On 8 Jan 2003 01:41:17 -0800, (Gordon Couger)
wrote:

You can't compare running a business to working for wages.

I think you mean, they -can- be compared, but will then be found to
be different on a number of aspects. But both activities are to make
income to cover the living expenses and investments of people, and you
can very well compare the income generated by running a business to
the income generated by working for a wage.

The UK farm economy statisticians do calculate several measures of
farm income, e.g. Net Farm Income and Cash Income. The statisticians
say: for comparisons with the income of employees in other sectors of
society, do not use the Net Farm Income figures, use the Cash Income
figures.

Avg. annual Cash Income per farm in UK was about £55000 in 1995,
decreased to about £30000 during the most recent years up to 2002.

For comparison, the avg income earner in UK has had a total income
of between £20000 and £15000 per year during the same period.

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On 8 Jan 2003 01:41:17 -0800, (Gordon Couger)
wrote:

You can't compare running a business to working for wages.

I think you mean, they -can- be compared, but will then be found to
be different on a number of aspects. But both activities are to make
income to cover the living expenses and investments of people, and you
can very well compare the income generated by running a business to
the income generated by working for a wage.

The UK farm economy statisticians do calculate several measures of
farm income, e.g. Net Farm Income and Cash Income. The statisticians
say: for comparisons with the income of employees in other sectors of
society, do not use the Net Farm Income figures, use the Cash Income
figures.

Avg. annual Cash Income per farm in UK was about £55000 in 1995,
decreased to about £30000 during the most recent years up to 2002.

For comparison, the avg income earner in UK has had a total income
of between £20000 and £15000 per year during the same period.


You're still quoting for individuals, not household incomes. Many, perhaps
most, farms have 2 or more family members working for the farm business.

Michael Saunby

On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:06:57 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On 8 Jan 2003 01:41:17 -0800, (Gordon Couger)
wrote:

You can't compare running a business to working for wages.

I think you mean, they -can- be compared, but will then be found to
be different on a number of aspects. But both activities are to make
income to cover the living expenses and investments of people, and you
can very well compare the income generated by running a business to
the income generated by working for a wage.

The UK farm economy statisticians do calculate several measures of
farm income, e.g. Net Farm Income and Cash Income. The statisticians
say: for comparisons with the income of employees in other sectors of
society, do not use the Net Farm Income figures, use the Cash Income
figures.

Avg. annual Cash Income per farm in UK was about £55000 in 1995,
decreased to about £30000 during the most recent years up to 2002.

For comparison, the avg income earner in UK has had a total income
of between £20000 and £15000 per year during the same period.


.. household incomes.

For comparison, the avg household in UK has had an income of between
£19000 and £23000 per year during the same period.

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:06:57 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On 8 Jan 2003 01:41:17 -0800, (Gordon Couger)
wrote:

You can't compare running a business to working for wages.

I think you mean, they -can- be compared, but will then be found to
be different on a number of aspects. But both activities are to make
income to cover the living expenses and investments of people, and you
can very well compare the income generated by running a business to
the income generated by working for a wage.

The UK farm economy statisticians do calculate several measures of
farm income, e.g. Net Farm Income and Cash Income. The statisticians
say: for comparisons with the income of employees in other sectors of
society, do not use the Net Farm Income figures, use the Cash Income
figures.

Avg. annual Cash Income per farm in UK was about £55000 in 1995,
decreased to about £30000 during the most recent years up to 2002.

For comparison, the avg income earner in UK has had a total income
of between £20000 and £15000 per year during the same period.


.. household incomes.

For comparison, the avg household in UK has had an income of between
£19000 and £23000 per year during the same period.

Sure, when you include households with NO income earner and single parent
households. I suppose you could allow for this if the average cash income
per farm includes all small holdings and other farms that generated little
or no income.

The average household income where one or more adults is working is going
to be roughly £35,000. In household more like family farms where two
adults are working it will be rather more than that.

Michael Saunby

On Wednesday, in article

"Dave Roberts" wrote:

In article nWSS9.10766$4k6.955243@wards, Jill news@REMOVETHISkintalin
e.plus.com writes
We have not had a holiday for 9 years
Sorry but I have no sympathy for this whinging whatsoever. If you don't
like your lifestyle then change it !

I have been a self employed freelance for about 16 years, before that I
was a staff photographer on a daily paper.

When I was a staffer I worked most weekends and several nights each week
often not getting home until the small hours. It was a tough schedule
but at least I had holidays and time off during the week.

But as a freelance I had none of those benefits yet if anything the
schedule was more punishing. I had one holiday in those 16 years so your
life seems very luxurious in comparison.

When I started to get fed up with things I changed what I was doing,
simple as that.

Nobody is holding a gun at your head to make you do what you do and if
you don't like it then do something else. Pathetic whining will get you
nowhere.

I've an idea of how much money a photographer can have tied up in
hardware.

It's a couple of orders of magnitude less than the equivalent for
farming, and quality camera gear seems to hold its value rather better
than farm machinery.

For that reason, I suspect it was easier for you to change direction.
Less of your wealth was tied up in a specific business.


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.

Torsten Brinch wrote in message
...
On 8 Jan 2003 01:41:17 -0800, (Gordon Couger)
wrote:

You can't compare running a business to working for wages.

I think you mean, they -can- be compared, but will then be found to
be different on a number of aspects. But both activities are to make
income to cover the living expenses and investments of people, and you
can very well compare the income generated by running a business to
the income generated by working for a wage.

The UK farm economy statisticians do calculate several measures of
farm income, e.g. Net Farm Income and Cash Income. The statisticians
say: for comparisons with the income of employees in other sectors of
society, do not use the Net Farm Income figures, use the Cash Income
figures.

Avg. annual Cash Income per farm in UK was about £55000 in 1995,
decreased to about £30000 during the most recent years up to 2002.

For comparison, the avg income earner in UK has had a total income
of between £20000 and £15000 per year during the same period.

just because you keep repeating figures does not make a comparison
between them any more valid.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:24:08 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:06:57 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On 8 Jan 2003 01:41:17 -0800, (Gordon Couger)
wrote:

You can't compare running a business to working for wages.

I think you mean, they -can- be compared, but will then be found to
be different on a number of aspects. But both activities are to make
income to cover the living expenses and investments of people, and you
can very well compare the income generated by running a business to
the income generated by working for a wage.

The UK farm economy statisticians do calculate several measures of
farm income, e.g. Net Farm Income and Cash Income. The statisticians
say: for comparisons with the income of employees in other sectors of
society, do not use the Net Farm Income figures, use the Cash Income
figures.

Avg. annual Cash Income per farm in UK was about £55000 in 1995,
decreased to about £30000 during the most recent years up to 2002.

For comparison, the avg income earner in UK has had a total income
of between £20000 and £15000 per year during the same period.


.. household incomes.

For comparison, the avg household in UK has had an income of between
£19000 and £23000 per year during the same period.

Sure, when you include households with NO income earner and single parent
households. I suppose you could allow for this if the average cash income
per farm includes all small holdings and other farms that generated little
or no income.

There is no good reason to include non-commercial farms, their Cash
income has obviously little or nothing to do with the household
income.

The average household income where one or more adults is working is going
to be roughly £35,000. In household more like family farms where two
adults are working it will be rather more than that.

If household income comparison is what you are interested in, the
average farm household will have additional and non-farm sources of
income, typically brought in by the spouse having a job outside the
farm. The data I've seen indicates that it would be on avg. about
£5000 that is brought in this way.

In article , Jim Webster
writes
most of us are.
We have rejigged the business twice in pretty major ways. Both times in
response to economic situations created entirely by government/EU
action. Both times it worked and in both cases was then rendered void by
new government action.

The problem is this takes time, and our third rejigging will probably
take another two or more years because agriculture works over that sort
of time scale.
Remember with agriculture that 'walking away tomorrow' can take over a
year, especially if, like most farmers, you have some tenancy
agreements.
Nevertheless the ball is in your court. If you don't like your
hours/pay/conditions then change it, whinging not achieve anything.

I take your point that it may take some time and effort but it is
achievable if you want to do it.

Cheers
Dave

--

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:24:08 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 15:06:57 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On 8 Jan 2003 01:41:17 -0800, (Gordon Couger)
wrote:

You can't compare running a business to working for wages.

I think you mean, they -can- be compared, but will then be found to
be different on a number of aspects. But both activities are to
make
income to cover the living expenses and investments of people, and
you
can very well compare the income generated by running a business to
the income generated by working for a wage.

The UK farm economy statisticians do calculate several measures of
farm income, e.g. Net Farm Income and Cash Income. The
statisticians
say: for comparisons with the income of employees in other sectors
of
society, do not use the Net Farm Income figures, use the Cash
Income
figures.

Avg. annual Cash Income per farm in UK was about £55000 in 1995,
decreased to about £30000 during the most recent years up to 2002.

For comparison, the avg income earner in UK has had a total income
of between £20000 and £15000 per year during the same period.


.. household incomes.

For comparison, the avg household in UK has had an income of between
£19000 and £23000 per year during the same period.

Sure, when you include households with NO income earner and single
parent
households. I suppose you could allow for this if the average cash
income
per farm includes all small holdings and other farms that generated
little
or no income.

There is no good reason to include non-commercial farms, their Cash
income has obviously little or nothing to do with the household
income.

The average household income where one or more adults is working is
going
to be roughly £35,000. In household more like family farms where two
adults are working it will be rather more than that.

If household income comparison is what you are interested in,

Honest comparison is, I believe, what folks would like to see,

the
average farm household will have additional and non-farm sources of
income, typically brought in by the spouse having a job outside the
farm. The data I've seen indicates that it would be on avg. about
£5000 that is brought in this way.

Perhaps, when other employment is available, and only when farm incomes are
low!! What would be the point of doing another job that only brings in a
few thousand if farm incomes are more than adequate - which appears to be
what you are trying to suggest - you're wrong, I'm sure, but you do seem
to try to suggest that.

Michael Saunby

In article v6WS9.10888$4k6.957045@wards, Jill news@REMOVETHISkintalin
e.plus.com writes
This is not whinging but a statement of fact
snip sounded very much like whinging to me.

Shame you cannot read as well as take photographs
Please, leave the cheap shots alone, it says more about you than it does
me.


It is very true that we could do something else
all farmers could and be easily employable
being so multiskilled
There are plenty of jobs out there, I'd be surprised if anyone would
struggle that much.

but then as many of the small farmers are those that look after their
environment
within the confines of available monies
what would all the "whingers" who want their pretty countryside do if we all
left!!
Be spared from more whinging ?


The other reason we are still here is that we are trying to acheive
something lasting
both with the property itself so it goes into the next 500 years in better
condition than when we took over
and with the poultry and waterfowl breeding
Whinging won't help you achieve that, get on with it if that's what you
want to do and be pleased and thankful that you are doing what you want
with your life.

Building anything to last 500 years is a tall order, I wish you luck
with that.


The most lucrative thing I cold do right now with our very high web presence
would be to become a warehouse and sell other peoples products
that and search engine optimization for others

both of which would put me in the looney bin within 6 months
Emotive non-sense. You have the choice to do what you want with your
business and your life.

- and being able to take a break *would* be good for our health and our
business
Not sure how it would help your business. If the break would help your
negative outlook then by all means go for it.

From what you have said you are living in a nice rural area, you are
doing what you want for a living, you have an incredibly ambitious
target of building something to last 500 years, there is the opportunity
to make your business lucrative but you won't take it because you think
it will bring on mental illness and you could do with a break.

I can't help but wonder if you are entirely suited to what you are
doing?

Cheers
Dave

--

In article , Jim Webster
writes
I have an office job, we worked out Brenda and I spend 200hrs a year on
just dealing with livestock movement etc.
Which is not even a couple of hours a week each.

not usual for an employee. Remember torsten is comparing farmers with
employees. Certainly in ship building which is the common employer in
this town, if you are on call, you are amply rewarded.
Not usual but not uncommon.

but remember you are just backing up my point with torsten. He is
comparing farmers with employees. Self employed do not compare with
employees. I've snipped the other self employed comparisons, I agree
with them, but it is torsten who doesn't appear to understand it.
I feel you haven't really made that point choosing the examples you did.

Cheers
Dave

--

On Wednesday, in article

"Michael Saunby" wrote:

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On 8 Jan 2003 01:41:17 -0800, (Gordon Couger)
wrote:

You can't compare running a business to working for wages.

I think you mean, they -can- be compared, but will then be found to
be different on a number of aspects. But both activities are to make
income to cover the living expenses and investments of people, and you
can very well compare the income generated by running a business to
the income generated by working for a wage.

The UK farm economy statisticians do calculate several measures of
farm income, e.g. Net Farm Income and Cash Income. The statisticians
say: for comparisons with the income of employees in other sectors of
society, do not use the Net Farm Income figures, use the Cash Income
figures.

Avg. annual Cash Income per farm in UK was about £55000 in 1995,
decreased to about £30000 during the most recent years up to 2002.

For comparison, the avg income earner in UK has had a total income
of between £20000 and £15000 per year during the same period.


You're still quoting for individuals, not household incomes. Many, perhaps
most, farms have 2 or more family members working for the farm business.

That's only one of the distortions. Torsten has been rather vague about
the relation between average cash income and the other measures of farm
business size. I suspect that the known differences between large and
small farms, where the large farms spend less per acre for the same
income, don't just affect "Net Farm Income".

Elsethread, Jim-and-Brenda also mention paid holidays. How does one
calculate an allowance for that? It's not just the difference between
GBP 300 per week for 50 weeks and GBP 288 for 52 weeks, there is an
opportunity cost for not having those two weeks. And then there are the
longer working hours per week, and the need to check livestock daily.

The actual figures get fuzzy, because a farmer might find the time to do
some DIY, but if Torsten wants a price for everything, he should set a
price on what the farmer has to forgo. How much does a painter and
decorator cost per hour?

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid
of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?"
From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross.

"Dave Roberts" wrote in message
...

no weekends off,
I worked every weekend for years.

I really do believe that for once you're telling the truth here. What is
it they say about "all work and no play..."?

Michael Saunby

On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 16:21:59 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
news

If household income comparison is what you are interested in,

Honest comparison is, I believe, what folks would like to see,

the
average farm household will have additional and non-farm sources of
income, typically brought in by the spouse having a job outside the
farm. The data I've seen indicates that it would be on avg. about
£5000 that is brought in this way.

Perhaps, when other employment is available, and only when farm incomes are
low!!

We are talking about averages.

NB, a correction: I took the figure £5000 from memory.
Now looking at data, the additional non-farm income brought
in to the average farm household would be more like £10000.

""David G. Bell"" wrote in message
.. .
On Wednesday, in article

"Michael Saunby" wrote:

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On 8 Jan 2003 01:41:17 -0800, (Gordon Couger)
wrote:

You can't compare running a business to working for wages.

I think you mean, they -can- be compared, but will then be found to
be different on a number of aspects. But both activities are to make
income to cover the living expenses and investments of people, and
you
can very well compare the income generated by running a business to
the income generated by working for a wage.

The UK farm economy statisticians do calculate several measures of
farm income, e.g. Net Farm Income and Cash Income. The statisticians
say: for comparisons with the income of employees in other sectors of
society, do not use the Net Farm Income figures, use the Cash Income
figures.

Avg. annual Cash Income per farm in UK was about £55000 in 1995,
decreased to about £30000 during the most recent years up to 2002.

For comparison, the avg income earner in UK has had a total income
of between £20000 and £15000 per year during the same period.


You're still quoting for individuals, not household incomes. Many,
perhaps
most, farms have 2 or more family members working for the farm
business.

That's only one of the distortions. Torsten has been rather vague about
the relation between average cash income and the other measures of farm
business size. I suspect that the known differences between large and
small farms, where the large farms spend less per acre for the same
income, don't just affect "Net Farm Income".

Isn't it also the case that something like 80% of subsidy is paid to 20% of
farm businesses. So the "average" farm actually receives a lot less than
the average subsidy. However the subsidy largely reflects production which
suggests that 20% of our farms - most likely the really big ones - produce
most and even without subsidy will thrive. Those farms that are genuinely
being kept afloat by subsidy probably only get a very small proportion.
This is always the case though, even with listed companies the best
performing are often an order of magnitude more productive than the
average, yet they all receive tax relief and various incentives to create
jobs, etc.


Elsethread, Jim-and-Brenda also mention paid holidays. How does one
calculate an allowance for that? It's not just the difference between
GBP 300 per week for 50 weeks and GBP 288 for 52 weeks, there is an
opportunity cost for not having those two weeks. And then there are the
longer working hours per week, and the need to check livestock daily.

When times were good and farmers did take holidays they employed people to
do the work while they were away. Many business don't need to do this.
Then again those businesses that do really provide 24hr a day cover 7 days
a week such as fire services, employ 4 or 5 people for every post!


The actual figures get fuzzy, because a farmer might find the time to do
some DIY, but if Torsten wants a price for everything, he should set a
price on what the farmer has to forgo. How much does a painter and
decorator cost per hour?


Depends how long you're prepared to wait for the job to be started and when
it might eventually be completed.

Michael Saunby