"Sue" wrote in message
reenews.net...


You don't have to think too hard to realise that if it took 12 years to
convert, then certificated organic farming would be a non-starter as it
would be totally out of the question for any commercial farmer to even
try.
--
Sue

"Thinking too hard" is not a 'norm' for some members of this newsgroup.
Please do not confuse facts with common sense :-((

Mike

--
--------------------------------------
Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association
www.rnshipmates.co.uk
www.nsrafa.com

On 5/9/06 17:29, in article
ws.net, "Sue"
wrote:


"Martin" wrote
On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:09:52 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:
from "La Puce" contains these words:

Also - it does take 12 years for a farmer to switch to
organic farming because it takes that long for the soil to recover.
When I knew this

Please don't post sily misinformation. It takes up to 2 years, not
12. According to the Soil Association.
snip SA info
It says a MINIMUM of two years (three years for top fruit orchards)

You don't have to think too hard to realise that if it took 12 years to
convert, then certificated organic farming would be a non-starter as it
would be totally out of the question for any commercial farmer to even
try.

I mentioned this claim to our neighbouring farmer who converted most of his
land to organic farming a few years ago. He had tears of laughter........
;-)

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

On 5/9/06 23:04, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 22:49:35 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 5/9/06 17:29, in article
ws.net, "Sue"
wrote:


"Martin" wrote
On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:09:52 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:
from "La Puce" contains these words:

Also - it does take 12 years for a farmer to switch to
organic farming because it takes that long for the soil to recover.
When I knew this

Please don't post sily misinformation. It takes up to 2 years, not
12. According to the Soil Association.
snip SA info
It says a MINIMUM of two years (three years for top fruit orchards)

You don't have to think too hard to realise that if it took 12 years to
convert, then certificated organic farming would be a non-starter as it
would be totally out of the question for any commercial farmer to even
try.

I mentioned this claim to our neighbouring farmer who converted most of his
land to organic farming a few years ago. He had tears of laughter........
;-)

The time needed in reality rather than legally, must depend on what is
in the soil prior to conversion.

The Soil Association gives the guidelines and the tests are based on the
reality of how long it takes to 'go organic' The claim above was that it
takes 'a farmer' 12 years etc. etc. If he's farming on nuclear waste I
suppose it might take a while - couple of aeons, perhaps. ;-)
The OMSCo site says

"How long does it take for a farm to convert to organic production?

It takes around two years for a dairy farm to convert to organic production
- and a lot of hard work! Until a farm is fully converted, the milk cannot
be sold as organic. "


Farmers who go organic have been farming on otherwise 'normally' farmed land
using normal non-organic practices. Our neighbour took two years to turn
most of his fields organic. But the reality is that if the soil doesn't
pass the tests it won't be accredited. And the SA's web site gives the
above guidelines for the time this takes normally. From talking to organic
farmers, we've learned that they're very thorough about how they do this and
take samples from many areas of a field. They don't just walk through the
gate and take away a clod of mud, which is reassuring, I suppose. I am a
little leery of some claims one sees for veg grown abroad where I would like
to be certain such stringent tests were carried out. I think I'm right that
if their dairy herds are not organic, they are not allowed to use the slurry
from those cows to spray onto organic fields. Cows are not treated with
routine medication and if they do have to be treated, they are withdrawn
from production for something in the region of three times longer than in
non-organic, IIRC.
And finally, you may not have heard that organic milk has been officially
declared better for you than non-organic. Organic milk contains 71% more
Omega 3 than non-organic milk.

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

Oh my god Ii seem to have opened up a right can of worms - at least those
that have survivied the chemicals!

Thanks for everyones help and advice - I now need to go away and think
about it and plan my plan of attack when I'm able to get up there all day on
Friday. Have removed some small dead trees and some decaying bushes ready
for a bonfire - not even sure if that is safe now!
Will strim the high grass me thinks, add to the fire and then see how the
land lies so to speak. Would rather not use chemicals and some posters are
correct in why rush but need to get things ready for planting next spring -
maybe a rough rotovate and then leave ready to gently dig over later?

There's a lot of resources here (as well as on the forum): try
clicking on "methods of cultivation" and then "clearing a new
allotment". The "basics" section on the forum is usually full of
newbie allotmenteers, often asking this very question...
http://www.allotments4all.co.uk/joom...iki/Itemid,61/
Ditto
http://www.allotment.org.uk/articles..._Allotment.php
and
http://www.moonbells.com/advice/Allo...nt_manual.html
though the latter is very much work-in-progress and is missing the
photos needed to identify a lot of the weeds!


jane

Chiltern Hills, 140m above sea level.

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

In article , Sacha
writes

And finally, you may not have heard that organic milk has been officially
declared better for you than non-organic. Organic milk contains 71% more
Omega 3 than non-organic milk.



I was very disappointed a couple of years ago when Express dairies too
off green top milk (unpasteurised) from its delivery. I have organic
milk now from them (mainly to support the milkman) but would love to be
able to go back to untreated milk.

janet
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

Martin wrote:
The time needed in reality rather than legally, must depend on what is
in the soil prior to conversion.

Off course and sorry for delay with this but I was away, trying to
avoid Sacha in Devon in her tea rooms, which brought my kids to tears
of laughter )

My notes were encompasing the whole period needed for soil
accreditation, but also the organic accreditation along with the
conservation and good farming practices. My student friends and I being
so 'revolutionary' and all eagered to do things just right, took it to
its limit and just covered all the necessary requirements to become
'organic' in the complete sense of the word - hence my 12 years for
total organic standard - from soil to conservation, from livestock to
sustainability, from grain to water etc. I had also written on the side
:energy use in producing food stuff, food miles, fairtrade etc. There's
lots of regulations and legislations and there's so many organic
standards now that fraud is very easy to achieve.

I visited Growing with Grace in Lancaster in July, a wonderful place
and worked there for the day. After 4 years they don't have their full
accreditation but sell 'organic' produces all the same.

I would like to know of a farm which is fully accredited 'organic'
after a 2 years period. Anyone?

If someone is interested to hear the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, ring he The Soil Association (tel 0117 9290661).
Organic Farmers and Growers (tel 01743 462762), Organic Food Federation
(tel 01760 720444) , UKROFS (tel 020 7328 6000).

In article , Janet Tweedy
writes
I was very disappointed a couple of years ago when Express dairies too
off green top milk (unpasteurised) from its delivery. I have organic
milk now from them (mainly to support the milkman) but would love to be
able to go back to untreated milk.

janet

When in France, I have untreated milk, straight from the cow! I give
Louis, my grandson, the same milk, but boil it first. I have to admit,
I prefer unpasteurised milk - it reminds me of childhood tastes and
smells.

--
Judith Lea

When in France, I have untreated milk, straight from the cow! Judith Lea

I was brought up on a smallholding in Derbyshire on untreated milk - it was
often still warm from the cow when poured on my Sugar Puffs! Didn't mind it
a bit. Only time it was a little odd tasting was for a few days after the
cow had calved - I think it contains "something extra" in it for a while.
--
David
.... Email address on website http://www.avisoft.co.uk
.... Blog at http://dlts-french-adventures.blogspot.com/

In message , "David (in
Normandy)" writes
When in France, I have untreated milk, straight from the cow! Judith Lea

I was brought up on a smallholding in Derbyshire on untreated milk - it was
often still warm from the cow when poured on my Sugar Puffs! Didn't mind it
a bit. Only time it was a little odd tasting was for a few days after the
cow had calved - I think it contains "something extra" in it for a while.

And when the cows got into the wild garlic....

--
Klara, Gatwick basin

On 11/9/06 16:27, in article , "Judith
Lea" wrote:

In article , Janet Tweedy
writes
I was very disappointed a couple of years ago when Express dairies too
off green top milk (unpasteurised) from its delivery. I have organic
milk now from them (mainly to support the milkman) but would love to be
able to go back to untreated milk.

janet

When in France, I have untreated milk, straight from the cow! I give
Louis, my grandson, the same milk, but boil it first. I have to admit,
I prefer unpasteurised milk - it reminds me of childhood tastes and
smells.

We always got our milk straight from the Jersey cow when my children were
little. As there is no brucellosis in Jersey, there was no danger (no TB
either, of course). Is that not the case with herds in France? I just
don't know. Back then, one of us used to go up to the local farmer who kept
a cow or two for us and who rented our fields and we dipped a can into the
cooler. Then we'd pour the milk into a bowl and put it in the fridge to let
the cream rise to the top. I seem to remember that the milk was good for
two to three days before we needed to collect more.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

In article , Sacha
writes

We always got our milk straight from the Jersey cow when my children were
little. As there is no brucellosis in Jersey, there was no danger (no TB
either, of course). Is that not the case with herds in France?

I really don't know, perhaps I don't need to boil it after all. I get
it in a 2 litre pot and leave it in the fridge to cool, the amount of
cream on top is enormous. It lasts several days; however, when we have
friends and family to stay, I have to make twice daily visits to the
dairy (30 seconds away!). I would be interested in knowing if I need to
boil it or not.

I just
don't know. Back then, one of us used to go up to the local farmer who kept
a cow or two for us and who rented our fields and we dipped a can into the
cooler. Then we'd pour the milk into a bowl and put it in the fridge to let
the cream rise to the top. I seem to remember that the milk was good for
two to three days before we needed to collect more.

I can remember that on the West Coast of Ireland when I was sent with a
can to pick up the milk and I dipped this thing into the top. I can
also remember that my mother sent me back once because the milk was
tinged with blood - after that my elder sister had to go and collect it
because she "has more sense than you!" Lovely memories are evoked
simply by a discussion on allotments.

--
Judith Lea

In reply to Judith Lea ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

In article , Sacha
writes

We always got our milk straight from the Jersey cow when my children
were little. As there is no brucellosis in Jersey, there was no
danger (no TB either, of course). Is that not the case with herds
in France?

I really don't know, perhaps I don't need to boil it after all. I get
it in a 2 litre pot and leave it in the fridge to cool, the amount of
cream on top is enormous. It lasts several days; however, when we
have friends and family to stay, I have to make twice daily visits to
the dairy (30 seconds away!). I would be interested in knowing if I
need to boil it or not.

I just
don't know. Back then, one of us used to go up to the local farmer
who kept a cow or two for us and who rented our fields and we dipped
a can into the cooler. Then we'd pour the milk into a bowl and put
it in the fridge to let the cream rise to the top. I seem to
remember that the milk was good for two to three days before we
needed to collect more.

I can remember that on the West Coast of Ireland when I was sent with
a can to pick up the milk and I dipped this thing into the top. I can
also remember that my mother sent me back once because the milk was
tinged with blood - after that my elder sister had to go and collect
it because she "has more sense than you!" Lovely memories are evoked
simply by a discussion on allotments.

I worked in the allotment shoppe that my dad ran, when I was 14-15. That was
a VERY long time ago. We used to get advice from the customers and then pass
it on to the next customer ...

So don't believe everything I say.

On 13/9/06 11:30, in article , "Judith
Lea" wrote:

In article , Sacha
writes

We always got our milk straight from the Jersey cow when my children were
little. As there is no brucellosis in Jersey, there was no danger (no TB
either, of course). Is that not the case with herds in France?

I really don't know, perhaps I don't need to boil it after all. I get
it in a 2 litre pot and leave it in the fridge to cool, the amount of
cream on top is enormous. It lasts several days; however, when we have
friends and family to stay, I have to make twice daily visits to the
dairy (30 seconds away!). I would be interested in knowing if I need to
boil it or not.

Do the people you get it from boil it? If not, you probably don't have to.
And it should be fairly easy to find out the state of brucellosis and TB in
French dairy herds, I should think. Perhaps a farmer or vet urgler might
know?

I just
don't know. Back then, one of us used to go up to the local farmer who kept
a cow or two for us and who rented our fields and we dipped a can into the
cooler. Then we'd pour the milk into a bowl and put it in the fridge to let
the cream rise to the top. I seem to remember that the milk was good for
two to three days before we needed to collect more.

I can remember that on the West Coast of Ireland when I was sent with a
can to pick up the milk and I dipped this thing into the top. I can
also remember that my mother sent me back once because the milk was
tinged with blood - after that my elder sister had to go and collect it
because she "has more sense than you!" Lovely memories are evoked
simply by a discussion on allotments.

;-) Fetching the milk was fun and the children loved doing it, too. They
used to thank the cows, known forever more as 'mookies'!
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

Sacha wrote:
;-) Fetching the milk was fun and the children loved doing it, too. They
used to thank the cows, known forever more as 'mookies'!

I recently found my milk 'bidon' amongst the things my aunt left when
she died this spring. I had mine, when I lived with my grand parents,
aged 3 till 12, because it was smaller and lighter, but also I used to
get spooked when going down the lane in the dark and always dropped it.
This summer my kids went to fetch the milk, using the same lane as I
did - but the 'bidon' is now made of plastic, pink and yellow with a
huge logo on it and a screw top on ...