Jim Webster wrote:


yes, Little England beyond Wales, as the locals still call it. When
we were there last year Welsh wasn't spoken, pretty well because it
never really had been, (since about 1100-1200 or thereabouts)

We call them "the down bellow's". Very different from "the up above's".

Huw

"NotI" wrote in message
ps.com...
Thus spake Oz
Jim Webster writes

yes, depending on your age, it will stop needing management about the
time
you stop being about to give it any. ;-))

Wind and soil being right, it is a good endpoint to aim at for your
successors

I assumed this was on the coast, as in (say) a clifftop field.

Ie well in saltmistspray range.

If planting trees try and find local as-natural-as-possible woodland on
similar soils and copy the species. A purist may well wish to collect
(with landlords permission of course) local tree seeds and grow them on
for planting.

Of course all of this is tricky. I don't know of any cliff top
woodland.
In fact a lot of Wales is very sparse of trees. However I think this is

largely due to the fact that most of it is grazed, not because there
were no trees in a prehistoric landscape. There are of course trees in
the sheltered valleys. Those that grow on more exposed ground tend to
be
very scrubby, hawthorn and black thorn, normally very stunted and
growing sideways with the prevailing wind. However, I think you could
get round the worst of the weather problem by planting smaller hardier
species as a screen at the edge. One would definitely want the advice
of
an arborist.


Sessile oak might fit the bill. Wales used to be covered by it.

"Huw" wrote in message
...
Jim Webster wrote:


yes, Little England beyond Wales, as the locals still call it. When
we were there last year Welsh wasn't spoken, pretty well because it
never really had been, (since about 1100-1200 or thereabouts)

We call them "the down bellow's". Very different from "the up above's".

Huw

certainly I wouldn't disagree with the very different tag. It was
interesting that they seemed happy in their difference as well. I suspect
that it was a simple way of ensuring community identity

Jim Webster

BAC wrote:

Sessile oak might fit the bill. Wales used to be covered by it.

That's definitely the one to go for. I have seen these growing in poor
soils and harsh environments in Scotland, where they are the
predominant tree in old woodlands where the ground is too poor for
agriculture. The forestry commission say this:


Where and how does the Oak grow?
The Oak likes clay soils or sandy loam soils with plenty of humus.
Sessile Oak is naturally more typical in the north and west,
Pedunculate Oak on the clay soils further south and east. There has
been so much large scale planting of both types that it is now hard to
find these distinctions. The Oak is not always huge and tall like the
great Oaks in the New Forest or on many private estates. In some
conditions it can be stunted and grow into unusual, twisted forms.
Many of the remaining Oaks of the old Sherwood Forest are like this.

Wildlife and the Oak

The Oak is a habitat and community on its own and provides for an
enormous variety of plants, insects, birds, reptiles and mammals - and
that is just above ground! It is late coming into leaf giving an open
canopy that lets a lot of light through. This allows the ground flora
to flourish. A whole range of grasses, flowering plants and mosses are
able to grow and in turn become food for a variety of insects, birds
and other animals.


In upland Oak woods you may find the Killarney fern, Wilson's
pouchwort, the Chequered skipper butterfly, the Blue ground beetle or a
weevil called Procus granulicollis In a lowland mixed broad-leaved
woodland you may even spot a Dormouse.

"NotI" wrote in message
ups.com...

BAC wrote:

Sessile oak might fit the bill. Wales used to be covered by it.

That's definitely the one to go for. I have seen these growing in poor
soils and harsh environments in Scotland, where they are the
predominant tree in old woodlands where the ground is too poor for
agriculture.

I've also seen some surviving in coastal locations in Wales.

http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/l...stcode-plants/

this will give a list of plants indigenous to your region


cineman
west midlands


wrote in message
...
Hello all.

I have recently acquired a small plot of a few hectares of coastal
(cliff top) land, and should like to maximize it's benefit to
wildlife, in a relatively unmanaged environment.

Countryside surrounding, with non intensive farming locally.

Any hints, tips or ideas via email please.


Mark

"cineman" wrote in message
news
http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/l...stcode-plants/

this will give a list of plants indigenous to your region


one problem with the list might be too much information, our area had nearly
600 species listed!

Jim Webster

In article ,
Oz wrote:
Terry Harper writes

My feeling is that if you leave it to nature, the most suitable
vegetation will grow all on its own, and the wildlife around there
will appreciate that.

Its unlikely to stay the same. Most probably go to gorse monoculture
which is unlikely to be ideal for most wildlife except at the perimeter.

Nature tends to a monoculture in temperate climes and this is not at all
biodiverse.

I keep getting the feeling that when people say they want wildlife they
mean a particular set. What grows when you leave land alone is wildlife
ie what survives by itself. If you want something particular you need to
control the land and condition ie farm it.

Just how I see it.

Jane

--

Jane G : : S Devon

Jane Gillett wrote:
I keep getting the feeling that when people say they want wildlife they
mean a particular set. What grows when you leave land alone is wildlife
ie what survives by itself. If you want something particular you need to
control the land and condition ie farm it.
Just how I see it.

Which reminds me of a great article I read from this chap Richard
Benson 'To sow a Meadow' which first appeared in 'How to save the world

without really trying'. He tried to make a meadow against all the odds
and in an organic way, against the local farmers knowledge and their
criticisms, the huge task ahead. And after trying to avoid rotovating
the clover he said '...the weeds all chocked the second lot of seed as
well and that autumn I put on a hand pumped knapsack sparyer and let
the sticky thorny creeping vinous little *******s have it full on. I
felt like a rural version of Robert De Niro in Taxi Driver and I
understood in a new way what my dad had meant when he explained how the

new pesticides had seemed like miracles when they came in after the
war. He'd be the first to acknowledge the damage they've done, but
still I suppose you have to realise that ideas that someone like me has

about getting closer to nature are in some ways a product of the
technology that distanced us from it in the first place. There is
little enjoyment or dignity in hoeing weeds from 10 acres of turnips if

you have no other choice'.

He ended with ... 'I think I can paradoxically take a little bit of
pleasure from it. I disabused myself of osme naive ideas about the
environment for a start. And as the failure gets even more obvious, as
the nettles soar and the docks thicken, I enjoy the adversarial,
conspiratorial rones of the conversations I have with people who have
ruses for getting rid of them. I feel on the same side, us against ...
it.'

'What I've really learnt is not stuff about actual growing, but about
people; when you are involved with the natural environment around you,
you invevitably get involved with the people around you as well. You
slip outside that modern process whereby all settlements become more
like gated suburban communities and all workplaces are sealed off and
distant. You can learn that embarassement and failure are not things
that you suffer alone, isolated and lonely in a bedroom, but things
that unite us all, and form a common bond of humanity between us.'


I thought you'd enjoy this )

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 22:40:11 +0100, "Jim Webster"
wrote:


"Huw" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Hello all.

I have recently acquired a small plot of a few hectares of coastal
(cliff top) land, and should like to maximize it's benefit to
wildlife, in a relatively unmanaged environment.

Countryside surrounding, with non intensive farming locally.

Any hints, tips or ideas via email please.

Are there Choughs on that part of the coast these days? If not, would
you like some? A specific species of ant is involved AFAICR.

Mark/Geoff/Pete or whatever you call yourself today, try minimal
management. Mostly try not to ****-off your neighbours by changing your
name, being unsociable or being caught on a lie. Respect yourself while
being politic and your neighbours will respect you. Being an arse in your
own environment only has so much positive personal value. It probably
backfires badly in the medium and long term.
Respect local traditions and values and do not impose yours on locals.
Realise that the culture and even the language is probably very different
from your own. If you have young school aged children, do realise that
they will be taught exclusively through the medium of the Welsh language
until [I think] eight years old and you may not have a choice in this over
most of the area bar the very South of Pembrokeshire which is
unfortunately very anglicised. Remember, if you are an incomer, that you
are in fact in a foreign country and try to integrate socially as best you
can so as to get the best out of your stay.


yes, Little England beyond Wales, as the locals still call it. When we were
there last year Welsh wasn't spoken, pretty well because it never really had
been, (since about 1100-1200 or thereabouts)
I think that Pembrokeshire could be the 'prettiest' part of Wales, the scale
is more Human when compared to north Wales which has more grandeur.
It struck me as the difference between the Lake District and big chunks of
the Highlands.

Calling the Prescelis "mountains" is a bit OTT, I've seen bigger
molehills . . .

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:29:24 +0100, Albert Ross
wrote:

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 22:40:11 +0100, "Jim Webster"
wrote:


"Huw" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Hello all.

I have recently acquired a small plot of a few hectares of coastal
(cliff top) land, and should like to maximize it's benefit to
wildlife, in a relatively unmanaged environment.

Countryside surrounding, with non intensive farming locally.

Any hints, tips or ideas via email please.

Are there Choughs on that part of the coast these days? If not, would
you like some? A specific species of ant is involved AFAICR.

Mark/Geoff/Pete or whatever you call yourself today, try minimal
management. Mostly try not to ****-off your neighbours by changing your
name, being unsociable or being caught on a lie. Respect yourself while
being politic and your neighbours will respect you. Being an arse in your
own environment only has so much positive personal value. It probably
backfires badly in the medium and long term.
Respect local traditions and values and do not impose yours on locals.
Realise that the culture and even the language is probably very different
from your own. If you have young school aged children, do realise that
they will be taught exclusively through the medium of the Welsh language
until [I think] eight years old and you may not have a choice in this over
most of the area bar the very South of Pembrokeshire which is
unfortunately very anglicised. Remember, if you are an incomer, that you
are in fact in a foreign country and try to integrate socially as best you
can so as to get the best out of your stay.


yes, Little England beyond Wales, as the locals still call it. When we were
there last year Welsh wasn't spoken, pretty well because it never really had
been, (since about 1100-1200 or thereabouts)
I think that Pembrokeshire could be the 'prettiest' part of Wales, the scale
is more Human when compared to north Wales which has more grandeur.
It struck me as the difference between the Lake District and big chunks of
the Highlands.

Calling the Prescelis "mountains" is a bit OTT, I've seen bigger
molehills . . .


They call the relative pimples in Arrochar in Scotland, the "Arrochar
Alps" :-)


Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 21:29:24 +0100, Albert Ross
wrote:

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 22:40:11 +0100, "Jim Webster"
wrote:


"Huw" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Hello all.

I have recently acquired a small plot of a few hectares of coastal
(cliff top) land, and should like to maximize it's benefit to
wildlife, in a relatively unmanaged environment.

Countryside surrounding, with non intensive farming locally.

Any hints, tips or ideas via email please.

Are there Choughs on that part of the coast these days? If not, would
you like some? A specific species of ant is involved AFAICR.

Mark/Geoff/Pete or whatever you call yourself today, try minimal
management. Mostly try not to ****-off your neighbours by changing your
name, being unsociable or being caught on a lie. Respect yourself while
being politic and your neighbours will respect you. Being an arse in
your
own environment only has so much positive personal value. It probably
backfires badly in the medium and long term.
Respect local traditions and values and do not impose yours on locals.
Realise that the culture and even the language is probably very
different
from your own. If you have young school aged children, do realise that
they will be taught exclusively through the medium of the Welsh
language
until [I think] eight years old and you may not have a choice in this
over
most of the area bar the very South of Pembrokeshire which is
unfortunately very anglicised. Remember, if you are an incomer, that
you
are in fact in a foreign country and try to integrate socially as best
you
can so as to get the best out of your stay.


yes, Little England beyond Wales, as the locals still call it. When we
were
there last year Welsh wasn't spoken, pretty well because it never really
had
been, (since about 1100-1200 or thereabouts)
I think that Pembrokeshire could be the 'prettiest' part of Wales, the
scale
is more Human when compared to north Wales which has more grandeur.
It struck me as the difference between the Lake District and big chunks
of
the Highlands.

Calling the Prescelis "mountains" is a bit OTT, I've seen bigger
molehills . . .


They call the relative pimples in Arrochar in Scotland, the "Arrochar
Alps" :-)



there are alps just outside Ulverston which barely warrant being called
hills!
I suspect it derives from the meaning "hill pasture" or 'mountain pasture'

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster"
wrote
They call the relative pimples in Arrochar in Scotland, the "Arrochar
Alps" :-)

there are alps just outside Ulverston which barely warrant being called
hills!
I suspect it derives from the meaning "hill pasture" or 'mountain pasture'
Jim Webster

Ha - here in Holland our tallest mountain is 110metres above sea level. They
supply oxygen masks for climbers "~)
Jenny (living 6 metres BELOW sea level!)

"JennyC" wrote in message
...

"Jim Webster"
wrote
They call the relative pimples in Arrochar in Scotland, the "Arrochar
Alps" :-)

there are alps just outside Ulverston which barely warrant being called
hills!
I suspect it derives from the meaning "hill pasture" or 'mountain
pasture'
Jim Webster

Ha - here in Holland our tallest mountain is 110metres above sea level.
They supply oxygen masks for climbers "~)
Jenny (living 6 metres BELOW sea level!)


I believe that the Dutch can suffer from vertigo as they stand on the kerb
looking down onto the road surface ;-))

I confess that I'm not so low living as your good self. our highest point is
31m, but seeing as how I live in Cumbria where everyone assumes you live
half way up a mountain, it is something of an embarassment!

Jim Webster

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 10:20:51 +0100, "Jim Webster"
wrote:


"JennyC" wrote in message
...

"Jim Webster"
wrote
They call the relative pimples in Arrochar in Scotland, the "Arrochar
Alps" :-)

there are alps just outside Ulverston which barely warrant being called
hills!
I suspect it derives from the meaning "hill pasture" or 'mountain
pasture'
Jim Webster

Ha - here in Holland our tallest mountain is 110metres above sea level.
They supply oxygen masks for climbers "~)
Jenny (living 6 metres BELOW sea level!)


I believe that the Dutch can suffer from vertigo as they stand on the kerb
looking down onto the road surface ;-))

I heard they get vertigo looking up :-))


Angus Macmillan
www.roots-of-blood.org.uk
www.killhunting.org
www.con-servation.org.uk

All truth passes through three stages:
First, it is ridiculed;
Second, it is violently opposed; and
Third, it is accepted as self-evident.
-- Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)