VX wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 19:16:21 +0000, VX wrote
(in message m):

My first thought was (and still is)- how can I bath without using
soap?

Er, what I mean is, I wonder if there is way? This may not be a
profitable avenue to explore but it would be great if there was some
sort of alternative. I hate the idea of wasting all that water just
because I've contaminated it by washing with soap in it....

Actually, we use soap far too much. I once lived on intimate terms with
a family who only ever used soap for hands and emergencies. They did use
deodorant, though sparingly, and were all as sweet as nuts, and had
lovely skin. It was interesting to see the way water behaved on the
children: it went into well-defined globules, as on waterproofed cloth.
I don't suppose it would take too long for our skins to get back to
normal if we gave up soap for bathing.

--
Mike.

"VX" wrote in message
s.com...
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:51:23 +0000, GH wrote
(in message .com):

One thing you could do is buy 100% biodegradable soap (liquid) and save
the water from dishwashing, laundry, shower/bath - that makes a lot of
water and you save some money on clothes because your colours don't
fade so quickly.

I use the Ecover laundry and dishwashing products, but wonder what would
be
biodegradable for shower/bath type soap- any suggestions for that?


Try a camping store for biodegradable soap and cloths.
Not cheap but is degradeable.

Be aware that biodegradable means that 90% of the 'stuff' will break down in
6 months in soil.

Sitting in a butt is not the same thing.

Dave

"Stan The Man" wrote in message
...
The first thing is to know what a hosepipe restriction actually means.
Although the water companies don't like to make this clear, you can
still legitimately use a hosepipe during a "ban". What you can't do is
water plants directly with it or wash the car. But for the disabled or
infirm who can't carry heavy watering cans, it might be useful to know
that they can place empty containers around the garden, strategically
close to plants which need water, and fill those containers with a hose
- then using a watering can to carry the precious stuff the short
distance to their plants.

Unusually for the water companies, there's a good/factual Q&A on the
Three Valleys Water website at
http://www.3valleys.co.uk/home/ah_beatthedrought.shtml which explains
what you can still use a hose for -- including, ludicrously, to supply
a pressure washer.

The law is an ass and I suppose I'm in the minority in that I am
furious that gardeners and the £5bn gardening industry are used as
scapegoats when their consumption of water is so small. The water
compnaies don't have any powers to impose restrictions on the people
who use 99% of our abstracted water. They can only prohibit the 1% that
goes to an outside tap. That's because an outside tap doesn't come
under their statutory domestic supply regulations. So, take as many
power showers as you like, leave the bathroom tap running all night,
flush the loo 5 times a night and generally waste as much water as you
like indoors because it will take an (unlikely) emergency drought order
and standpipes to curb you.

Meanwhile the gardener carries the full burden of restrictions despite
the fact that 96% of all household water use goes unchecked and so does
all the industrial, commercial and agricultural use. And so does much
of the water industry leakage which alone would supply over one-third
of all the nation's domestic needs.

But what really makes my blood boil is that all the evidence indicates
that hosepipe restrictions don't actually save water. Research by the
Environment Agency, the Water Research Centre, Southern Water and
others hasn't been able to prove that hosepipe bans save water. Some of
the research shows that water consumption actually goes up during a
hosepipe ban. Other research shows that industrial users reduced their
consumption far more than domestic users despite the fact that the
industrial users weren't subject to any restrictions.

Anyway, the real reason for the water shortage in the south east isn't
the low rainfall because it has been just as low in other areas but the
water companies inability and unwillingness to invest in water storage
resources - combined with the Government's suicidal house-building
programme in the region.

And do check whether your water supplier really has imposed a
restriction. Research last year by the Environment Agency proved that
14% of customers in a region where water was plentiful and unrestricted
wrongly assumed that they were subject to a hosepipe ban.

For the record, here (at the time of writing) are all the hosepipe bans
which will be in force by April 3:

Cholderton & District Water
Folkestone & Dover Water
Mid Kent Water
South East Water
Sutton & East Surrey Water
Thames Water
Three Valleys Water
Southern Water has imposed part-area restrictions in its Sussex North,
Sussex Coast, Sussex Hasting, Kent Thanet, Kent Medway and Isle of
Wight water supply areas (739,000) but not in its Hampshire supply
area.

That's a total of 6.3m homes, all in the south east. Other areas are
not threatened by drought and won't need to impose hosepipe bans.

Next week I will come under Thames Water's hosepipe ban. I have sown
new areas of lawn and if it doesn't rain, I will connect up my hosepipe
to my tripod garden shower, perfectly legally, and tell the family to
shower outdoors - moving the tripod around as required.

It's all spin and con and we just take it like sheep.

Thank God you said all that. You have saved me the time and effort of making
an almost identical rant.
Not much I can add really. (but I will)
If you remember in 1995/1996 Parts of Yorkshire ran out of water.
I like to think it was because there was an active campaign by consumers to
waste as much water as possible.
The net result was a massive investment in infrastructure which should make
YWA immune to a few dry winters.
There is no shortage of water nationally but the pipes were never installed
to distribute it.
How about a big water pipe from Scotland to London.--along with a secondary
pipe for poo :-)

Stan The Man wrote:
[...]
And so does
much of the water industry leakage which alone would supply over
one-third of all the nation's domestic needs.

Well, people voted for politicians who promised to privatise the
public's utilities. I have little sympathy for them.


But what really makes my blood boil is that all the evidence indicates
that hosepipe restrictions don't actually save water. Research by the
Environment Agency, the Water Research Centre, Southern Water and
others hasn't been able to prove that hosepipe bans save water. Some
of the research shows that water consumption actually goes up during a
hosepipe ban.

Well, I'd expect it to. Dry periods are when people are going to water
their gardens on top of all their normal water use. (They often don't
actually need to, of course.) I'm sure filling watering cans uses a lot
less water than walking round the garden holding a running hosepipe.


Other research shows that industrial users reduced their
consumption far more than domestic users despite the fact that the
industrial users weren't subject to any restrictions.

Except that they _are_ restricted in a sense: by having to pay water
bills based on metering. That seems to be one way of controlling
consumption. I imagine Sacha's business is on a meter, for example.

Anyway, the real reason for the water shortage in the south east isn't
the low rainfall because it has been just as low in other areas but
the water companies inability and unwillingness to invest in water
storage resources - combined with the Government's suicidal
house-building programme in the region.

That's perfectly true.
[...]

It's all spin and con and we just take it like sheep.

Yep. And anybody who takes an interest in politics is told he's being
boring.

--
Mike.

In article m, VX
wrote:

On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 21:18:40 +0000, Stan The Man wrote
(in message ):

(snip)
What confuses me is whether the hosepipe ban could ever apply to a hosepipe
that is connected only to a water butt that contains water that I put there
myself, ie that I recycled, or rainwater that I diverted from the roof rather
than allowing it to go straight into the drain. Surely they can't stop me
using a hose (or an underground irrigation system connected by a hose) with
that? They way they say it on the TV makes it sound like you can't use a hose
at all no matter where you obtained the water from, and that can't be quite
right, surely.

You will always be able to attach a hose to a private water supply -
which is what a water butt is. In fact you will make the water
companies very happy. Is your system gravity fed? How well does it
work? Tell all.

The water
compnaies don't have any powers to impose restrictions on the people
who use 99% of our abstracted water. They can only prohibit the 1% that
goes to an outside tap.

Just to make sure I got this- does this mean that the fact that when using
mains water I always run a hose through the kitchen window and use the
kitchen tap- does this mean the hosepipe ban would not apply to me?

Good spot but HM Govt saw that coming and the Water Industry Act 1991
doesn't actually mention which tap the water is drawn from. The
Temporary Hosepipe Ban legislation simply bans the use of hose for the
specific purposes of watering priovate gardens and washing private
vehicles. So, you would be liable to a fine if you connected the hose
to an inside tap - but not if you took the hose off and left the tap
running indefinitely.

In article , Rupert
wrote:

How about a big water pipe from Scotland to London.--along with a secondary
pipe for poo :-)

You jest but Thames Water have a serious contingency plan in the event
of a third dry winter to import water from Scandinavia in giant rubber
condoms towed across the sea and up the Thames.

In article , Mike Lyle
wrote:

Stan The Man wrote:
[...]
But what really makes my blood boil is that all the evidence indicates
that hosepipe restrictions don't actually save water. Research by the
Environment Agency, the Water Research Centre, Southern Water and
others hasn't been able to prove that hosepipe bans save water. Some
of the research shows that water consumption actually goes up during a
hosepipe ban.

Well, I'd expect it to. Dry periods are when people are going to water
their gardens on top of all their normal water use. (They often don't
actually need to, of course.) I'm sure filling watering cans uses a lot
less water than walking round the garden holding a running hosepipe.

The ban in question was imposed during a hot spell. There was no
logical reason to suppose that water consumption would have been
naturally higher during the ban than it was before the ban. And people
who walk around with gushing hosepipes are irresponsible. Any decent
spray gun or nozzle fitting makes it easy to turn the water off at the
business end. A good hosegun defaults to off so that you have to
squeeze the trigger to produce water.

Other research shows that industrial users reduced their
consumption far more than domestic users despite the fact that the
industrial users weren't subject to any restrictions.

Except that they _are_ restricted in a sense: by having to pay water
bills based on metering. That seems to be one way of controlling
consumption. I imagine Sacha's business is on a meter, for example.

Indeed they are metered but they were metered before, during and after
the hosepipe restriction so it wasn't a factor in the research.
Domestic metering is a hot topic and 28% of homes in the UK now have
one fitted, according to OFWAT. Trouble is the research again shatters
the big myth. Newly metered homes do indeed reduce their water
consumption immediately by up to 10% but after the first year - and
presumably not having been shocked by their water bills - metered
properties gradually return to within 1% or so of their former,
pre-metered usage. Perhaps water needs to be more expensive for
metering to have a long-term impact on consumption.

"Janet Tweedy" wrote in message
...
In article , Janet Baraclough
writes

My first thought was (and still is)- how can I bath without using soap?

Quite easily; one of my sons has never used any washing products on
his skin, just water.

Janet.


Many of the so called organic or 'pure' shampoos, soap and bath oils
contain SLS or sodium lauryl sulphate (often spelt in differing ways)

the MSG of detergents

I have found only one or two bath products via the Internet, which don't
actually contain it.
It burns my skin and aggravates my sons excema so we try not to use it.
If it dries my skin out it can't do much good to plants.

I saw a bio-degradable liquid soap last week. It was market as such,
friendly on the environment, clean and green etc. A large label said on it
'Danger-handle with care' or words to that effect. It may bio-degrade but
into what is one question and what damage will it do on the way is another.

rob

Instead of soap you can use a number of other products that have been
used to make natural body scrubs or face masks - wheat (or any cereal)
husk, tomato juice + pulp, fresh non-pasteurized milk, corn, clay,
apple peal/juice, etc...

We used to make 1-2 liters of fruit and vegetable juice a week to drink
and I used the pulp for this(or stored in the fridge). It's a nice skin
treatment and it's fun experimenting.

The trick is though that after spreading it on your entire body you
have to wait 10-15 mins for it to dry, (which makes it less comfortable
in the winter) then scrub it off with a sponge or plastic scrub...

In article , Janet Baraclough
writes

My first thought was (and still is)- how can I bath without using soap?

Quite easily; one of my sons has never used any washing products on
his skin, just water.

Janet.


Many of the so called organic or 'pure' shampoos, soap and bath oils
contain SLS or sodium lauryl sulphate (often spelt in differing ways)
I have found only one or two bath products via the Internet, which don't
actually contain it.
It burns my skin and aggravates my sons excema so we try not to use it.
If it dries my skin out it can't do much good to plants.

Is grey water safe for vegetable use if used regularly?

Janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Amersham Gardening Association
http://www.amersham-gardening.net

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...

Quite easily; one of my sons has never used any washing products on
his skin, just water.

Janet.


Yup, just push 'em out into the rain.

Saves having to run the washing machine quite so often, as well.



michael adams

....

"VX" wrote in message
s.com...
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:51:23 +0000, GH wrote
(in message .com):

One thing you could do is buy 100% biodegradable soap (liquid) and save
the water from dishwashing, laundry, shower/bath - that makes a lot of
water and you save some money on clothes because your colours don't
fade so quickly.

I use the Ecover laundry and dishwashing products, but wonder what would
be
biodegradable for shower/bath type soap- any suggestions for that?

I buy washing soda in bulk and mix it with baking soda or borax for the
laundry. It costs as little, or less, than cmmercial powders, uses a shit
load less power to make and distribute and package, breaks down easily into
basic chemical components AND does as well, IMHO, as commercial powders.
Washing soda by itself works well. I also use it straight in the dish
washer. I don't even bother with "eco-friendly" detergents as they cost 3-4
times the washing soda.

rob

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
VX wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 19:16:21 +0000, VX wrote
(in message m):

My first thought was (and still is)- how can I bath without using
soap?

Er, what I mean is, I wonder if there is way? This may not be a
profitable avenue to explore but it would be great if there was some
sort of alternative. I hate the idea of wasting all that water just
because I've contaminated it by washing with soap in it....

Actually, we use soap far too much. I once lived on intimate terms with
a family who only ever used soap for hands and emergencies. They did use
deodorant, though sparingly, and were all as sweet as nuts, and had
lovely skin. It was interesting to see the way water behaved on the
children: it went into well-defined globules, as on waterproofed cloth.
I don't suppose it would take too long for our skins to get back to
normal if we gave up soap for bathing.

I rarely use shampoo on my hair these days and it seems to be fine. I used
to suffer flakey scalp (some may call it dandruff but slakey scalp has less
stigma) from time to time and bought the anti-flakey scalp (dandruff)
shampoo. Since I stopped using the shampoo natural oils have started to re
appear and the dandruff has all but gone. My hair is in good nick and, last
time I looked anyway, no nits or fleas have moved in.

rob

In article , George.com
writes
Many of the so called organic or 'pure' shampoos, soap and bath oils
contain SLS or sodium lauryl sulphate (often spelt in differing ways)

the MSG of detergents


I was told at a research skin clinic that, that was the ingredient that
made my scalp itchy as well, apparently it was invented to degrease
garage floors It's in even expensive, apparently pure, aromatherapy
cosmetics and bath oils and shampoos.

Janet

--
Janet Tweedy
Amersham Gardening Association
http://www.amersham-gardening.net

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
VX wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 19:16:21 +0000, VX wrote
(in message m):

My first thought was (and still is)- how can I bath without using
soap?

Er, what I mean is, I wonder if there is way? This may not be a
profitable avenue to explore but it would be great if there was some
sort of alternative. I hate the idea of wasting all that water just
because I've contaminated it by washing with soap in it....

Actually, we use soap far too much. I once lived on intimate terms with
a family who only ever used soap for hands and emergencies. They did use
deodorant, though sparingly, and were all as sweet as nuts, and had
lovely skin. It was interesting to see the way water behaved on the
children: it went into well-defined globules, as on waterproofed cloth.
I don't suppose it would take too long for our skins to get back to
normal if we gave up soap for bathing.
Mike.

Interesting post Mike !

One feels one would like to try alternatives to soap, but is wary of BO,
especially in our highly sensitive office environments :~)

Jenny