"George.com" wrote in message
...

"VX" wrote in message
s.com...
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:51:23 +0000, GH wrote
(in message .com):

One thing you could do is buy 100% biodegradable soap (liquid) and save
the water from dishwashing, laundry, shower/bath - that makes a lot of
water and you save some money on clothes because your colours don't
fade so quickly.

I use the Ecover laundry and dishwashing products, but wonder what would
be
biodegradable for shower/bath type soap- any suggestions for that?

I buy washing soda in bulk and mix it with baking soda or borax for the
laundry. It costs as little, or less, than cmmercial powders, uses a shit
load less power to make and distribute and package, breaks down easily into
basic chemical components AND does as well, IMHO, as commercial powders.
Washing soda by itself works well. I also use it straight in the dish
washer. I don't even bother with "eco-friendly" detergents as they cost 3-4
times the washing soda.
rob

Can your 'mixture' be used for coloured cloths or just for 'whites' ??

I've read that is it caustic - do you need to wear gloves to handle it?
Does this not eat into the material?

Jenny

Stan The Man wrote:
In article , Mike Lyle
wrote:

Stan The Man wrote:
[...]
But what really makes my blood boil is that all the evidence
indicates that hosepipe restrictions don't actually save water.
Research by the Environment Agency, the Water Research Centre,
Southern Water and others hasn't been able to prove that hosepipe
bans save water. Some of the research shows that water consumption
actually goes up during a hosepipe ban.

Well, I'd expect it to. Dry periods are when people are going to
water their gardens on top of all their normal water use. (They
often don't actually need to, of course.) I'm sure filling watering
cans uses a lot less water than walking round the garden holding a
running hosepipe.

The ban in question was imposed during a hot spell. There was no
logical reason to suppose that water consumption would have been
naturally higher during the ban than it was before the ban.

Huh? You don't _really_ think people as a whole use no more water during
a hot spell, surely? It must seem almost patronising to spell it out;
but I hope you'll forgive me for mentioning more baths or showers, more
plant-watering, and probably more chance of deciding to wash the windows
or the car, even the curtains and the underblanket. These seem pretty
logical to me.


And people
who walk around with gushing hosepipes are irresponsible. Any decent
spray gun or nozzle fitting makes it easy to turn the water off at the
business end. A good hosegun defaults to off so that you have to
squeeze the trigger to produce water.

Well, yes, of course; but my informal observation suggests that too few
people actually use those things.


Other research shows that industrial users reduced their
consumption far more than domestic users despite the fact that the
industrial users weren't subject to any restrictions.

Except that they _are_ restricted in a sense: by having to pay water
bills based on metering. That seems to be one way of controlling
consumption. I imagine Sacha's business is on a meter, for example.

Indeed they are metered but they were metered before, during and after
the hosepipe restriction so it wasn't a factor in the research.

Ah, I see. That's quite remarkable. If I had to guess, I'd say these
firms were doing their bit by cutting down on vehicle washing and other
inessentials: well done, them!

Domestic metering is a hot topic and 28% of homes in the UK now have
one fitted, according to OFWAT. Trouble is the research again shatters
the big myth. Newly metered homes do indeed reduce their water
consumption immediately by up to 10% but after the first year - and
presumably not having been shocked by their water bills - metered
properties gradually return to within 1% or so of their former,
pre-metered usage.

I didn't know that, but I suppose it's not surprising, human nature beng
what it is.

Perhaps water needs to be more expensive for
metering to have a long-term impact on consumption.

Probably. But given how extravagant many people are with electricity...

--
Mike.

In article , Mike Lyle
wrote:

The ban in question was imposed during a hot spell. There was no
logical reason to suppose that water consumption would have been
naturally higher during the ban than it was before the ban.

Huh? You don't _really_ think people as a whole use no more water during
a hot spell, surely? It must seem almost patronising to spell it out;
but I hope you'll forgive me for mentioning more baths or showers, more
plant-watering, and probably more chance of deciding to wash the windows
or the car, even the curtains and the underblanket. These seem pretty
logical to me.

Of course, all water use goes up in a hot spell. But you must have
missed my point: it was hot before the ban and hot during the ban. Iow,
the climate wasn't a factor in gauging the effectiveness of the ban.

Stan The Man wrote:
In article , Mike Lyle
wrote:

The ban in question was imposed during a hot spell. There was no
logical reason to suppose that water consumption would have been
naturally higher during the ban than it was before the ban.

Huh? You don't _really_ think people as a whole use no more water
during a hot spell, surely? It must seem almost patronising to spell
it out; but I hope you'll forgive me for mentioning more baths or
showers, more plant-watering, and probably more chance of deciding
to wash the windows or the car, even the curtains and the
underblanket. These seem pretty logical to me.

Of course, all water use goes up in a hot spell. But you must have
missed my point: it was hot before the ban and hot during the ban.
Iow, the climate wasn't a factor in gauging the effectiveness of the
ban.

Without stats, I agree. But I proceeded on the assumption that the dry
weather persisted after the ban was introduced and so exacerbated the
conditions.

We continue to agree that the system is badly mismanaged.

--
Mike.

On Sat, 25 Mar 2006 1:47:56 +0000, Stan The Man wrote
(in message ):

You will always be able to attach a hose to a private water supply -
which is what a water butt is. In fact you will make the water
companies very happy. Is your system gravity fed? How well does it
work? Tell all.

I haven't got the downpipe connected to the butt yet and haven't started
using the butt, so I don't know how well gravity alone would work. Originally
I just assumed it would be enough, now I'm not so sure. However I bought a
"waterbutt pump" (cheaper from diytools.com than from Crocus for the same
item) for the purpose of getting bathwater out of the bath and into the butt,
but realised belatedly from its description that it was primarily intended
for getting water out of the butt and into a hose. This suggests that this
has proved to be necessary on several occasions sufficient for someone to
succesfully market a pump for the purpose. Well I'm prepared. But I think I'm
expecting to need the pump for pushing water through to its ultimate
destination.

--
VX (remove alcohol for email)

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Rupert" contains these words:

How about a big water pipe from Scotland to London.--along with a
secondary
pipe for poo :-)

Illogical Rupert, everyone knows there's no shortage of pooh in England
:-)

Janet

You forgot to say "Keep yer fing ands of us water" :-)

On 25 Mar 2006 00:35:17 -0800, "GH" wrote:

Instead of soap you can use a number of other products that have been
used to make natural body scrubs or face masks - wheat (or any cereal)
husk, tomato juice + pulp, fresh non-pasteurized milk, corn, clay,
apple peal/juice, etc...

We used to make 1-2 liters of fruit and vegetable juice a week to drink
and I used the pulp for this(or stored in the fridge). It's a nice skin
treatment and it's fun experimenting.

The trick is though that after spreading it on your entire body you
have to wait 10-15 mins for it to dry, (which makes it less comfortable
in the winter) then scrub it off with a sponge or plastic scrub...


Could you use spent hops and malt grains from beer wort mashing? I
already use the yeast and trub for making 'beer bread' (if you ever
want to see instant dough proving try some of that live working
brewer's yeast - you have to fight it down!!!) so instead of
recycling the hops and grains as garden compost I might be able to
spread them on my body and let them dry on. Would smelling even more
like a brewery be socially acceptable?

Rupert wrote:
"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"Mike Lyle" wrote in [...]
Actually, we use soap far too much. I once lived on intimate terms
with a family who only ever used soap for hands and emergencies.
They did use deodorant, though sparingly, and were all as sweet as
nuts, and had lovely skin. It was interesting to see the way water
behaved on the children: it went into well-defined globules, as on
waterproofed cloth. I don't suppose it would take too long for our
skins to get back to normal if we gave up soap for bathing.

So, what do you do, just stand under the shower and rub your hands
all over your body in the hope some of the dirt will come off?

Alan


Yes that's about it -and most if not all the dirt will come off,
however most of the body oils will not be removed.
You could use soap ( the stuff that forms a scum in hard water)
instead of the modern detergents.
Removing *all* body hair also helps :-)
As an experiment try washing your hair for the next few weeks in
plain warm water and report back to the group with your findings.

We don't often actually _get_ much dirt on our bodies anyway. I'm
soap-addicted myself, but any beautician will probably confirm that it
does more harm than good except where genuine hygiene is concerned. The
things plain water won't shift aren't an everyday problem for most
people, and when they do appear it's usually on limited areas.

--
Mike.

"JennyC" wrote in message
...

"George.com" wrote in message
...

"VX" wrote in message
s.com...
On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 12:51:23 +0000, GH wrote
(in message .com):

One thing you could do is buy 100% biodegradable soap (liquid) and
save
the water from dishwashing, laundry, shower/bath - that makes a lot
of
water and you save some money on clothes because your colours don't
fade so quickly.

I use the Ecover laundry and dishwashing products, but wonder what
would
be
biodegradable for shower/bath type soap- any suggestions for that?

I buy washing soda in bulk and mix it with baking soda or borax for the
laundry. It costs as little, or less, than cmmercial powders, uses a
shit
load less power to make and distribute and package, breaks down easily
into
basic chemical components AND does as well, IMHO, as commercial powders.
Washing soda by itself works well. I also use it straight in the dish
washer. I don't even bother with "eco-friendly" detergents as they cost
3-4
times the washing soda.
rob

Can your 'mixture' be used for coloured cloths or just for 'whites' ??

I've read that is it caustic - do you need to wear gloves to handle it?
Does this not eat into the material?

Jenny

I have used it for ayear now on everything and it doesn't seem to be any
different for whites or colours.

I don't seperate colours and whites. Also, in my experience, the dyes used
in colours are 'colour fast' and don't bleed in to the water. The only
problem I have evey had with colours is when using bleach, which I don't any
more.

The top line modern powders and detergents are said to contain fabric
whiteners. This may be the case however I have never noticed remarkable
results from detergents in the wash in brightening colours.

Some whites (likes sheets) do go gray over time however this has been the
case with washing soda OR commercial detergents. I guess it is simply the
way I use them, wash them etc. If the sheets are slightly gray I couldn't
care less frankly. They get resued for something else (rags, drop cloths
etc) when they become thread bare, not because of graying. When I am asleep
I am not aware of what colour it is. If I want them to be bright white I can
use nappy wash or hang them on the line for a hweek in bright sunshine (the
best bleaching agent).

If you have white work shirts, dresses etc that have to remain white I guess
you would wash those sperately with commercial powders so switching to
washing soda you would follow the same procedure but without rooting the
environment so much.

People say washing soda is harsh on the hands. In my experience, that is
crap. I handle it regularly and in no way does it burn or irritate my skin.
There is a residue after handling and a quick wash removes that. I don't
bother with gloves. Obviously, don't eat the stuff or get it in your eyes. I
guess I wouldn't rub it in other sensitive areas like my groin either, but
never having tried, I can't vouch for that. If you have very sensitive skin
or want to keep your hands baby bum smooth you may want to wear gloves. As a
point of reference, concrete drys mu hands to the point of needing to use
hand cream for 2 days or more to restore the condition, washing soda I never
have to bother about.

I use about the same amount as recommended for commercial powders, a scoop
full. This can be varied depending on experiemnts and results. I throw it in
the bottom of the washing machine and set it on a cold wash, just like I do
with commercial powders. You can mix it with hot water prior to wash and put
it in the tub when it has water in it. Waste of time however in my opinion.
Really soiled clothes may need to be soaked or spot cleaned with something,
commercial varieties abound, before adding to the wash. However, you need to
do that with commercial powders as well to get the best results.

Washing soda can be mixed with borax or baking soda as well. Keep the borax
away from children as it is poisonous and don't eat it obviously.

Washing soda does absorb water in humid conditions. I keep my mix in an ice
cream container by the washing machine. Over summer it absorbed water
(somehow) and became a slurry. That did not seem to effect its activity and
simply meant I poured a semi liquid mix into the washing machine rather than
a crystal form.

Overall, I have found it to be easy to use, as effective as other washing
powders and with nil side effects. Moreover, it is easier on the environment
both in how it is produced, distributed and sold (if you buy it in bulk) and
softer on water ways when a waste product. Large amounts of sodium carbonate
(which is washing soda), or borax for that matter. in water ways can be
toxic to aquatic life. The amounts used in domestic washing however is so
diluted wheh it reaches the sewers, or septic tank, or even grey water use,
that I don't consider it to be a problem. It breaks down quickly into very
simple chemical compounds, does not leave complex or hard to degrade
chemical compounds, and contains no phosphorous etc which commercial
detergents do which grows aquatic weed.

rob

Good one!
I meant to spread them on your body and let them dry only to peel them
later and then rinse your body with water. So you won't smell anyway
and you can water the garden and get a skin treatment at the same time.

In article , Janet Baraclough
writes
The message
from "Rupert" contains these words:

How about a big water pipe from Scotland to London.--along with a secondary
pipe for poo :-)

Illogical Rupert, everyone knows there's no shortage of pooh in England :-)

Janet


I think he meant a pipe to reciprocate the generous donation of liquid

Janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

Save winter water from your water butt in those excess, supermarket carrier bags by using SAP (Super absorbing polymers). These polymers, which are safe and non toxic are simply added to water and hold 2 to 3 hundred times thier own weight in water. They come into thier own when dug into soil (gardens or hanging baskets etc). Plants and flowers take the water from the crystals and any future rainfall will replenish the crystals. Most of you will, at some time, will have handled this type of product without realising - they are commonly found in disposable nappies.

Apologies for the advert, but try dyofix.co.uk

I am sure that the ban cannot relate to water that you have stored yourself, even if you did use a hosepipe connected to the butt.

We ran tests recently on a water butt pump and the pressure supplied by the pump appeared to be as high, if not higher than that of the water mains. Very easy to use as well, just drop it into the water butt, connect a hose and plug the pump in.

Take a look...
http://www.garden4less.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=WBP1

We also connected it to a large automatic watering system and it ran great.

michael adams writes


Assuming the bathroom is upstairs you can do this quite easily by
siphoning it. If a hose is full of water with one end in the bath,
then providing the outlet at the other end is lower, all the water
in the bath will flow through the hose, even uphill, and out through
the bathroom window. Except for the final amount when you'll need
to hold up the end of the hose to allow the water to flow down
and through the window.

So first fit a stopper on the butt end. Then go back upstairs
and fill the hose from a tap on the bath just trickling will do
if you don't want a shower as well - until it's full, then put
your finger over it and put that end under the bathwater and keep
it there somehow. Then go back downstairs and put the other end
under the water in the butt and take the stopper off....

How easy is it to fill the hose with water if you've put a stopped in
the bottom end? - if you do it at a trickle, then the air can escape,
but try and run the water in too fast and don't you get problems?


--
Kay

"K" wrote in message
...
michael adams writes


Assuming the bathroom is upstairs you can do this quite easily by
siphoning it. If a hose is full of water with one end in the bath,
then providing the outlet at the other end is lower, all the water
in the bath will flow through the hose, even uphill, and out through
the bathroom window. Except for the final amount when you'll need
to hold up the end of the hose to allow the water to flow down
and through the window.

So first fit a stopper on the butt end. Then go back upstairs
and fill the hose from a tap on the bath just trickling will do
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
if you don't want a shower as well - until it's full, then put
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
your finger over it and put that end under the bathwater and keep
it there somehow. Then go back downstairs and put the other end
under the water in the butt and take the stopper off....

How easy is it to fill the hose with water if you've put a stopped in
the bottom end? - if you do it at a trickle, then the air can escape,
but try and run the water in too fast and don't you get problems?

As I said, you have to do it in a trickle. Otherwise the air forms
bubbles and you get splashed as it forces its way back up out of
the hose. The best way is to use a funnel in the end of the hose
hold it under the tap, and let the water pour into that. The only
other way would be to suck water back up the hose from below - as
you need to do when siphoning petrol out of a petrol tank. I've
done this quite often - siphoned bath water out of the bathroom
window into the garden. Although not into a butt. It really
does work. Trust me.

You know it makes sense.



michael adams

....





--
Kay