BAC wrote:

"Charlie" wrote in message
...
The only way you could keep a cat in a garden would be by building a roof
over the garden and by dropping the fence a few feet into the ground!

I once encountered a woman who kept lots of cats (double figures), and they
were not allowed to roam free - she had built extensive wire enclosures in
her back garden, linked to the back door of the house by a wire 'tunnel'. Of
course, she was a little eccentric ...

She would also probably require planning permission. Keeping of more
than ~12 cats may be considered a cat sanctuary.
--
Larry Stoter

"Larry Stoter" wrote in message
news:1fsce8l.1dcw73hnhkt4iN%
However, that is nothing to do with owners controlling their animals. If
you wish to have a pet cat, I have no objection. What I object to is it
coming into my garden and not having any means of dealing with the
problem.

I keep a squeezy washing up liquid bottle full of water. If a cat dares to
come into my garden I squirt it with the bottle of water.... they don't like
that at all and they are not hurt)

Ophelia

Larry Stoter scribbled:

Although, despite having no legal recourse, I think that what prevents
me acting against cats is essentially social attitudes. For example, I
don't think there is actually anything to stop me trapping cats and
taking them to a cat rescue centre 200 miles from where I live.

And while you are away another cat will crap in your garden.

Steve R

The old cat thread raises it's head again. Doh!

Steve R


Michael Berridge scribbled:

Gorgeous George wrote in message


Are you one of these weirdos who feels so unloved they need to have
five cats or more?


.
She probably isn't, and many of us on this NG have cats. Cats is such
a common topic that we have had written a FAQ which answers most of
the questions you could think of asking. Being directed there, and
seeing what has been written, may well answer all the questions, if
it doesn't then people can come back and ask the questions that are
unanswered. We have had so many people trolling with questions about
cats, and bizarre methods of control the enquirers are always pointed
in the FAQ direction first, the same goes for a number of other
questions.

Mike
www.british-naturism.org.uk

On 18 Mar 2003 17:58:13 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:


In article ,
(Larry Stoter) writes:
|
| Thank you. I have considered trapping and relocation to a cat rescue
| centre a couple of hundred miles from where I live. Would that be
| illegal in the UK?

Unless you had strong reasons to believe that they are strays, yes,
or at least it would be a tort. It might be regarded as cruelty,
which would be a crime.

If you are virtually certain they they are strays, I know of nothing
that stops you from humanely killing them.

How does UK jurisprudence determine virtual certainty?
Must someone maintain a current database of owner/animal associations
for their neighborhood?

It seems that one could reasonably assume any free wandering animal on
their property to be a stray, therefore would be entitled to humanely
euthanize same.

Wouldn't this protocol tend to put the burden of responsibility on the
owners of domestic animals, where I believe it belongs?


Just a few rhetorical exercises,
since I live in a inner city neighborhood in California,
where any domestic animals around here live indoors,
and are accompanied by owners when taken outside.

Bart

"Bart Bailey" wrote in message
...
On 18 Mar 2003 17:58:13 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:


In article ,
(Larry Stoter) writes:
|
| Thank you. I have considered trapping and relocation to a cat rescue
| centre a couple of hundred miles from where I live. Would that be
| illegal in the UK?

Unless you had strong reasons to believe that they are strays, yes,
or at least it would be a tort. It might be regarded as cruelty,
which would be a crime.

If you are virtually certain they they are strays, I know of nothing
that stops you from humanely killing them.

How does UK jurisprudence determine virtual certainty?
Must someone maintain a current database of owner/animal associations
for their neighborhood?

It seems that one could reasonably assume any free wandering animal on
their property to be a stray, therefore would be entitled to humanely
euthanize same.

Sorry won't work in this country! My cat has it's ID chip under it's skin,
you can't see it! If someone was to assume my cat was a stray, and kill it,
they would be in big trouble; as the law stands!



Wouldn't this protocol tend to put the burden of responsibility on the
owners of domestic animals, where I believe it belongs?


Just a few rhetorical exercises,
since I live in a inner city neighborhood in California,
where any domestic animals around here live indoors,
and are accompanied by owners when taken outside.

Bart

On Thu, 13 Mar 2003 23:38:27 -0000, "Michael Berridge"
wrote:


Cats is such a
common topic that we have had written a FAQ which answers most of the
questions you could think of asking. Being directed there, and seeing
what has been written, may well answer all the questions, if it doesn't
then people can come back and ask the questions that are unanswered. We
have had so many people trolling with questions about cats, and bizarre
methods of control the enquirers are always pointed in the FAQ direction
first, the same goes for a number of other questions.

Mike
www.british-naturism.org.uk

So, why not point to a URL for this FAQ?
or, are you only limited to one link per post,
whether it's related to gardening or not?
http://blacksbeach.org/blacks.html

Bart

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:30:09 -0000, "Little Badger"
wrote:


"Bart Bailey" wrote in message
...
On 18 Mar 2003 17:58:13 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:


In article ,
(Larry Stoter) writes:
|
| Thank you. I have considered trapping and relocation to a cat rescue
| centre a couple of hundred miles from where I live. Would that be
| illegal in the UK?

Unless you had strong reasons to believe that they are strays, yes,
or at least it would be a tort. It might be regarded as cruelty,
which would be a crime.

If you are virtually certain they they are strays, I know of nothing
that stops you from humanely killing them.

How does UK jurisprudence determine virtual certainty?
Must someone maintain a current database of owner/animal associations
for their neighborhood?

It seems that one could reasonably assume any free wandering animal on
their property to be a stray, therefore would be entitled to humanely
euthanize same.

Sorry won't work in this country! My cat has it's ID chip under it's skin,
you can't see it! If someone was to assume my cat was a stray, and kill it,
they would be in big trouble; as the law stands!

If they can't see the implant, are they then required to trap, subdue,
and scan any animals wandering freely across their property?
Is this transponder scanning equipment going to be made available to the
general public, and at what expense?



Wouldn't this protocol tend to put the burden of responsibility on the
owners of domestic animals, where I believe it belongs?


Just a few rhetorical exercises,
since I live in a inner city neighborhood in California,
where any domestic animals around here live indoors,
and are accompanied by owners when taken outside.

Bart






Bart

Bart Bailey wrote:

snips .......
Sorry won't work in this country! My cat has it's ID chip under it's skin,
you can't see it! If someone was to assume my cat was a stray, and kill it,
they would be in big trouble; as the law stands!

If they can't see the implant, are they then required to trap, subdue,
and scan any animals wandering freely across their property?
Is this transponder scanning equipment going to be made available to the
general public, and at what expense?

snips .....

--
Larry Stoter

Bart Bailey wrote:

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:30:09 -0000, "Little Badger"
wrote:

snips.......
Sorry won't work in this country! My cat has it's ID chip under it's skin,
you can't see it! If someone was to assume my cat was a stray, and kill it,
they would be in big trouble; as the law stands!

If they can't see the implant, are they then required to trap, subdue,
and scan any animals wandering freely across their property?
Is this transponder scanning equipment going to be made available to the
general public, and at what expense?

snips ........

I think that in the UK (and the USA), the the legal question would be
one of "reasonable belief". That is, was it reasonable to believe that
the animal was a stray.

So, in the case of a healthy, clean, well groomed animal, I think a
court would consider that it was "unreasonable" to consider it a stray,
even if there were no obvious identity marks.

On the other hand, I think it could be argued that is was reasonable to
consider an apparently unhealthy, dirty animal as a stray, especially if
it carried no obvious identity marks, irrespective of whether it was
chipped or not.
--
Larry Stoter

Lucky for me my cat is impeccably groomed!

Badger

"Larry Stoter" wrote in message
o.uk...
Bart Bailey wrote:

On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 23:30:09 -0000, "Little Badger"
wrote:

snips.......
Sorry won't work in this country! My cat has it's ID chip under it's
skin,
you can't see it! If someone was to assume my cat was a stray, and kill
it,
they would be in big trouble; as the law stands!

If they can't see the implant, are they then required to trap, subdue,
and scan any animals wandering freely across their property?
Is this transponder scanning equipment going to be made available to the
general public, and at what expense?

snips ........

I think that in the UK (and the USA), the the legal question would be
one of "reasonable belief". That is, was it reasonable to believe that
the animal was a stray.

So, in the case of a healthy, clean, well groomed animal, I think a
court would consider that it was "unreasonable" to consider it a stray,
even if there were no obvious identity marks.

On the other hand, I think it could be argued that is was reasonable to
consider an apparently unhealthy, dirty animal as a stray, especially if
it carried no obvious identity marks, irrespective of whether it was
chipped or not.
--
Larry Stoter

"julie manns" wrote in message ...
can anyone offer advice on how to keep them off plants.

I don't know about the plants, but I'm having some luck keeping them
from defecating in the soil having buried wire mesh just below the
surface. Its the type with 20cm squares. A few have had a paw at the
soil, but having found the mesh didn't stay around. It's supposed to
be good for squirrels too. You can also use it hooped in a slightly
raised position around the top of a wall to stop them getting into the
garden that way. baiscally they can't tip-toe through it.

HTH

In article ,
says...
mandy thomas wrote:

snips ....

How do you suggest people train their cats to stay out of your garden?

Not really my problem - if an owner can't train it to remain in the
garden, then keep it indoors or in a fenced area in the garden.

I don't have a cat, and I don't like them leaving a mess in my garden but I
just accept them as one of those fairly minor inconveniences that I can't do
anything about.

But I don't consider it a minor inconvenience, especially when they
urinate and defaecate on the veg. And toxoplasma gondii is not a minor
inconvenience to anybody who is pregnant.

I wish people would get themselves straight on this one.

The old wives' tale that once a woman is pregnant she must banish all
cats from her household is simply not true.

T.Gondii infects the vast majority of cats while they are kittens. An
adult cat has thrown out the parasite unless it it immunosuppressed in
some way (cat HIV). The risks to the mother are highest during the first
trimester.

As a precaution pregnant women are advised to avoid all fecal matter
from cats throughout pregnancy. To increase the risk by being accurate
you should say that pregnant women should avoid ingesting fecal matter
of kittens and sick cats for the first half of pregnancy.

Flies, beetles and cockroaches are common carriers of T.Gondii and their
fecal matter can harbour live eggs. The fly and beetle matter is much
more likely to be present in the soil when gardning and a T.Gondii
infection from such a source is overwhelmingly likely to be the source
of an accidental gardening infection (presumably you don't know you've
had your hand on a speck of fly crap and are more likely to e.g. get
that small splinter out with your teeth than if the splinter came after
you'd encountered cat faeces).

A pregnant woman should be gardning in gloves especially for the first
half of the pregnancy since there's lots of nasties in the soil and
T.Gondii is just one of them.

Warwick

Warwick wrote:

snips......
I wish people would get themselves straight on this one.

The old wives' tale that once a woman is pregnant she must banish all
cats from her household is simply not true.

possibly .....

T.Gondii infects the vast majority of cats while they are kittens. An
adult cat has thrown out the parasite unless it it immunosuppressed in
some way (cat HIV). The risks to the mother are highest during the first
trimester.

If you say so, although the article in New Scientist some months ago did
not mention that adult cats were immune and I haven't seen that claimed
anywhere else.

As a precaution pregnant women are advised to avoid all fecal matter
from cats throughout pregnancy. To increase the risk by being accurate
you should say that pregnant women should avoid ingesting fecal matter
of kittens and sick cats for the first half of pregnancy.

Including adult cats? And how much fecal matter needs to be ingested?

Flies, beetles and cockroaches are common carriers of T.Gondii and their
fecal matter can harbour live eggs. The fly and beetle matter is much
more likely to be present in the soil when gardning and a T.Gondii
infection from such a source is overwhelmingly likely to be the source
of an accidental gardening infection (presumably you don't know you've
had your hand on a speck of fly crap and are more likely to e.g. get
that small splinter out with your teeth than if the splinter came after
you'd encountered cat faeces).

Hmm .... If a speck of insect fecal matter is a risk, then touching cats
strikes me as a serious problem. Have you watched what cats lick?

A pregnant woman should be gardning in gloves especially for the first
half of the pregnancy since there's lots of nasties in the soil and
T.Gondii is just one of them.

Warwick

What else is a specific threat to pregnant women? Most of the threats in
soil are a general threat to everybody, aren't they? Isn't it only T.
gondii which is a specific threat to pregnant women?

My understanding is that T. gondii is part of a predator/prey parasitic
cycle which changes the behaviour of the prey (small rodents) so that
the predator (cats) catches more infected prey, thus amplifying the
incidence of the parasite in the predator and prey species. And, as
usual, the predator tends to concentrate the the parasite/poison, being
at the top of the food chain (e.g. DDT and birds of prey).

So, with no evidence, other than a small appreciation of predator/prey
dynamics, my first guess would be that a top predator (cat) would
concentrate T. gondii parasites much more significantly than insects,
much lower down the food chain:-)

But I could be wrong!
--
Larry Stoter

In article , Harry Web
writes
"julie manns" wrote in message
...
can anyone offer advice on how to keep them off plants.

I don't know about the plants, but I'm having some luck keeping them
from defecating in the soil having buried wire mesh just below the
surface. Its the type with 20cm squares. A few have had a paw at the
soil, but having found the mesh didn't stay around. It's supposed to
be good for squirrels too. You can also use it hooped in a slightly
raised position around the top of a wall to stop them getting into the
garden that way. baiscally they can't tip-toe through it.

HTH

I have just ordered 6 "Scaredy Cat Plants" Coleus Canina from Thompson
Morgan Cost £7.99 I will see if that works . Supposed to scare the
hell out of cats - a smell that cats can detect but we can't.

http://thompson-morgan.com
--
John Griffiths
Baxenden Lancashire
http://www.johngriffiths.net