On Wednesday, in article

"Dave Roberts" wrote:

In article , David G. Bell
writes
I've an idea of how much money a photographer can have tied up in
hardware.
Can vary enormously, the difference between David Bailey or Lord
Lichfield and myself would be quite large.

So is the difference between me and Ollie Walston


It's a couple of orders of magnitude less than the equivalent for
farming,
Again that could vary, Bailey probably has far more tied up in his
business than you. But if you want to use myself as an example then yes,
you are correct.

and quality camera gear seems to hold its value rather better
than farm machinery.
Not true, second-hand photographic equipment is in abundance. Prices are
very cheap. Now digital photography is taking over older film
cameras/darkroom/processing equipment is not sought after and you can
pick up some good deals.

I should have picked up on that, but I haven't though much about camera
priices for two or three years (examples following snipped).

Digital equipment will hold its value relatively well in the short term
but rapid developments in technology make it quickly outdated and
virtually worthless in the same way as computers and printers.

Fair point.


For that reason, I suspect it was easier for you to change direction.
Less of your wealth was tied up in a specific business.
Yes, I take your point now you have got to it

It is not impossible to get out of agriculture if you are unhappy with
it though is it?

Hindsight helps, of course, and getting out a couple of years ago would
be better than getting out now, but just imagine starting the process a
couple of months before FMD...




--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.

On Wednesday, in article
"Jim Webster" wrote:

Dave Roberts wrote in message
...
It is not impossible to get out of agriculture if you are unhappy
with
it though is it?

actually for some people it is. Thank god I am not in that particular
boat but I know a lot of tenants who cannot get out because the sale of
their assets might not cover their liabilities, and even if it did they
would not be left with enough to put down the deposit on a house.
Indeed some have run into the problem that they are volunterily homeless
and therefore will not be put on the waiting list for council housing. A
lot of these people are clinging on, hoping that things will pick up
(farming moves in cycles and in ten or so years things will inevitably
look different,).
We saw with fmd that a lot of dairy farmers did get out, because the
people restocking were buying cattle and suddenly cattle had a value
again.

I couldn't say what proportion of farmers are in this particular bind,
perhaps 10%, perhaps more, but to be honest it is guessing.

I think the FMD compensation will have had a big effect. It turned some
farmers from being cash-poor to being cash-rich, and that gave them a
chance to change. If they stayed in farming they could avoid some of
the usual complications of changing direction (as you were experiencing)
and the cash went to other farmers.

Other EU countries set up schemes to help farmers retire, but the
British government did not. I wonder if FMD had some of the same
effect.



--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.

Dave Roberts wrote in message
...
In article , Jim Webster
writes
Nevertheless the ball is in your court. If you don't like your
hours/pay/conditions then change it, whinging not achieve anything.

I take your point that it may take some time and effort but it is
achievable if you want to do it.

sure and we are doing it
If by 'we' you mean others here I have my doubts. I realise you have
developed a second string to your bow but I see little sign of it
elsewhere.

no, by we I was meaning Brenda and I, not quite the royal we, more my
partners and I.

What you have to remember is that most farmers are in their late 50s
anyway, their children are the second string to the bow. I know examples
where the farm tenancy, with the landlords approval, actually provides
storage space for the sons machinery for his contracting business. (I
don't know how this if shown in the rent)



interesting, each change produces less food but takes more money out
of
the government, or at least costs the government more.

But then we are merely reacting rationally to their policies.
Don't you mean EU money and policies ?

It was a point of yours I took on board previously.

sorry, in agriculture, Government and EU are pretty synonymous so tend
to be used interchangeably.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

Dave Roberts wrote in message
Surely voluntary bankruptcy is the only realistic option for a
business
in this sort of state. Hanging on to see if things are better in ten
years doesn't sound like a sound strategy.

Tough break I know...........


remember they are the children and grandchildren of people who did
exactly the same thing. You tend to think in long term cycles.
I wouldn't say they are right, but voluntary bankruptcy doesn't give
them a lot while survival would.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

Cheers
Dave



--

"David G. Bell" wrote in message
.. .
On Wednesday, in article
"Jim Webster" wrote:


I think the FMD compensation will have had a big effect. It turned
some
farmers from being cash-poor to being cash-rich, and that gave them a
chance to change. If they stayed in farming they could avoid some of
the usual complications of changing direction (as you were
experiencing)
and the cash went to other farmers.

Other EU countries set up schemes to help farmers retire, but the
British government did not. I wonder if FMD had some of the same
effect.

it as had a big effect in that regard and it remains to be seen what the
long term effects are. I am genuinely at a loss to predict what is
happening.

--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'





--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.

"Dave Roberts" wrote in message
...
In article , Michael Saunby
writes
Don't need one. I'm a grown-up.
Could've fooled me. I had enough of your childish slanging match.

Still think sparrows are lazy ?

Welcome to the killfile.

plonk

Cheers
Dave


Oohh, get her!

Michael Saunby

Dave Roberts wrote in message
...
In article , Jim Webster
writes
I feel you haven't really made that point choosing the examples you
did.

remember I am used to traditional heavy industry which still exists
round here.
That might be so but if you were trying to point out the difference
between self employed and employed people poor phone connection, lack
of
street lighting, poor electricity supply and poor roads were
surprising
examples to choose.

I'll not labour the point though.......

it was a different point that ran together with the first when there
should have been a definite gap between them.
.. There was an argument that we ought to put in a cash value for
lifestyle of living in nice rural area. Which is fair enough but you
should then put in a cost as well. The costs forced on the business by
poor phone connection, poor roads etc are significant.

--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

On Wednesday, in article

"Dave Roberts" wrote:

In article , Jim Webster
writes
actually for some people it is. Thank god I am not in that particular
boat but I know a lot of tenants who cannot get out because the sale of
their assets might not cover their liabilities, and even if it did they
would not be left with enough to put down the deposit on a house.
Indeed some have run into the problem that they are volunterily homeless
and therefore will not be put on the waiting list for council housing. A
lot of these people are clinging on, hoping that things will pick up
(farming moves in cycles and in ten or so years things will inevitably
look different,).
We saw with fmd that a lot of dairy farmers did get out, because the
people restocking were buying cattle and suddenly cattle had a value
again.

I couldn't say what proportion of farmers are in this particular bind,
perhaps 10%, perhaps more, but to be honest it is guessing.
Sounds like the decision to get out of farming might well be taken out
of their hands sooner or later.

Surely voluntary bankruptcy is the only realistic option for a business
in this sort of state. Hanging on to see if things are better in ten
years doesn't sound like a sound strategy.

Tough break I know...........

But look at the point Jim makes about being "voluntarily homeless".
Since the usual long-term farm tenancy automatically ceases in the event
of bankrupty, and the house is part of the farm...

This is not like somebody with a mortgage to pay. There are still some
limits on what the creditors can get their hands on.




--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.

In article , dave@studio-
33.co.uk says...


It is not impossible to get out of agriculture if you are unhappy with
it though is it?


'Impossible' is a strong word. Certainly for many tenant farmers it will
prove extra-ordinarily difficult *unless* their landlord has some
incentive to allow them to walk away. Many will have few if any
realisable assets available to them in order to pay off any dilapidations
claims.

If they are prudent or lucky enough to have another home set by for their
retirement then they may be in a position of being forced to sell in
order to pay tenants outgoer claims. AIUI this would then make them
'voluntarily homeless' and not be in a position to get public housing
provided to them.

Now, I accept, in many cases a landlord would be happy to obtain
possession at nil cost but thta cannot be guaranteed.
--
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

Digital equipment will hold its value relatively well in the short term
but rapid developments in technology make it quickly outdated and
virtually worthless in the same way as computers and printers.



I doubt that digital cameras will retain much value, at least the basic
models. I am already on my third and the older two are in the loft not worth
anyones use. One is too poor resolution and the other eats batteries.
A loft full of computers, video recorders, hi-fi all as good as new but
outdated. What do you do with it all??

"Dave Roberts" wrote in message
...
In article v6WS9.10888$4k6.957045@wards, Jill news@REMOVETHISkintalin
e.plus.com writes
This is not whinging but a statement of fact
snip sounded very much like whinging to me.
that is your perogative
but your snipping took it out of context - as here again
snip reinstated
This is not whinging but a statement of fact
and in answer to the previous post
you decided to snip
Certainly if you are unable to take breaks away that is a significant
drop.
Breaks away clear the mind and allow a detached view of work activities.
Not having them is likely to be bad for the individual and bad for the
business.
I also spoke of others in our area who are self employed but not in farming
It was from a small business point of view I was speaking
Probably many of the farmers locally do get to have more chance of a break
as there are other "ordinary" farmers about and their sons etc to cover for
them
Many small - very small businesses are not so fortunate



Shame you cannot read as well as take photographs
Please, leave the cheap shots alone, it says more about you than it does
me.
I spoke as I saw
and having reinstated your snipping
probably as others would see too



It is very true that we could do something else
all farmers could and be easily employable
being so multiskilled
There are plenty of jobs out there, I'd be surprised if anyone would
struggle that much.

very very few around here
Tescos; cleaning for hotels
and before you say move
someone has to live in the Highalnds and clean and sweep
for all the tourists that want to stay here
and by the same token they also have to provice things for tourists to do
because although some wish to only walk
the vast majority want something to do while they are up here
[ what they want to pay for it is another matter as it what it costs us to
provide it]

but then as many of the small farmers are those that look after their
environment
within the confines of available monies
what would all the "whingers" who want their pretty countryside do if we
all
left!!
Be spared from more whinging ?
thats a clever comment



The other reason we are still here is that we are trying to acheive
something lasting
both with the property itself so it goes into the next 500 years in
better
condition than when we took over
and with the poultry and waterfowl breeding
Whinging won't help you achieve that, get on with it if that's what you
want to do and be pleased and thankful that you are doing what you want
with your life.

as I said "whinging" is your word
all I was doing was partaking in a discussion about the benefits of taking a
break for small business people

Building anything to last 500 years is a tall order, I wish you luck
with that.

thank you - we fully intend to try

The most lucrative thing I cold do right now with our very high web
presence
would be to become a warehouse and sell other peoples products
that and search engine optimization for others

both of which would put me in the looney bin within 6 months
Emotive non-sense. You have the choice to do what you want with your
business and your life.
I have a choice - but I also know what it would do to me
not emotive
simple fact
Its one of the wonderful things about the human race
we are all different
you could not live my life
and I could not live the life of a warehouse owner without it doing my head
in


- and being able to take a break *would* be good for our health and our
business
Not sure how it would help your business. If the break would help your
negative outlook then by all means go for it.

I don;t have a negative outlook
but getting away from something you live 24 /7
does help you get a fresh perspective and gives you space to resolve
problems

Its is so intersting
your words show how little you understand
which is fine
but as you don't - it may be better not to comment until you have


From what you have said you are living in a nice rural area, you are
doing what you want for a living, you have an incredibly ambitious
target of building something to last 500 years there is the opportunity
to make your business lucrative

yes
but you won't take it because you think
it will bring on mental illness and you could do with a break.

where the hell do you get that from!!!!!!!!!!!!
if I did the things that could make lots of money we would have no time to
do the things that would be much more meaningful and satisfying
It would be nice to have built up the business to the stage of having
someone reliable that I was happy to leave the business with - as many
others in this area would
but until then we will plug on -
a break would be nice but not to the deteriment of what we are tryong to
achiece



I can't help but wonder if you are entirely suited to what you are
doing?

well isn't it a great thing you know not of what you speak
Yup I could do a lot of other things
as is evident from the posts on this newsgroup
so could many posters here from the agricultural community

It is interesting that the "farmers" both large and small here
can discourse on so many topics beyond their own field
unfortunately I am often doing other things while lurking here and rarely
get to get involved

but you it seems have a very limited scope of intellitect

maybe you should try farming for a while

--
Jill Bowis

http://www.poultryscotland.co.uk http://www.henhouses.co.uk
http://www.domesticducks.co.uk http://www.poultry-books.co.uk
http://www.kintaline.co.uk/cottage

Cheers
Dave

--

"Dave Roberts" wrote in message
...
In article , Jim Webster
writes
Nevertheless the ball is in your court. If you don't like your
hours/pay/conditions then change it, whinging not achieve anything.

I take your point that it may take some time and effort but it is
achievable if you want to do it.

sure and we are doing it
If by 'we' you mean others here I have my doubts. I realise you have
developed a second string to your bow but I see little sign of it
elsewhere.

well you see little then
for ourselves we have a number of strings
and so do many of the others in our area
who run small rural businesses

it is also blatently obvious from the posts on this group
that this is not uncommon

--
Jill Bowis

http://www.poultryscotland.co.uk http://www.henhouses.co.uk
http://www.domesticducks.co.uk http://www.poultry-books.co.uk
http://www.kintaline.co.uk/cottage

On Wednesday, in article
"Hamish Macbeth" wrote:


Digital equipment will hold its value relatively well in the short term
but rapid developments in technology make it quickly outdated and
virtually worthless in the same way as computers and printers.



I doubt that digital cameras will retain much value, at least the basic
models. I am already on my third and the older two are in the loft not worth
anyones use. One is too poor resolution and the other eats batteries.
A loft full of computers, video recorders, hi-fi all as good as new but
outdated. What do you do with it all??

I'm using a couple of speakers I bought in 1980 -- they have a better
bass response that any of the sub-woofer systems I've seen.

Some of the modern stuff is crap.


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.

""David G. Bell"" wrote in message
.. .
I'm using a couple of speakers I bought in 1980 -- they have a better
bass response that any of the sub-woofer systems I've seen.

Some of the modern stuff is crap.

As do I.

Possibly because people expect electronics to get smaller every year they
do not understand it does not apply to speakers.

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...
Dave Roberts wrote in message
...
It is very true that we could do something else
all farmers could and be easily employable
being so multiskilled
There are plenty of jobs out there, I'd be surprised if anyone would
struggle that much.

surprising how easily farmers do pick up jobs. I've never known one not
pick up a job. Interestingly they tend to be driving and delivery jobs
for firms who want someone they can leave to get on with it

A farmer can find a job because most folks know he knows how to work
and does't try to do get by doing as little as he can.

Gordon