Hi group,

although been growing veggies in my back garden for some time have just
aquired an allotment or part of an allotment 126 sq m. which I believe is 10
rods by 5 please correct me if I'm wrong.

Although it is not a total nightmare the ground appears to have been turned
over at some stage and then left with the resulting high grass of about 4
inches.
I want to get it ready for planting spring of next year.
Whilst I want it to be as perfect as possible for planting, well turned
over, no weeds no grass, fine soil etc I want to try and be as energy
efficient as possible - I have a lot on in the next 6 months and although
desperate for an allotment want to get it ready in as little time as
possible. Didn't want to give this opportunity up as it is literally dead
mans shoes or the people already established hear one is being given up and
then ring the council and ask to take it over with some people having 3 or 4
allotments - very greedy me thinks!
Anyway back to the chase - any tips on getting the ground ready for spring
next year as efficiently as possible - without getting someone else in to
prepare it after all the joy of home grown veg is the preparation and love
that is put into the soil.
Please be gentle - I have just signed the agreement to post tomorrow and
intend spending tomorrow and friday of this week up on site.

thanks in advance

Alan

"Alan McKenzie" wrote in message
...
Hi group,

although been growing veggies in my back garden for some time have just
aquired an allotment or part of an allotment 126 sq m. which I believe is
10
rods by 5 please correct me if I'm wrong.

Although it is not a total nightmare the ground appears to have been
turned
over at some stage and then left with the resulting high grass of about 4
inches.
I want to get it ready for planting spring of next year.
Whilst I want it to be as perfect as possible for planting, well turned
over, no weeds no grass, fine soil etc I want to try and be as energy
efficient as possible - I have a lot on in the next 6 months and although
desperate for an allotment want to get it ready in as little time as
possible. Didn't want to give this opportunity up as it is literally dead
mans shoes or the people already established hear one is being given up
and
then ring the council and ask to take it over with some people having 3 or
4
allotments - very greedy me thinks!
Anyway back to the chase - any tips on getting the ground ready for spring
next year as efficiently as possible - without getting someone else in to
prepare it after all the joy of home grown veg is the preparation and love
that is put into the soil.
Please be gentle - I have just signed the agreement to post tomorrow and
intend spending tomorrow and friday of this week up on site.

thanks in advance

Alan

Sodium Chlorate.
Total vegetation killer - cannot grow anything for six months.

Water it in.

Leave it for a week or two for the vegetation to die down.

Rough dig (Rotorvate once)

Leave for winter frosts.

Dig again in early spring to produce a fine tilth/Rotorvate gently.

Or the organic route:

Buy some black plastic sheeting, cover the entire plot. Or use hessian
backed carpet.

Uncover a small square,
Dig well, removing weeds and roots by hand.
Plant something in the space you just cleared.
Repeat until entire plot is under cultivation

Doing one or two square metres/yards each visit should only take about an
hour and a half to two hours.
But remember to plant each square immediately you have cleared it.
Winter cabbage, spring greens, hardy lettuce etc etc

Use some fleece material to keep the ground warm and you could be planting
now and harvesting at Christmas.

Depends how much time you can afford to spend over the next six months.

Dave

In reply to Janet Baraclough ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

The message k
from "Someone Here" contains these words:


"Alan McKenzie" wrote in message
...
have just
aquired an allotment
I want to get it ready for planting spring of next year.

Sodium Chlorate.
Total vegetation killer - cannot grow anything for six months.

Water it in.

Leave it for a week or two for the vegetation to die down.

Please don't follow this advice; it will be very obvious to
neighbouring alottmenters what you have done and won't make you
popular. Sodium chlorate is retained in soil for a long time,
possibly much longer than 6 months depending on the soil.type. It may
affect plants growing some distance away of they have far-reaching
feeder roots (such as, the plum tree on next door's plot.) It's also
toxic to birds, and people.

When I had an allotment there were very strict rules on the use of
chemicals. Damaging an adjoining plot/ polluting other peoples crops
meant instant eviction. Best to check your agreement.

Janet.

In addition, if you grow veg in NaClO3-treated soil I wouldn't eat it.

Glyphosate?

Uncle Marvo wrote:
Glyphosate?

There's arguments with this as well. Chemical free soil is the only way
)

In reply to La Puce ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

Uncle Marvo wrote:
Glyphosate?

There's arguments with this as well. Chemical free soil is the only
way
o)

I'd heard that Glyphosate is naughty, but it was recommended to me by a chap
who does loads of voluntary work for the NT, and he is a Dr of some clever
stuff to do with biology, so I assumed he would be a good source of fact. It
is systemic so only affects the plants through their ingesting (wrong word,
I know) it through the leaves, and it causes proper death of the plant so
destroys the roots, AIUI. The other alternative, I guess, is a rotavator or
good old fashioned hard work :-)

I would be really grateful for some details on the arguments before I start
my genocidal activities (hopefully this afternoon). A chap named
copyright.upsidedownquestionmark.copyright in this froup did say not to use
it, but then he was just a rude ignorant american, so I duly took no notice.

I listen to all arguments, until I realise that I'm listening to someone who
knows less than me.

Uncle Marvo wrote:
(snip)
I listen to all arguments, until I realise that I'm listening to someone who
knows less than me.

I don't know more than you - but pay attention all the same. First,
glyphosate is a chemical. That, to me, is enough. Systematic it may be,
but some say that some plants will become resistant and then spread and
then we'll get weeds everywhere resistant to Roundup or whatever which
then will spread to veggies etc. Myth? I don't know. I don't care. If I
get more weeds because you guys can't be bothered bending down and
picking up the plants you don't like and which you call weeds - won't
make much difference to me because I do that already. Second, and
last, I don't like change. I don't like change and I'm worried of new
stuff. I'm not a biologist - though I got the RHS2, I'm even a Permie
now and I garden since I'm *that* high. I have no need to tame nature -
no need to get obsessed with weeds either. To me it's a bonus if I get
lots of crocosmia on one side of the garden - though it grows at the
same pace as horse raddish - but which one is the weed? I'd rather take
out the latter - but perhaps you'd prefer the first one? If one plant
doesn't fight for nutrients, lights and moisture from another, why use
chemicals? If it does, just pull it out. Simple.

I hope this is scientific enough for you )

In reply to La Puce ) who wrote this in
, I, Marvo, say :

Uncle Marvo wrote:
(snip)
I listen to all arguments, until I realise that I'm listening to
someone who knows less than me.

I don't know more than you - but pay attention all the same. First,
glyphosate is a chemical. That, to me, is enough. Systematic it may
be, but some say that some plants will become resistant and then
spread and then we'll get weeds everywhere resistant to Roundup or
whatever which then will spread to veggies etc. Myth? I don't know. I
don't care. If I get more weeds because you guys can't be bothered
bending down and picking up the plants you don't like and which you
call weeds - won't make much difference to me because I do that
already. Second, and last, I don't like change. I don't like change
and I'm worried of new stuff. I'm not a biologist - though I got the
RHS2, I'm even a Permie now and I garden since I'm *that* high. I
have no need to tame nature - no need to get obsessed with weeds
either. To me it's a bonus if I get lots of crocosmia on one side of
the garden - though it grows at the same pace as horse raddish - but
which one is the weed? I'd rather take out the latter - but perhaps
you'd prefer the first one? If one plant doesn't fight for nutrients,
lights and moisture from another, why use chemicals? If it does, just
pull it out. Simple.

I hope this is scientific enough for you )

hm. A good argument. I shall reply tomorrow, for today I need to go and
Glyphosate the mooring^W^W^W see my parents.

I will look up what a RHS2 & Permie are first ;-)

There are chemicals and chemicals, it is a question of degree of toxicity
and using the right chemical in the correct way in the correct place.
Someone suggested using Sodium Chlorate on a veg plot - to me that is way
over the top. Not only would it kill the weeds but also probably the
earthworms and beneficial insects and remain in the soil exhibiting its
toxicity for many months.

I use Glyphosate and bramble specific weedkillers (reluctantly) in some
heavily weeded areas. Our land had been left untouched by the previous
owners for approx 15 years and was a jungle of brambles, bindweed, knettles,
docks, thistles and elder flower trees etc. My "garden" is over an acre in
size and I simply don't have the time, physical health or inclination to be
bent double "weeding" that area by hand. Chemicals are just another 'tool'
in the garden shed and can do a good job when used correctly.

--
David
.... Email address on website http://www.avisoft.co.uk
.... Blog at http://dlts-french-adventures.blogspot.com/

On 4 Sep 2006 07:17:33 -0700, La Puce wrote:

Uncle Marvo wrote:
(snip)

I listen to all arguments, until I realise that I'm listening to someone who
knows less than me.

I don't know more than you - but pay attention all the same. First,
glyphosate is a chemical. That, to me, is enough.

Water is a chemical too. I bet that's not enough to stop you watering your
plants though.

Andy Spragg wrote:
Water is a chemical too. I bet that's not enough to stop you watering your
plants though.

) Sure. And that's very much what I'm told everytime I go on about
chemicals and usually by those who use them! But ... see my post to
David In Normandy.

David (in Normandy) wrote:
There are chemicals and chemicals, it is a question of degree of toxicity
and using the right chemical in the correct way in the correct place.
Someone suggested using Sodium Chlorate on a veg plot - to me that is way
over the top. Not only would it kill the weeds but also probably the
earthworms and beneficial insects and remain in the soil exhibiting its
toxicity for many months.

Agreed entirely. Also - it does take 12 years for a farmer to switch to
organic farming because it takes that long for the soil to recover.
When I knew this I compared it to the average urban garden and my heart
sank.

Did you know ... Soil Association wrote: "around 31,000 tonnes of
chemicals are used in farming in the UK each year to kill weeds,
insects and other pests that attack crops and, in 2004, 40% of the
fruit, vegetable and bread samples tested in the UK contained
pesticides. There is very little control over how these chemicals are
used in the non-organic sector and in what quantities or combinations".


Again, in the context of an urban garden, or small rural garden, just
imagine the damage amateurs are doing to the soil and their
environment. What bother me most is the fact that chemicals
manufacturers change the names of the products when that product has
had a bad press, as Roundup has had!

I use Glyphosate and bramble specific weedkillers (reluctantly) in some
heavily weeded areas. Our land had been left untouched by the previous
owners for approx 15 years and was a jungle of brambles, bindweed, knettles,
docks, thistles and elder flower trees etc. My "garden" is over an acre in
size and I simply don't have the time, physical health or inclination to be
bent double "weeding" that area by hand. Chemicals are just another 'tool'
in the garden shed and can do a good job when used correctly.

You've got 1 acre and understandably you feel you need help. But I
walked around 1 acre this morning, to see for myself what I would do.
Surely you do not 'cultivate' 1 acre with food crops!? Therefore, you
don't need to eradicate all your brambles and nettles. Why not just
keep pockets of natural habitats which will be, as you know, beneficial
to your garden and environment and just cut out by hand, dig out by
hand, what you feel is too much.

Why do you feel you need to see a result quickly? Why the hurry? We
admire cottage gardens, French gardens for their variety, coulour and
'wild' look. Do you think this is achieved by using chemicals? Off
course not. It's achieved with patience and understanding, and with the
help of pollinating insects.

I do not disagree with you, but I think that if you would remove the
glyphosate from your shed, you'd be so perfect )

Martin wrote:
Did you know that it was/is normal to dump coal fire ash on UK gardens
and as a result some gardens are full of heavy metals and other
nasties? There was a scare in York recently when somebody had their
garden soil analysed.
http://www.york.gov.uk/cgi-bin/wn_document.pl?type=7214
"Patrick Scott, director of Learning, Culture and Children's Services,
at the council, said: "Finding higher than average concentrations of
certain heavy metals in old gardens and allotments is quite common
because people used to use ash from fires as a fertiliser. The school
playing field is on the site of an old waste tip, which may also
result in higher levels of some substances."

Blimey .... their 'Advice' at the end of the page is frightening. But
then again, gardens are dangerous places, plants are poisonnous etc. I
got poisonned once and I'm more careful now. I am however wondering why
the levels of lead and arsenic were so high in the past, say in the
1900s, than now. Do you know? Would the level be the same from the
ashes of my annual bonfire in the Autumn, entirely made up of my garden
pruned materials?

On 5/9/06 10:33, in article
, "La Puce"
wrote:


David (in Normandy) wrote:
There are chemicals and chemicals, it is a question of degree of toxicity
and using the right chemical in the correct way in the correct place.
Someone suggested using Sodium Chlorate on a veg plot - to me that is way
over the top. Not only would it kill the weeds but also probably the
earthworms and beneficial insects and remain in the soil exhibiting its
toxicity for many months.

Agreed entirely. Also - it does take 12 years for a farmer to switch to
organic farming because it takes that long for the soil to recover.
snip

No, it does not!

From: Soil Association Certification

"Your conversion period

Most farms need to go through a two year conversion (three for perennial
crops) to help build fertility and adapt farm management to organic
production.
You can put your stock through conversion after you have converted your
land, or covert your stock and land simultaneously. This is known as
simultaneous conversion, where stock must be managed to full organic
standards from the start of conversion.
Conversion periods may be shorter depending on the type of farm. You can
decide which is the best option for you, with the help of your designated
certification officer."

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
http://www.discoverdartmoor.co.uk/

Martin wrote:
It says a MINIMUM of two years (three years for top fruit orchards)

Up to 5 years when animals are grasing. I'm trying to find where I read
it - I had taken notes of it during my course (and had mentioned it on
this forum ages ago too) because it concerned old farmers. Sadly those
in their 60s couldn't contemplate such a long time in 'conversion
period', because of their age but mostly because of the financial
implication it brings regardless of the high yields they'll get at the
end. Laws have changed since then, grants and financial supports are
available too, however, for the soil to fully recover, it was 12 years,
and in this case I remember a programme with the same recovery period
time for Jordan's cereal company and the difficulties the chap had
encountered. Perhaps that's what I should have written and not
'conversion period time' to be 12 years. There's also different type of
'organic branding' associated with different 'conversion period. In any
case I'll check my notes at home tonight ... and will get back to you
)

"Martin" wrote
On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 15:09:52 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:
from "La Puce" contains these words:

Also - it does take 12 years for a farmer to switch to
organic farming because it takes that long for the soil to recover.
When I knew this

Please don't post sily misinformation. It takes up to 2 years, not
12. According to the Soil Association.
snip SA info
It says a MINIMUM of two years (three years for top fruit orchards)

You don't have to think too hard to realise that if it took 12 years to
convert, then certificated organic farming would be a non-starter as it
would be totally out of the question for any commercial farmer to even
try.
--
Sue