On Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:23:51 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In article , Torsten Brinch
writes
There seems to be a more immediate problem in that I am posting to
ukba *now* using current standard terms for measures of Farm Income
and noone seems to know what I am talking about.

Not enough to argue it, anyway.
If your end objective is to convince us that farmers are well rewarded
why start from an obscure accounting system.

What you write illustrates the problem very well. What is suspicious
and obscure to you, is the accounting system and the measures of farm
income of the UK national farm income statistics.

In your example, a gross turnover of 290,000 puts the operation in the
100-200ha size (my guess) and hardly representative of an average farm
business.

Well, I did try to massage the example such that it should roughly
represent the average farm (~105 ha) in your national statistics
(excl. farms with less than 8 ESUs)

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

which part of the life style to you crave. Working outdoors whatever
the
weather, the 24 hrs on call, no weekends off, no paid holidays, no
sick
leave. No street lighting, roads poorly maintained, poor electricity
supply, poor telephone connection, the fact that if you want to go
anywhere at all there is no viable public transport and you have to
have
a car.

So why do you farm Jim?

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

"Jim Webster" wrote in message

Hamish Macbeth wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...
we would basically take the capital as the money we would get if we
cashed everything in. Value of house, land, livestock, machinery,
quota, feed and fertiliser in hand.
Fair enough, but I think you need to add to the cash return of the
bussiness the lifestyle value of living on a farm.
what cash value to you place on being on call 24hrs a day, living
within 200yds of a slurry pit and silage pit.

Someone really ought to market a deodorant for some of those country
smells :)

Also care has to be made not to double count the investment return.

If you had bought your farm on a loan and a capitol deposit then
repaid the loan out of the business returns then
you either have to compare the return on capitol on the original
deposit or count the growth in value and the loan paid off as part
of the return on capitol.

Also from the lifestyle aspects. Possibly not so significant in
cumbria, but what would it cost to rent a property like your
farmhouse if it was freestanding and not part of farm?

Actually all you have to do is look at the council tax band which does
contain an element of deduction for being part of a farm, but this is
often not enough to drop it a band.

If you start comparing different jobs I think you need to standback
and look at the lifestyle that an activity supports rather than a
single metric such as income as defined by the inland revenue.

which part of the life style to you crave. Working outdoors whatever
the weather,

Has a certain attraction - I tend not to see more than 30 minutes daylight
per day Mon-Fri for 3 months of the year.

the 24 hrs on call,

That's a real bugger. One in six is bad enough.

no weekends off,

I could live with that - _providing_ there were some sheep to be taken from
one valley to another. On foot, of course.

no paid holidays,

Counts for a lot of self-employed/contractors. 45% of the people working
where I do are in this 'boat' (although the agency staff now do get 'paid
leave', this was achieved by dropping the hourly rate by a commensurable
%age which was accrued to give an 'average' day's pay when they took a day
off).

no sick leave.

Ditto.

No street lighting, roads poorly maintained, poor
electricity supply, poor telephone connection,

From a certain PoV, the lack of street lighting is something I don't think
I'd miss. Less light pollution, more stars and other celestial objects to be
seen (assuming the clouds don't make an appearance).

As an aside, how 'bad' is your electric supply? I have fairly regular
brown-outs (enough to bring down a PC) and I've had a few total outages over
the past six months.

The poor telephone is a bugger for modems, though. I could live with a poor
telephone connection on my desk at work, though ;)

the fact that if you
want to go anywhere at all there is no viable public transport and
you have to have a car.

This is true of a many places outside major cities. Even between cities -
the last petrol shortage forced one of my collegues onto the train.
Stoke-on-Trent to Manchester. The connection is OK if you are going between
the major station(s), but the minor outside the city centres are poo - it
was taking him 2.5 hours each way for a 30 mile journey.

(AFAIA, Return On Average Capitol Employed is useful for comparing
performance of companies in the same or similar sectors. It isn't
particularly good for comparing 'chalk with cheese'.)

--
Yesterday is history,
Tomorrow is mystery,
The only time we really have is now,
Which is why it is called the present.

Hamish Macbeth wrote in message
...

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

.

which part of the life style to you crave. Working outdoors whatever
the
weather, the 24 hrs on call, no weekends off, no paid holidays, no
sick
leave. No street lighting, roads poorly maintained, poor electricity
supply, poor telephone connection, the fact that if you want to go
anywhere at all there is no viable public transport and you have to
have
a car.


I don't think I implied any craving? I was just suggesting that cash
income
from a farm business is probably a poor metric. To compare that with a
statistical average wage really does not produce a meaningful insight.

it was torsten who was keen on comparing it with a wage. I reckon that
to do such is a waste of time.

From this newsgroup it would appear that people given a choice of
careers
have chosen farming over others which would have given holidays and
sick
leave.

yes but remember, when we went into it there was more money and staff
and holidays etc were a definate possibility. The quality of life has
definately deteriorated over the last ten years.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

Old Codger wrote in message
news:vhIS9.10682$4k6.945006@wards...

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

which part of the life style to you crave. Working outdoors whatever
the
weather, the 24 hrs on call, no weekends off, no paid holidays, no
sick
leave. No street lighting, roads poorly maintained, poor electricity
supply, poor telephone connection, the fact that if you want to go
anywhere at all there is no viable public transport and you have to
have
a car.

So why do you farm Jim?

remember the money side of it, the holidays, time off etc is now far
worse than it was ten or twenty years ago. We have seen our quality of
life go backwards


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'


--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...


remember the money side of it, the holidays, time off etc is now far
worse than it was ten or twenty years ago. We have seen our quality of
life go backwards




Certainly if you are unable to take breaks away that is a significant
drop.
Breaks away clear the mind and allow a detached view of work activities.
Not having them is likely to be bad for the individual and bad for the
business.

Hamish Macbeth wrote in message
...

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...


remember the money side of it, the holidays, time off etc is now far
worse than it was ten or twenty years ago. We have seen our quality
of
life go backwards




Certainly if you are unable to take breaks away that is a
significant
drop.
Breaks away clear the mind and allow a detached view of work
activities.
Not having them is likely to be bad for the individual and bad for the
business.

Last year I got a five day family holiday which is what my sister and
her family could cover for me. Year before no holiday because of fmd,
but 2001 is not a year that should be included in anything, including
memory.
Prior to 2000 we had an employee and I could normally get two weeks but
remember this holiday was always in the UK and I phoned home every night
to check on details such as calvings, AI, whether anyone had phoned,
called needing me as Brenda and I are the entire management team. Also
because if something went wrong (like relief milker breaking a leg, or
having illness in his family or whatever) we had to be no more than 12
to 18 hours away from home.
Last time I went abroad would be 1984 before my fathers health collapsed
and he had to have a triple heart bypass.

Occassionally I will get a day down to a London meeting which means I go
down one day and back the next, which is a break of sorts.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...
Old Codger wrote in message
news:vhIS9.10682$4k6.945006@wards...

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

which part of the life style to you crave. Working outdoors whatever
the
weather, the 24 hrs on call, no weekends off, no paid holidays, no
sick
leave. No street lighting, roads poorly maintained, poor electricity
supply, poor telephone connection, the fact that if you want to go
anywhere at all there is no viable public transport and you have to
have
a car.

So why do you farm Jim?

remember the money side of it, the holidays, time off etc is now far
worse than it was ten or twenty years ago. We have seen our quality of
life go backwards



You can't compare running a business to working for wages. The guy
working for wages gets paid if the crops get planted or not. It's not
his problem if it doesn't raising or it rains too much. He is not
borrowing money at 12% on a enterprise that historically pays 8% or
less.

He also gets a dole when he is put out to pasture and the farmer has
the land to rent as well as the public dole. Many in my family stay on
the ranch until they can't physically tend the cattle. My grandmother
sold out when she was 90. Her brother at 86 his son about the same.

My dad retired from farming at 65 but took up part time commercial
fishing for 20 years and worked part time in a fishing tackle shop to
have something to do when he turned 70 and the income didn't count
against his social security.

The goal is to leave enough land to take care of your self in you old
age with enough left for you kids to build enough to take care of
their needs. So far it has worked pretty well for the last 129 years.

The changes that stared in the last half of the last century may make
this impossible. If we can keep producing ever cheaper crops we are
fast running out of ways to cut costs on much larger scales. In the US
we are reaching the limits of the willingness of lenders to risk money
on man for that much money. The exposure is too large. In the UK no
one seems to care. In the EU red tape, the real problem of physicals
problems of increasing the size of farming and high costs put them at
a considerable disadvantage. If the red tape was gone tomorrow the
problems world be only marginally better. In the developing world we
have lots of folks telling them how to do it but damn few getting
their hands dirty and showing them how to do it. China stands almost
alone wiht a modern ag policy and the political will to impalement it
and are putting their money where there mouth is.

If you want GM policies and crop developed by China continue as you
are and we will be buying what they have to sell. If you would rather
have them developed by more ethical and responsible nations get your
asses to work doing it.

The 30 years Norman Borlaug promised is running out and at 86 we
can't depend on him to continue to fight the fight to feed the tried
world when all the well meaning well fed rich donors that have no
first, second or third hand knowledge of agriculture decide that
GreenPiece et. al. are the authority because they make the most noise
and follow a course that is the exact opposite of what it takes to
feed the world in a sustainable manner.

If you goal is to control the population by setting lose the four
horsemen of the acropolises on the third world and rape and pillage
the third world of its soil, biodiversity, culture and independence
the greens are on the right track. Because they see no problem in
comparing farm profits to wages of service laborers. It show their
basic lack of understanding of agriculture. It is not a job you apply
for and get. It is an opportunity that come generaly only once or
twice in a lifetime and you do or you don't. Once you quite it is very
difficult to get started again with out a real sugar daddy.

If all the barbers in the UK vanished tomorrow it would be
inconvenient for a month or two until everyone figured out how to cut
each others hair but if all the farmer packed up and went to Canada,
the US. South America or Oz. They would be in a hell of a mess in 10
days putting food on the table. The food is not out there to do it and
if it was it would take 3 or 4 month to get a system working and the
price would be 4 or 5 time what it is now and the exporters would be
raking in the money.

Even Saudi Arabia is self sufficient in food.

Gordon

Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger

"Hamish Macbeth" wrote in message
...

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...


remember the money side of it, the holidays, time off etc is now far
worse than it was ten or twenty years ago. We have seen our quality of
life go backwards




Certainly if you are unable to take breaks away that is a significant
drop.
Breaks away clear the mind and allow a detached view of work activities.
Not having them is likely to be bad for the individual and bad for the
business.

We have not had a holiday for 9 years
We both left the farm together for 3 afternoons last year
He had about 4 days away to play trains -
I had 5 days off farm to run a stand at the Royal Highland show
other days at other events
and one night away at the Scottish National Poultry show which was no
working as such
Our "breaks" are when friends come to stay when we do what is essential and
enjoy having people about.
We cannot afford to have a full time employee and when we have tried it
cannot find anyone competent enough to leave the farm with.
What is the price of farm sitters these days ? - you would be looking at
doubling the costs of a standard holiday price.
It would be great to get away but the worry of what was going on at home
would be so great that I don't think it would be very relaxing
and as we don't really have slack times it would be very difficult to pick a
time.
But we are very small and involved business like many up here
Many of our firends also have not had "holidays" as others perceive them for
years too. A few manage to get away for the odd day or two in the winter if
their business is more summer based but few can afford to spend proper
holidays as a personal expense.

--
Jill Bowis

http://www.poultryscotland.co.uk http://www.henhouses.co.uk
http://www.domesticducks.co.uk http://www.poultry-books.co.uk
http://www.kintaline.co.uk/cottage

In article , Torsten Brinch
writes
On Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:23:51 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In article , Torsten Brinch
writes
There seems to be a more immediate problem in that I am posting to
ukba *now* using current standard terms for measures of Farm Income
and noone seems to know what I am talking about.

Not enough to argue it, anyway.
If your end objective is to convince us that farmers are well rewarded
why start from an obscure accounting system.

What you write illustrates the problem very well. What is suspicious
and obscure to you, is the accounting system and the measures of farm
income of the UK national farm income statistics.

Nuff said!

One does try to help:-)

More than 10% of my perceived income is spent on accountants fees!

One big annual complaint is the amount they try to transfer from
*revenue* spend to *drawings* in order to satisfy some disbelief that
anyone can live so cheaply.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

In article nWSS9.10766$4k6.955243@wards, Jill news@REMOVETHISkintalin
e.plus.com writes
We have not had a holiday for 9 years
Sorry but I have no sympathy for this whinging whatsoever. If you don't
like your lifestyle then change it !

I have been a self employed freelance for about 16 years, before that I
was a staff photographer on a daily paper.

When I was a staffer I worked most weekends and several nights each week
often not getting home until the small hours. It was a tough schedule
but at least I had holidays and time off during the week.

But as a freelance I had none of those benefits yet if anything the
schedule was more punishing. I had one holiday in those 16 years so your
life seems very luxurious in comparison.

When I started to get fed up with things I changed what I was doing,
simple as that.

Nobody is holding a gun at your head to make you do what you do and if
you don't like it then do something else. Pathetic whining will get you
nowhere.

Cheers
Dave

--

In article , Jim Webster
writes

Oh come off it Jim !

Working outdoors whatever the
weather,
Many would welcome that, change it for an office job if you don't like
it.

the 24 hrs on call,
I've been on 24 hour call for the vast majority of my working life, so
what ?

no weekends off,
I worked every weekend for years. When I got fed up with it I changed
what I do. I still work some weekend days. I'll be out working this
Sunday while your tucked up in the warm having your Sunday lunch.

no paid holidays,
Same for every self employed person in the country, why should you be
special.

no sick
leave.
Same for every self employed person in the country, why should you be
special.

No street lighting,
Is there a need for it ?

Are you seriously suggesting your farm would benefit from street
lighting ?

Many in urban areas complain of light pollution and would be much
happier without so much road/street lighting.

roads poorly maintained,
Try rural Lincolnshire !!!!

poor electricity
supply,
We are supplied by overhead lines. Regular power cuts although things
have improved lately. No big deal.

Don't forget you pay exactly the same for your electricity as folk in
urban areas yet it costs far more to deliver the supply to your home.
You're on a winner there, I feel quite grateful that in effect my supply
is being subsidised by town dwellers.

poor telephone connection,
I have the same moan, mainly that I can't get broad band. Normal service
here is acceptable.

Don't forget you pay exactly the same for your phone as folk in urban
areas yet it costs far more to deliver the service to your home. I feel
quite grateful that in effect my service is being subsidised by town
dwellers.

Same applies to postal services, this morning some poor sod had to drive
miles through ice and snow to drop my mail off and impressively he was
on time. Yet the price of a stamp to get a letter to my home is exactly
the same as a stamp to deliver a letter in the centre of a city/town but
the costs are far greater.

the fact that if you want to go
anywhere at all there is no viable public transport and you have to have
a car.
But than you do have the benefit of living in a beautiful part of the
world which many would be envious of.

I live where I do because I love it. Whinging about the disadvantages
isn't something that enters the equation. If I get fed up with it I
change it.

You have exactly the same option.

Cheers
Dave

--

Dave Roberts wrote in message
...
In article nWSS9.10766$4k6.955243@wards, Jill
news@REMOVETHISkintalin
e.plus.com writes
We have not had a holiday for 9 years
Sorry but I have no sympathy for this whinging whatsoever. If you
don't
like your lifestyle then change it !

most of us are.
We have rejigged the business twice in pretty major ways. Both times in
response to economic situations created entirely by government/EU
action. Both times it worked and in both cases was then rendered void by
new government action.

The problem is this takes time, and our third rejigging will probably
take another two or more years because agriculture works over that sort
of time scale.
Remember with agriculture that 'walking away tomorrow' can take over a
year, especially if, like most farmers, you have some tenancy
agreements.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

Dave Roberts wrote in message
...
In article , Jim Webster
writes

Oh come off it Jim !

Working outdoors whatever the
weather,
Many would welcome that, change it for an office job if you don't like
it.

I have an office job, we worked out Brenda and I spend 200hrs a year on
just dealing with livestock movement etc.


the 24 hrs on call,
I've been on 24 hour call for the vast majority of my working life, so
what ?

not usual for an employee. Remember torsten is comparing farmers with
employees. Certainly in ship building which is the common employer in
this town, if you are on call, you are amply rewarded.


no weekends off,
I worked every weekend for years. When I got fed up with it I changed
what I do. I still work some weekend days. I'll be out working this
Sunday while your tucked up in the warm having your Sunday lunch.

no paid holidays,
Same for every self employed person in the country, why should you be
special.

but remember you are just backing up my point with torsten. He is
comparing farmers with employees. Self employed do not compare with
employees. I've snipped the other self employed comparisons, I agree
with them, but it is torsten who doesn't appear to understand it.




roads poorly maintained,
Try rural Lincolnshire !!!!

poor electricity
supply,
We are supplied by overhead lines. Regular power cuts although things
have improved lately. No big deal.

remember we are talking about trying to put a cash figure on quality of
life, everyone puffs the up side, I just brought the down side in to
keep a sense of balance.

Don't forget you pay exactly the same for your electricity as folk in
urban areas yet it costs far more to deliver the supply to your home.
You're on a winner there, I feel quite grateful that in effect my
supply
is being subsidised by town dwellers.


not especially, I'm the one who gets nominal compensation for the hassle
I have farming round the poles that carry their electric to them. I
always reckoned that that cancels out.

poor telephone connection,
I have the same moan, mainly that I can't get broad band. Normal
service
here is acceptable.

Don't forget you pay exactly the same for your phone as folk in urban
areas yet it costs far more to deliver the service to your home. I
feel
quite grateful that in effect my service is being subsidised by town
dwellers.


no, because the majority of people who phone me are town dwellers. They
are merely paying to get national coverage.


Same applies to postal services, this morning some poor sod had to
drive
miles through ice and snow to drop my mail off and impressively he was
on time. Yet the price of a stamp to get a letter to my home is
exactly
the same as a stamp to deliver a letter in the centre of a city/town
but
the costs are far greater.

the fact that if you want to go
anywhere at all there is no viable public transport and you have to
have
a car.
But than you do have the benefit of living in a beautiful part of the
world which many would be envious of.

Yes, everyone fights for the right to live a mile from the countries
largest natural gas terminal, three miles from a ship yard building
nuclear submarines and in spite of that we have no usable public
transport.


I live where I do because I love it. Whinging about the disadvantages
isn't something that enters the equation. If I get fed up with it I
change it.

You have exactly the same option.

As I said, I was pointing out the down sides to balance up what everyone
hypes up.

--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

"Dave Roberts" wrote in message
...
In article nWSS9.10766$4k6.955243@wards, Jill news@REMOVETHISkintalin
e.plus.com writes
We have not had a holiday for 9 years
Sorry but I have no sympathy for this whinging whatsoever. If you don't
like your lifestyle then change it !

This is not whinging but a statement of fact
and in answer to the previous post
you decided to snip
Certainly if you are unable to take breaks away that is a significant
drop.
Breaks away clear the mind and allow a detached view of work activities.
Not having them is likely to be bad for the individual and bad for the
business.
I also spoke of others in our area who are self employed but not in farming
It was from a small business point of view I was speaking
Probably many of the farmers locally do get to have more chance of a break
as there are other "ordinary" farmers about and their sons etc to cover for
them
Many small - very small businesses are not so fortunate


I have been a self employed freelance for about 16 years, before that I
was a staff photographer on a daily paper.

When I was a staffer I worked most weekends and several nights each week
often not getting home until the small hours. It was a tough schedule
but at least I had holidays and time off during the week.

But as a freelance I had none of those benefits yet if anything the
schedule was more punishing. I had one holiday in those 16 years so your
life seems very luxurious in comparison.

When I started to get fed up with things I changed what I was doing,
simple as that.

Nobody is holding a gun at your head to make you do what you do and if
you don't like it then do something else. Pathetic whining will get you
nowhere.

Shame you cannot read as well as take photographs

It is very true that we could do something else
all farmers could and be easily employable
being so multiskilled
but then as many of the small farmers are those that look after their
environment
within the confines of available monies
what would all the "whingers" who want their pretty countryside do if we all
left!!

The other reason we are still here is that we are trying to acheive
something lasting
both with the property itself so it goes into the next 500 years in better
condition than when we took over
and with the poultry and waterfowl breeding

The most lucrative thing I cold do right now with our very high web presence
would be to become a warehouse and sell other peoples products
that and search engine optimization for others

both of which would put me in the looney bin within 6 months

However the poster to whom I was responding
Certainly if you are unable to take breaks away that is a significant
drop.
Breaks away clear the mind and allow a detached view of work activities.
Not having them is likely to be bad for the individual and bad for the
business.
does have a point
- and being able to take a break *would* be good for our health and our
business


--
Jill Bowis

http://www.poultryscotland.co.uk http://www.henhouses.co.uk
http://www.domesticducks.co.uk http://www.poultry-books.co.uk
http://www.kintaline.co.uk/cottage




Cheers
Dave

--