"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 30/4/07 22:49, in article , "Des
Higgins" wrote:

snip
If you give patients inert tablets and tell them that they contain active
drug; the patients will report an (placebo) effect. Most of them will
tell
you the tablets worked. To test if a drug works or not you have to give
half the test patients a placebo and half the drug and neither the
patients
nor the administers must know which are which. If there is then a
significant difference between the real and placebo drug groups, then the
treatment works. When Homeopathy has been tested in this way, no one has
found an effect. This says that the effects are imaginary. As it
happens,
the underlying theory that is used to explain homeopathy is daft
(scientifically) but if the double blind tests had worked then we would
have
to accept or explain them. They didn't so the daft explanations are then
especially silly.

Des


Perhaps you're right. You don't give me 'most patient' figures but you
expect me to believe you. ;-) Broadly speaking, I tell you that
homoeopathy
works and you talk of placebo effects on patients. But the patients were
cows and they had less mastitis. I just do not remember if the programme
showed a double blind test or not but the fact is that the cows with the
homoeopathic remedy had less mastitis than they'd had before and they
didn't
know they were being given anything at all.

I remember seeing that programme (maybe 10 years ago on BBC2). I was very
impressed at the time as well.
Unfortunately, the placebo effect is even stronger with animal "owners" than
on human patients.
If this really worked then this would be a brilliant and simple cure for a
troublesome disease.
Homeopathy certainly seems to work until you test it properly. Then by
extraordinary co-incidence, it just stops working.
To be fair, there are worse ways of spending your money and most homeopaths
probablly do believe in it.
Some alternative therapies are so ludicrous it is sad. By comparison,
homeopathy is almost mainstream.

You wanted figures for the placebo effect. It is the entire reason why all
clinical trials have to be done as double blind tests.
If they are not, then you see big effects, even with completely inactive
drugs. All clinical trials are done this way now.
They have to be. Google placebo effect and you get pages and pages (e.g.
http://skepdic.com/placebo.html by a guy from Dublin called Petr Skrabanek).


A homeopath friend of mine gave Borax (IIRC) to all her farming friends on
Dartmoor during the Foot & Mouth crisis. They put it into the drinking
water for their cattle. Not one of those farms got F&M while it was
raging
all around them.
I've used arnica for years and for me, it works. Whether that's 'all in
the
mind' or not, I really don't know or care - it works.
What I *would* object to, most strenuously, is somebody telling people
they
don't need alopathic medicine or 'real' doctors or 'real' treatment etc.
That is why, when these things are discussed, I prefer the term
'complementary', rather than 'alternative' medicine. I think the two
opposing views might sometimes find a common ground. All I can say is
that
I know dowsing works and that for me, so do some aspects of homoeopathy.
After all, nobody is forced into using either. It's not as if someone
says
you can't have treatment on the NHS unless you've tried homoeopathy first,
or vice versa.
In the medical practice we use, there is one doctor trained in both
disciplines and he uses them accordingly. I think that's an extremely
interesting and worthwhile concept.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

On 1/5/07 09:19, in article , "Carol
Hague" wrote:

Sacha wrote:
There was a vet
called Buster Lloyd Jones who also found them to be very efficacious but he
also believed dogs could/should be vegetarian which I can't go along with!

I read a book by him some years ago. There was a very sad bit in it
about how many people just dumped their dachshunds during WWII because
they were "German". As if a dog could have political sympathies....
Mr Lloyd Jones rescued as many as he could, but of course only had
limited resources :-(

I remember that clearly. It was an example of the most unutterable stupidity
and cruelty.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

On 1/5/07 10:04, in article , "David
(Normandy)" wrote:


"Carol Hague" wrote in message
...
Sacha wrote:
There was a vet
called Buster Lloyd Jones who also found them to be very efficacious but
he
also believed dogs could/should be vegetarian which I can't go along
with!

I read a book by him some years ago. There was a very sad bit in it
about how many people just dumped their dachshunds during WWII because
they were "German". As if a dog could have political sympathies....
Mr Lloyd Jones rescued as many as he could, but of course only had
limited resources :-(

--
Carol
"The glassblower's cat is bompstable"
- Dorothy L. Sayers, _Clouds of Witness_


On a similar vein, I believe it was during the war that "German Shepherds"
were renamed "Alsatians" to be more politically correct.

Certainly, being only just post-war born, I've always known them as
Alsatians and to me, Americans call/ed them German Shepherds more than
Britons do. I had always assumed the breed originated in Alsace.


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

On 1/5/07 11:32, in article ,
"Des Higgins" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 30/4/07 22:49, in article , "Des
Higgins" wrote:

snip
If you give patients inert tablets and tell them that they contain active
drug; the patients will report an (placebo) effect. Most of them will
tell
you the tablets worked. To test if a drug works or not you have to give
half the test patients a placebo and half the drug and neither the
patients
nor the administers must know which are which. If there is then a
significant difference between the real and placebo drug groups, then the
treatment works. When Homeopathy has been tested in this way, no one has
found an effect. This says that the effects are imaginary. As it
happens,
the underlying theory that is used to explain homeopathy is daft
(scientifically) but if the double blind tests had worked then we would
have
to accept or explain them. They didn't so the daft explanations are then
especially silly.

Des


Perhaps you're right. You don't give me 'most patient' figures but you
expect me to believe you. ;-) Broadly speaking, I tell you that
homoeopathy
works and you talk of placebo effects on patients. But the patients were
cows and they had less mastitis. I just do not remember if the programme
showed a double blind test or not but the fact is that the cows with the
homoeopathic remedy had less mastitis than they'd had before and they
didn't
know they were being given anything at all.

I remember seeing that programme (maybe 10 years ago on BBC2). I was very
impressed at the time as well.

I think the one I'm thinking of was much longer ago than that, though of
course, it might have been a repeat. From what I recall, the makers of the
programme were asking how a tiny few drops of whatever-it-was in the
drinking trough, which was huge, could possibly have a beneficial effect on
anything.

Unfortunately, the placebo effect is even stronger with animal "owners" than
on human patients.
If this really worked then this would be a brilliant and simple cure for a
troublesome disease.
Homeopathy certainly seems to work until you test it properly. Then by
extraordinary co-incidence, it just stops working.
To be fair, there are worse ways of spending your money and most homeopaths
probablly do believe in it.
Some alternative therapies are so ludicrous it is sad. By comparison,
homeopathy is almost mainstream.

There's no doubt that the power of the mind is a greatly underestimated
thing and I certainly don't discount that in *any* form of medicine. In it
way, it's another useful tool.
I would never, for example, suggest that someone with a life-threatening
illness should be treated only with homoeopathy or hypnotherapy or hands on
healing but each of this *might* have a place somewhere in the overall
pattern of treatment.

You wanted figures for the placebo effect. It is the entire reason why all
clinical trials have to be done as double blind tests.
If they are not, then you see big effects, even with completely inactive
drugs. All clinical trials are done this way now.
They have to be. Google placebo effect and you get pages and pages (e.g.
http://skepdic.com/placebo.html by a guy from Dublin called Petr Skrabanek).

Thanks, Des. I'm saving this for proper reading later. I have to go away
tomorrow for a couple of nights and today is pretty full. I've snatched a
breather for ten minutes but it isn't going to last much longer!

snip

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 1/5/07 11:32, in article
,
SNIP
Thanks, Des. I'm saving this for proper reading later. I have to go away
tomorrow for a couple of nights and today is pretty full. I've snatched a
breather for ten minutes but it isn't going to last much longer!

Anyway gardening is more interesting that arguing about placebos; especially
in this weather.
We have a serious heatwave here in Dublin and almost no rain for 6 weeks.

Des

In article , Roger Hunt
writes

I think the prog was
done by caving people who knew the likelihood of good exploration down
there (somewhere).


Well that makes Kay a likely expert
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

It does sound likely that it's culverted. Streams don't go underground
of
their own accord except in limestone country.

didn't you read Enid Blyton as a kid? Any avid reader will know that there
are hundreds of underground streams all over the place, usually flowing
along secret passages

--
Hayley
(gardening on well drained, alkaline clay in Somerset)

In article , Sacha
writes

One well digger I knew
was a dowser, too and made his living from finding water for people and
digging for it. To him and to his customers, it was perfectly
straightforward. I'm quite genuine when I say that I can't see what the
fuss is about.



There's one that works in Wendover - in the drought he dowsed several
gardens for people so they could put bore holes in for water to irrigate
their gardens.

--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

"Janet Tweedy" wrote in message
...
In article , Sacha
writes

One well digger I knew
was a dowser, too and made his living from finding water for people
and
digging for it. To him and to his customers, it was perfectly
straightforward. I'm quite genuine when I say that I can't see what
the
fuss is about.



There's one that works in Wendover - in the drought he dowsed several
gardens for people so they could put bore holes in for water to
irrigate
their gardens.

I've actually employed dowsers three times, and found them all
successful in finding water. But against that is the claim that if you
drill down on 90% of this country's surface area you'll strike water
anyway. But against that is the dowsers' observation that if you go and
look at a quarry wall or cliff face, you'll only see water seeping out
in a few places. So I remain agnostic.

Apocryphal quotation from Yellow Pages: "Boring: see Civil Engineers".

--
Mike.



--
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