On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:19:58 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

More than 10% of my perceived income is spent on accountants fees!

One big annual complaint is the amount they try to transfer from
*revenue* spend to *drawings* in order to satisfy some disbelief that
anyone can live so cheaply.

How cheaply can you live where you are? For comparison in some areas
of Liverpool or Birmingham more than half of households have managed
to cut their total annual living expenses to less than £10,000.


Cash Income distribution, all farms
HHHHHHHHHHHH £0 (12%)
HHHHHHHHHH £0-£5,000 (10%)
HHHHHHHHHH £5,000-£10,000 (10%)
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH £10,000-£20,000 (20%)
HHHHHHHHHHHHHH £20,000-£30,000 (14%)
HHHHHHHHH £30,000-£40,000 (9%)
HHHHHHH £40,000-£50,000 (7%)
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH £50,000+ (19%)
Average Cash Income £31,462 per farm

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:19:58 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

More than 10% of my perceived income is spent on accountants fees!

One big annual complaint is the amount they try to transfer from
*revenue* spend to *drawings* in order to satisfy some disbelief that
anyone can live so cheaply.

How cheaply can you live where you are? For comparison in some areas
of Liverpool or Birmingham more than half of households have managed
to cut their total annual living expenses to less than £10,000.


I imagine that all such households are heavily subsidised, e.g. though
discounted rent and access to many services, e.g. public transport at zero
or very low cost. If you want genuinely low cost living then it might be
better to consider pensioners, but even they benefit from discounted travel
despite not actually needing to travel to work.

Michael Saunby

In article y%0T9.3530$xE1.524919@stones, Jill news@REMOVETHISkintalin
e.plus.com writes
well you see little then
for ourselves we have a number of strings
But then I wouldn't class you as a farmer. A look at your website
suggests you are more geared towards tourism or are model trains a crop
now ?

and so do many of the others in our area
who run small rural businesses
I was referring to farmers.


it is also blatently obvious from the posts on this group
that this is not uncommon
Do try and keep up at the back.

Cheers
Dave

--

In article , Jim Webster
writes

Dave Roberts wrote in message
Surely voluntary bankruptcy is the only realistic option for a
business
in this sort of state. Hanging on to see if things are better in ten
years doesn't sound like a sound strategy.

Tough break I know...........


remember they are the children and grandchildren of people who did
exactly the same thing. You tend to think in long term cycles.
I wouldn't say they are right, but voluntary bankruptcy doesn't give
them a lot while survival would.

I would have thought that remains to be seen. It could be a case that it
would be better to cut your losses.

Only time will tell, Beckett and Haskins have been making fairly upbeat
noises but then they would do wouldn't they ?

Getting out of farming at the right time would appear to be a tough
judgement to make.

Cheers
Dave

--

In article , David G. Bell
writes
On Wednesday, in article

"Dave Roberts" wrote:
Tough break I know...........

But look at the point Jim makes about being "voluntarily homeless".
Since the usual long-term farm tenancy automatically ceases in the event
of bankrupty, and the house is part of the farm...
Which is why I said tough break.

The only way out would seem to be a move to rented accommodation and
voluntary redundancy with a short term future at the mercy of the
benefit system.

Doesn't come much tougher but to gamble on a business in a poor
financial state with an uncertain short term future improving may not
turn out to be the best option.

Cheers
Dave

--

In article , David G. Bell
writes
Hindsight helps, of course, and getting out a couple of years ago would
be better than getting out now, but just imagine starting the process a
couple of months before FMD...

I think this boils down to a question of timing to maximise your exit
point.

Nevertheless I still maintain it is not impossible to get out of
farming, or change direction, but would concede that to do so is not
easy to time perfectly.

Cheers
Dave

--

In article , Hamish Macbeth Hamish@bu
ddenbrooks.fsnet.co.uk writes


Digital equipment will hold its value relatively well in the short term
but rapid developments in technology make it quickly outdated and
virtually worthless in the same way as computers and printers.



I doubt that digital cameras will retain much value, at least the basic
models. I am already on my third and the older two are in the loft not worth
anyones use.
I have a mate (pro photog) who changes all his photo/computer gear every
year no matter what condition it is in. He still loses money on it
obviously but it is not too bad and the upside is there are few if any
repair bills to pay.

Handy bloke to know actually as I have bought a few bargains from him
over the years. He offered me a 2.0 Pentium 4, 512 mg ram, 80 Gb hard
drive, CD Rom writer, DVD player with 17 inch monitor for 400 quid inc
VAT just before Christmas. Kicking myself for not getting it really but
I didn't really have the spare cash at the time.

One is too poor resolution and the other eats batteries.
A loft full of computers, video recorders, hi-fi all as good as new but
outdated. What do you do with it all??
Don't know but I suffer with the same problem

Cheers
Dave

--

"Dave Roberts" wrote in message
...
In article y%0T9.3530$xE1.524919@stones, Jill news@REMOVETHISkintalin
e.plus.com writes
well you see little then
for ourselves we have a number of strings
But then I wouldn't class you as a farmer. A look at your website
suggests you are more geared towards tourism or are model trains a crop
now ?

well that shows how little you read
- yes we have opened our breeding park to visitors
it would be stupid not to living where we do
but the income from tourists is minor
as we do not present ourselves as a "tourist Attraction" with all that
entails
- if we did we would be charging £5 plus as entry fee and the whole place
would be rated
However as many of the "tourists" are also potential customers
it is much more that we are open in the same way as a shop would be so
people can see what we do and whether they are interested

as to the model trains -
crumbs you are clutching at straws
- the site states that this is TIms hobby for petes sake
-

The rest of what we do is much more fully detailed on the site
- breeding and rearing poultry and waterfowl
- selling housing for same
- growing garden plants

We also have a flock of Jacob sheep

and so do many of the others in our area
who run small rural businesses
I was referring to farmers.

they are rural businesses
and many folk up here have farms but also other businesses
some associated and others less so



it is also blatently obvious from the posts on this group
that this is not uncommon
Do try and keep up at the back.
que?

It is obvious from posts over the years that there are a number of farmers
here who also have other strings to their bow

by the way what is your definition of a farmer and / or farming??

--
Jill Bowis

http://www.poultryscotland.co.uk http://www.henhouses.co.uk
http://www.domesticducks.co.uk http://www.poultry-books.co.uk
http://www.kintaline.co.uk/cottage

Cheers
Dave

--

In article bZ0T9.3529$xE1.524684@stones, Jill news@REMOVETHISkintalin
e.plus.com writes

"Dave Roberts" wrote in message
...
there is the opportunity
to make your business lucrative

yes
but you won't take it because you think
it will bring on mental illness and you could do with a break.

where the hell do you get that from!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where you said.......
both of which would put me in the looney bin within 6 months
Not many people in 'looney bins' without mental illness you know.

but you it seems have a very limited scope of intellitect
sigh Back to the cheap shots.........

Looking back over the few months it seems you have contributed little
more to this group than whinging about the weather and lack of time off.

Please feel free carry on with your whinging and for my part I'll go
back to ignoring you.

Cheers
Dave



--

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message

snip
Cash Income distribution, all farms
HHHHHHHHHHHH £0 (12%)
HHHHHHHHHH £0-£5,000 (10%)
HHHHHHHHHH £5,000-£10,000 (10%)
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH £10,000-£20,000 (20%)
HHHHHHHHHHHHHH £20,000-£30,000 (14%)
HHHHHHHHH £30,000-£40,000 (9%)
HHHHHHH £40,000-£50,000 (7%)
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH £50,000+ (19%)
Average Cash Income £31,462 per farm

I appear to have a problem with the summation of the %ages - they add up to
101.

Sorry if I've missed something as I haven't been paying that much attention
to this thread, but...

Are there any actual absolute numbers rather than %ages?

Is there any finer detail on the £50k+ section?

--
Yesterday is history,
Tomorrow is mystery,
The only time we really have is now,
Which is why it is called the present.

In article , Jim Webster
writes
The costs forced on the business by
poor phone connection, poor roads etc are significant.

Just how bad is your phone connection !

or come to that roads.

I'm not trying to be awkward here, just wondering how these represent
'significant' business costs.

I have a normal phone connection that is pretty good on the whole.
Haven't lost use of it in six years anyway.

In my business broadband would be very useful for sending digital
pictures to clients, it would also improve the service I could give
them. Lack of it is a nuisance but it would cost more to have it. Not
sure that it would be cheaper than using the post so can't say lack of
it causes me a significant business cost.

Roads around here are pretty bad. Single track roads in and out of the
village which aren't too bad though keeping your car clean is
impossible. As soon as you get on to the dual track roads you have to
run the gauntlet of folk driving in the middle of the road because the
edges are in a dreadful state, all potholes.

Again it doesn't cause me a significant business expense.

Cheers
Dave

--
Cheers
Dave

On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:20:46 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:19:58 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

More than 10% of my perceived income is spent on accountants fees!

One big annual complaint is the amount they try to transfer from
*revenue* spend to *drawings* in order to satisfy some disbelief that
anyone can live so cheaply.

How cheaply can you live where you are? For comparison in some areas
of Liverpool or Birmingham more than half of households have managed
to cut their total annual living expenses to less than £10,000.


I imagine that all such households are heavily subsidised snip

Quantify your claim.

"Dave Roberts" wrote in message
...
In article bZ0T9.3529$xE1.524684@stones, Jill news@REMOVETHISkintalin
e.plus.com writes

"Dave Roberts" wrote in message
...
there is the opportunity
to make your business lucrative

yes
but you won't take it because you think
it will bring on mental illness and you could do with a break.

where the hell do you get that from!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where you said.......
both of which would put me in the looney bin within 6 months
Not many people in 'looney bins' without mental illness you know.

oh crumbs can't you see a turn of phrase when you see one
not everyone would enjoy doing everyone elses job
although we may be capable of it

I have not said I don't want to be doing what we do - far from it
most of the time its very satisfying
much of the rest of the time we are simply so busy we don't get a chance to
think about it too much

but on the other side
it is not all roses either
but according to you pointing out things or stating ones facts
is whinging
Its not at all - many people have a job they enjoy mostly but have problems
with parts of it
But you condemn all farmers as whingers
ho hum


--
Jill Bowis

http://www.poultryscotland.co.uk http://www.henhouses.co.uk
http://www.domesticducks.co.uk http://www.poultry-books.co.uk
http://www.kintaline.co.uk/cottage

On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:14:02 -0000, "Bootlaces" wrote:

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message

snip
Cash Income distribution, all farms
HHHHHHHHHHHH £0 (12%)
HHHHHHHHHH £0-£5,000 (10%)
HHHHHHHHHH £5,000-£10,000 (10%)
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH £10,000-£20,000 (20%)
HHHHHHHHHHHHHH £20,000-£30,000 (14%)
HHHHHHHHH £30,000-£40,000 (9%)
HHHHHHH £40,000-£50,000 (7%)
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH £50,000+ (19%)
Average Cash Income £31,462 per farm

I appear to have a problem with the summation of the %ages - they add up to
101.

The source does make caveats for rounding errors.

Sorry if I've missed something as I haven't been paying that much attention
to this thread, but...

Are there any actual absolute numbers rather than %ages?

Yes, certainly, but not so directly, assuming it is the
%ages above you want to translate into actual numbers of farms.

However the sample represents all farms above 8 ESUs
in England and Wales. That would be about 100,000 farms.
(there are ~111,000 8ESU farms in Great Britain)

Is there any finer detail on the £50k+ section?

Not in the sense of detail I think you mean to imply
(e.g. sliced into 50-75k/75-100k/100k subsections)

"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:20:46 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote:


"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:19:58 +0000, Tim Lamb
wrote:

More than 10% of my perceived income is spent on accountants fees!

One big annual complaint is the amount they try to transfer from
*revenue* spend to *drawings* in order to satisfy some disbelief that
anyone can live so cheaply.

How cheaply can you live where you are? For comparison in some areas
of Liverpool or Birmingham more than half of households have managed
to cut their total annual living expenses to less than £10,000.


I imagine that all such households are heavily subsidised snip

Quantify your claim.


I expect all households where one or more person receives income support
will fall into the category of having living expenses of less than
£10,000 - so they are certainly subsidised and will have several
entitlements, e.g. free school meals, that don't have to be paid for as
they get such benefits by virtue of receiving income support. What remains
of your sub 10k category will pay very little tax, hence receive benefits
such as health, education, waste collection, etc. at way below cost.

The national statistics office give the *average* income in 2000 for
households with 1 adult and children as £6,721 but the average disposable
income for such households as £11,224. So it seems the UK government
aren't actually prepared to let anyone with children try and live on a
household disposable income of as little as £10,000. Clearly it happens,
but that's because, as I said before many of the needs of such households
are provide for in the likes of free use of public transport, cheap
housing, free school meals....

Though as I said before, pensioners often manage to live very cheaply.
Average disposable income for pensioners living alone is £7,727.

(source
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloa...002/AA2002.pdf)

Michael Saunby