14400) £37800. Though I doubt many others on
slightly
less than the average income have quite such expensive to maintain
properties as the average farming family.

Look up the definition of Cash Income.

So it seems farmers are even worse off than that. Bad news.

The point is that the cost of maintenance of property relevant to the
farm business has already been deducted once in the calculation of
the Cash Income figure.


.. The cost of maintenance of the residential building is not and may
not be deducted. snip

Of course not, it is not relevant to the business.

It explains why folks need an income though.

I think you can safely assume that folks interested in the topic
of this thread already has a good grasp of why folks need an
income.

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:56:54 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


.. The cost of maintenance of the residential building is not and
may
not be deducted. snip

Of course not, it is not relevant to the business.

It explains why folks need an income though.

I think you can safely assume that folks interested in the topic
of this thread already has a good grasp of why folks need an
income.


But you seem to assume that farmers take all possible profit from their
business as income, whereas the truth is that they will take at most as
much as the business can stand and exactly what they take, and in what
form, will depend on the current tax allowances, their living costs, and
their judgement as to whether to invest further in their business (new
machinery, more land), and many other things. One thing that will guide
all of this is what others are earning in other employment since that is a
fair approximation of what it actually costs to live in the UK.

Michael Saunby

Torsten Brinch wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 12:54:28 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:

.. The cost of maintenance of the residential building is not and
may
not be deducted. snip

Of course not, it is not relevant to the business.

then if it is a business income you are assessing, why are you comparing
with the income of employees. Farmers are not employees.
If you are looking at business profitability then use a business
profitability measure. I would recommend return on capital as a good one
to start with.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:53:58 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:56:54 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:

.. The cost of maintenance of the residential building
is not and may not be deducted [to calculate Cash Income].
snip

Of course not, it is not relevant to the business.

It explains why folks need an income though.

I think you can safely assume that folks interested in the topic
of this thread already has a good grasp of why folks need an
income.

.. [Farmers] will take at most as much as the business can stand
snip

Sure, or one should hope so, and Cash Income is a good estimator of
how much that could be.

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 14:53:58 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:56:54 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:

.. The cost of maintenance of the residential building
is not and may not be deducted [to calculate Cash Income].
snip

Of course not, it is not relevant to the business.

It explains why folks need an income though.

I think you can safely assume that folks interested in the topic
of this thread already has a good grasp of why folks need an
income.

.. [Farmers] will take at most as much as the business can stand
snip

Sure, or one should hope so, and Cash Income is a good estimator of
how much that could be.


Right, so if they take at most what the business can stand, and at least
what they need to live - what happens when what is needed to live exceeds
what the business can stand? Presumably a farming recession. Isn't that
what we now have?

Michael Saunby