On 30/4/07 16:41, in article , "Roy
Omond" wrote:

Sacha wrote:
On 30/4/07 15:41, in article ,
"Des Higgins" wrote:

snip


www.randi.org is not reachable for me either (from Dubbelin). Maybe the
name is too close to sounding like a dodgy site?

You are a very skeptical man Roy. Next you'll be tellin me you do not
believe in ghosts or horrorscopes.

Des


People for whom dowsing doesn't work don't believe it because they haven't
experienced it. I'm told that Randi Wotsit hedges his bets so carefully
it's impossible for anyone to win the money, even if they wanted to take
part. Dowsers have been around for centuries, finding water, minerals and
in the case of one I know, lost jewellery!

Excellent Sacha! So you'd be willing to do a test to show it works ?
Or even put forward your best "dowser", if you can't do it ?

Show it works, how? If you mean walk along a line until the twig bends
showing there's water, anyone who can dowse and dig can do that for you.

And we can leave Randi out of it for the moment, though I'm sure you
wouldn't say "no" to the $1,000,000 (that's 1 *million*), once you show
it works.

You're wrong. I think this sort of thing is a gift that a lot of people
have but some either can't or don't want to use but I don't think it's
something to turn into a publicity circus.

Seems simple to me to come up with a mutually agreeable test protocol.

P.s. it's been tried before ... *many* times, and no-one has ever done
it. [Mrs Doyle voice] Ah, go on, go on, go on ... [/Mrs Doyle voice]

Please let me know, and we (the UK Skeptics) can arrange tests.

P.p.s. would you like to suggest which mechanism, in your view, would
be in play for dowsing to work ?

I have absolutely no idea. Perhaps in 50 years or 10 years or 100 years,
we'll know why some people react and some don't. All I know is that it
works. I really can't understand why it exercises people so much - it's a
perfectly natural thing that's been around forever. One well digger I knew
was a dowser, too and made his living from finding water for people and
digging for it. To him and to his customers, it was perfectly
straightforward. I'm quite genuine when I say that I can't see what the
fuss is about.


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 30/4/07 16:41, in article , "Roy
Omond" wrote:

Sacha wrote:
On 30/4/07 15:41, in article
,
"Des Higgins" wrote:

snip


www.randi.org is not reachable for me either (from Dubbelin). Maybe
the
name is too close to sounding like a dodgy site?

You are a very skeptical man Roy. Next you'll be tellin me you do not
believe in ghosts or horrorscopes.

Des


People for whom dowsing doesn't work don't believe it because they
haven't
experienced it. I'm told that Randi Wotsit hedges his bets so carefully
it's impossible for anyone to win the money, even if they wanted to take
part. Dowsers have been around for centuries, finding water, minerals
and
in the case of one I know, lost jewellery!

Excellent Sacha! So you'd be willing to do a test to show it works ?
Or even put forward your best "dowser", if you can't do it ?

Show it works, how? If you mean walk along a line until the twig bends
showing there's water, anyone who can dowse and dig can do that for you.

And we can leave Randi out of it for the moment, though I'm sure you
wouldn't say "no" to the $1,000,000 (that's 1 *million*), once you show
it works.

You're wrong. I think this sort of thing is a gift that a lot of people
have but some either can't or don't want to use but I don't think it's
something to turn into a publicity circus.

Seems simple to me to come up with a mutually agreeable test protocol.

P.s. it's been tried before ... *many* times, and no-one has ever done
it. [Mrs Doyle voice] Ah, go on, go on, go on ... [/Mrs Doyle voice]

Please let me know, and we (the UK Skeptics) can arrange tests.

P.p.s. would you like to suggest which mechanism, in your view, would
be in play for dowsing to work ?

I have absolutely no idea. Perhaps in 50 years or 10 years or 100 years,
we'll know why some people react and some don't. All I know is that it
works. I really can't understand why it exercises people so much - it's a
perfectly natural thing that's been around forever. One well digger I
knew
was a dowser, too and made his living from finding water for people and
digging for it. To him and to his customers, it was perfectly
straightforward. I'm quite genuine when I say that I can't see what the
fuss is about.


Lots and lots of things work and work very well as far as people can tell
like Horrorscopes, Goat Entrails, Lucky Shoes, Homeopathy, Lay Lines,
Mystical Properties of Crop Circles etc. UNTIL you formally test them.
To test, you need to measure if you do better than random and the testee
must not know the answer.
Lots of people sink wells without dowsing. The main principle is usually to
sink a pipe until you hit water. In Ireland, that usually works sooner or
later.
If you dowse and find water then it looks magic. If you do not dowse and
find water, no one notices.

Des




--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

On 30/4/07 17:15, in article ,
"Des Higgins" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
One well digger I
knew
was a dowser, too and made his living from finding water for people and
digging for it. To him and to his customers, it was perfectly
straightforward. I'm quite genuine when I say that I can't see what the
fuss is about.


Lots and lots of things work and work very well as far as people can tell
like Horrorscopes, Goat Entrails, Lucky Shoes, Homeopathy, Lay Lines,
Mystical Properties of Crop Circles etc. UNTIL you formally test them.
To test, you need to measure if you do better than random and the testee
must not know the answer.
Lots of people sink wells without dowsing. The main principle is usually to
sink a pipe until you hit water. In Ireland, that usually works sooner or
later.
If you dowse and find water then it looks magic. If you do not dowse and
find water, no one notices.

I think the problem here is that I have absolutely no problem believing in
dowsing because I know it works and I've seen it in action so for me, that's
it. Certainly people can find water without it - we've just had a borehole
dug and the man simply had underground 'maps' of the lie of the land and
knows the area well.
I don't think you can equate dowsing - well, I can't - which you can see in
action and feel in your own hands, with lucky shoes etc. and it's hardly
right to lump all those things together and scoff at people who believe in
one, thinking they must therefore, believe in all. Homoeopathy was tested
on animals some years ago and appeared to work but the animals hadn't read
the books....

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

On 30/4/07 17:18, in article ,
"Martin" wrote:

On Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:15:32 +0100, "Des Higgins"
wrote:

snip
If you dowse and find water then it looks magic. If you do not dowse and
find water, no one notices.

Not many dowsers are employed looking for oil in the North Sea for some odd
reason.

I believe they have been used by oil companies on land, however. A friend of
mine, long retired from BP said he knew they'd been employed from time to
time.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 30/4/07 17:15, in article
,
"Des Higgins" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
One well digger I
knew
was a dowser, too and made his living from finding water for people and
digging for it. To him and to his customers, it was perfectly
straightforward. I'm quite genuine when I say that I can't see what the
fuss is about.


Lots and lots of things work and work very well as far as people can tell
like Horrorscopes, Goat Entrails, Lucky Shoes, Homeopathy, Lay Lines,
Mystical Properties of Crop Circles etc. UNTIL you formally test them.
To test, you need to measure if you do better than random and the testee
must not know the answer.
Lots of people sink wells without dowsing. The main principle is usually
to
sink a pipe until you hit water. In Ireland, that usually works sooner
or
later.
If you dowse and find water then it looks magic. If you do not dowse and
find water, no one notices.

I think the problem here is that I have absolutely no problem believing in
dowsing because I know it works and I've seen it in action so for me,
that's
it. Certainly people can find water without it - we've just had a
borehole
dug and the man simply had underground 'maps' of the lie of the land and
knows the area well.
I don't think you can equate dowsing - well, I can't - which you can see
in
action and feel in your own hands, with lucky shoes etc. and it's hardly
right to lump all those things together and scoff at people who believe in
one, thinking they must therefore, believe in all. Homoeopathy was tested
on animals some years ago and appeared to work but the animals hadn't read
the books....

But their owners had.

Des



--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

On 30/4/07 19:40, in article , "Des
Higgins" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
snip
Homoeopathy was tested
on animals some years ago and appeared to work but the animals hadn't read
the books....

But their owners had.

Des

Which doesn't explain why one farmer saw a 40% drop in mastitis in his
milking herd. The remedy was put into the drinking water. This was a tv
programme I saw many years ago which was frankly sceptical but produced some
extraordinary examples of these treatments working on animals. I think that
particular one remained in my memory because at the time I lived on what had
been a dairy farm, where the farmer still grazed his cows. There was a vet
called Buster Lloyd Jones who also found them to be very efficacious but he
also believed dogs could/should be vegetarian which I can't go along with!
--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 30/4/07 19:40, in article , "Des
Higgins" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
snip
Homoeopathy was tested
on animals some years ago and appeared to work but the animals hadn't
read
the books....

But their owners had.

Des

Which doesn't explain why one farmer saw a 40% drop in mastitis in his
milking herd. The remedy was put into the drinking water. This was a tv
programme I saw many years ago which was frankly sceptical but produced
some
extraordinary examples of these treatments working on animals. I think
that
particular one remained in my memory because at the time I lived on what
had
been a dairy farm, where the farmer still grazed his cows. There was a
vet
called Buster Lloyd Jones who also found them to be very efficacious but
he
also believed dogs could/should be vegetarian which I can't go along with!
--

If you give patients inert tablets and tell them that they contain active
drug; the patients will report an (placebo) effect. Most of them will tell
you the tablets worked. To test if a drug works or not you have to give
half the test patients a placebo and half the drug and neither the patients
nor the administers must know which are which. If there is then a
significant difference between the real and placebo drug groups, then the
treatment works. When Homeopathy has been tested in this way, no one has
found an effect. This says that the effects are imaginary. As it happens,
the underlying theory that is used to explain homeopathy is daft
(scientifically) but if the double blind tests had worked then we would have
to accept or explain them. They didn't so the daft explanations are then
especially silly.

Des


Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

Hi Ken,

More on dowsing.

I once spent a summer living on a fairly remote farm on the north west coast
of Norway. One day the family brought in an elderly man who used a
coathanger to find the track of an underground stream there.

I was very suspicious of this at first, and OK, we didn't dig down to find
the/water. However, I did get to try the dowsing technique, and upon
instruction on how to hold it correctly, (this was over twenty years ago,
and I most likely couldn't do it now), the thing moved 'on its own', just as
appeared to do for him. I certainly didn't 'make it'.

It might just be worth getting someone in to try this.

Keith


wrote in message
oups.com...
A neighbour recently told me that she could hear an underground stream
flowing beneath her garden, and suggested maybe it flowed across mine
too. Then someone sent me an old map of the West Hampstead area in
London which shows an underground stream passing more or less along
the boundary between the bottom of my garden, and the field next
door. If the stream lies on my side of the boundary and isn't too
deep, it might be nice to uncover it and create a natural pool. I'll
need some kind of survey to pinpoint it, of course - has anyone got
any experience with reliable people/companies who do this kind of
thing ?

Ken

On 30/4/07 22:49, in article , "Des
Higgins" wrote:

snip
If you give patients inert tablets and tell them that they contain active
drug; the patients will report an (placebo) effect. Most of them will tell
you the tablets worked. To test if a drug works or not you have to give
half the test patients a placebo and half the drug and neither the patients
nor the administers must know which are which. If there is then a
significant difference between the real and placebo drug groups, then the
treatment works. When Homeopathy has been tested in this way, no one has
found an effect. This says that the effects are imaginary. As it happens,
the underlying theory that is used to explain homeopathy is daft
(scientifically) but if the double blind tests had worked then we would have
to accept or explain them. They didn't so the daft explanations are then
especially silly.

Des


Perhaps you're right. You don't give me 'most patient' figures but you
expect me to believe you. ;-) Broadly speaking, I tell you that homoeopathy
works and you talk of placebo effects on patients. But the patients were
cows and they had less mastitis. I just do not remember if the programme
showed a double blind test or not but the fact is that the cows with the
homoeopathic remedy had less mastitis than they'd had before and they didn't
know they were being given anything at all.
A homeopath friend of mine gave Borax (IIRC) to all her farming friends on
Dartmoor during the Foot & Mouth crisis. They put it into the drinking
water for their cattle. Not one of those farms got F&M while it was raging
all around them.
I've used arnica for years and for me, it works. Whether that's 'all in the
mind' or not, I really don't know or care - it works.
What I *would* object to, most strenuously, is somebody telling people they
don't need alopathic medicine or 'real' doctors or 'real' treatment etc.
That is why, when these things are discussed, I prefer the term
'complementary', rather than 'alternative' medicine. I think the two
opposing views might sometimes find a common ground. All I can say is that
I know dowsing works and that for me, so do some aspects of homoeopathy.
After all, nobody is forced into using either. It's not as if someone says
you can't have treatment on the NHS unless you've tried homoeopathy first,
or vice versa.
In the medical practice we use, there is one doctor trained in both
disciplines and he uses them accordingly. I think that's an extremely
interesting and worthwhile concept.

--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

In message , Sacha
writes
Which doesn't explain why one farmer saw a 40% drop in mastitis in his
milking herd. The remedy was put into the drinking water.

I can think of several possible explanations other than the decrease in
the incidence of mastitis was due to the homeopathic treatment, though I
am not qualified to evaluate their likelihood.

1) The decrease in mastitis was coincidental.
2) The observers expected to see a decrease in mastitis and
subconsciously failed to diagnose borderline cases.
3) Something like the Hawthorne Effect - such as a change to husbandry
practices that occurred because the homeopathic treatment was being
studied.

(Or some combination of these, and possibly other, effects.)

The human brain is very good at seeing patterns - so good that it often
sees patterns that aren't there. And even when the pattern is there
"correlation is not causation"; it may be that neither A causes B, nor B
causes A, but that both A and B are caused by C.

There is also the "file drawer effect"; if you do enough experiments
then some will give a positive result by chance, and as these are
preferentially reported a hypothesis spuriously appears to be supported.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Sacha wrote:

I think the problem here is that I have absolutely no problem believing in
dowsing because I know it works and I've seen it in action so for me, that's
it...

Sacha, it's no good arguing with convinced believers; they have closed
minds because of having so much psychological investment in the system
they promote.

Thanks for the agro-forestry link, by the way.

Brian Mitchell

On 30/4/07 23:21, in article , "Stewart Robert
Hinsley" wrote:

In message , Sacha
writes
Which doesn't explain why one farmer saw a 40% drop in mastitis in his
milking herd. The remedy was put into the drinking water.

I can think of several possible explanations other than the decrease in
the incidence of mastitis was due to the homeopathic treatment, though I
am not qualified to evaluate their likelihood.

1) The decrease in mastitis was coincidental.
2) The observers expected to see a decrease in mastitis and
subconsciously failed to diagnose borderline cases.
3) Something like the Hawthorne Effect - such as a change to husbandry
practices that occurred because the homeopathic treatment was being
studied.

(Or some combination of these, and possibly other, effects.)

The human brain is very good at seeing patterns - so good that it often
sees patterns that aren't there. And even when the pattern is there
"correlation is not causation"; it may be that neither A causes B, nor B
causes A, but that both A and B are caused by C.

There is also the "file drawer effect"; if you do enough experiments
then some will give a positive result by chance, and as these are
preferentially reported a hypothesis spuriously appears to be supported.

All perfectly possible, though I just don't know if the farmer who was,
after all, the closest observer, had been told to expect anything or any one
thing in particular. I won't be able to do it for a few days but when I do
get time, I'll see if I can find any detail on the programme I saw. I'm not
hopeful because it was so long ago.


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

On 1/5/07 00:03, in article , "brian
mitchell" wrote:

Sacha wrote:

I think the problem here is that I have absolutely no problem believing in
dowsing because I know it works and I've seen it in action so for me, that's
it...

Sacha, it's no good arguing with convinced believers; they have closed
minds because of having so much psychological investment in the system
they promote.

Well, I hope there's room for all 'sides' but it just seems extraordinary to
me that some - by no means all - non-believers practically froth at the
mouth when the subject comes up. If you've dowsed and felt the rod move in
your hands, there's no arguing with it and IME, you certainly can't stop it!

Thanks for the agro-forestry link, by the way.

I hope it's helpful. He's very knowledgeable and enthusiastic, so I'm sure
he'll help if he can.


--
Sacha
http://www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
(remove weeds from address)
Devon County Show 17-19 May
http://www.devoncountyshow.co.uk/

Sacha wrote:
There was a vet
called Buster Lloyd Jones who also found them to be very efficacious but he
also believed dogs could/should be vegetarian which I can't go along with!

I read a book by him some years ago. There was a very sad bit in it
about how many people just dumped their dachshunds during WWII because
they were "German". As if a dog could have political sympathies....
Mr Lloyd Jones rescued as many as he could, but of course only had
limited resources :-(

--
Carol
"The glassblower's cat is bompstable"
- Dorothy L. Sayers, _Clouds of Witness_

"Carol Hague" wrote in message
...
Sacha wrote:
There was a vet
called Buster Lloyd Jones who also found them to be very efficacious but
he
also believed dogs could/should be vegetarian which I can't go along
with!

I read a book by him some years ago. There was a very sad bit in it
about how many people just dumped their dachshunds during WWII because
they were "German". As if a dog could have political sympathies....
Mr Lloyd Jones rescued as many as he could, but of course only had
limited resources :-(

--
Carol
"The glassblower's cat is bompstable"
- Dorothy L. Sayers, _Clouds of Witness_


On a similar vein, I believe it was during the war that "German Shepherds"
were renamed "Alsatians" to be more politically correct.

--
David
.... Email address on website http://www.avisoft.co.uk