Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer required
to clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.
Followed that recommendation and ended up with multiple floating frogs
and goldfish.
So much for the experts!!!

--
Corporal Jones
"I don't like it up me"

"CorporalJones" wrote ...
Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer required to
clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.
Followed that recommendation and ended up with multiple floating frogs and
goldfish.
So much for the experts!!!

That usually only happens if the water quality is nasty (high nitrite
content), oxygen levels low, and lots of rotting detritus on the bottom
leading to gasses of decomposition. A saucepan of boiling water placed on
the ice will thaw a nice round hole allowing the gas exchange with the air.
Never break a hole as the shock wave can kill and injure fish.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
W.of London. UK

On 29 Jan, 19:31, CorporalJones wrote:
Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer required
to clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.
I'd be surprised if it was. People here tend to be sensible.

On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:31:04 GMT, CorporalJones
wrote:

Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer required
to clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.

This was posted somewhere , or a report on TV / Radio / internet, as I
also learned that it is no longer required. The souce was a university
I believe.
It made sense to me, but agree that if you had rotting materiel giving
off gas, then that too could have been trapped.

question
Do dead frogs float? I lost a couple in the summer last yar and their
bodies sank.

Divingbrit wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 19:31:04 GMT, CorporalJones
wrote:

Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer
required to clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.

This was posted somewhere , or a report on TV / Radio / internet, as I
also learned that it is no longer required. The souce was a university
I believe.
It made sense to me, but agree that if you had rotting materiel giving
off gas, then that too could have been trapped.

question
Do dead frogs float? I lost a couple in the summer last yar and their
bodies sank.

No! they do not float. Just lie on the bottom and rot.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from CorporalJones contains these words:

Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer required
to clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.

I don't recall such a post


Neither do I, but I've heard it on the radio at least twice during the
recent cold weather. And when you think of it, nature doesn't put holes in
the ice, and nature usually knows what it's doing.

I suspect it's the current thinking changing, a bit like how the "experts"
tell us that compost should be aerated, then change their minds, then change
back again.

Steve

On 29/01/2010 23:42, Janet Baraclough wrote:
The a.com
from contains these words:

Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer required
to clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.

I don't recall such a post

Followed that recommendation and ended up with multiple floating frogs
and goldfish.
So much for the experts!!!

What experts? This is a discussion group for gardeners, not an
advisory service.

Janet

Apologies Janet, when I wrote "experts" this was not directed at the
group but aimed at the University experts as being the source as
somebody else has mentioned.
I just thought that I had seen this information reported on this ng.


--
Corporal Jones
"I don't like it up me"

In article ,
Martin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 11:25:24 -0000, "shazzbat"
wrote:

Neither do I, but I've heard it on the radio at least twice during the
recent cold weather. And when you think of it, nature doesn't put holes in
the ice, and nature usually knows what it's doing.

Nature has covered frozen Dutch canals with snow and the fish have been killed
by the resulting lack of oxygen.

Yes. The saying that nature knows best is old, but it has come to
prominence with the New Age cutie-cutie approach. A much more
accurate one is "Nature, red in tooth and claw". That doesn't
apply to just competition, but mere survival.

Very small, shallow ponds are natural, but fish are NOT natural
inhabitants of them. In nature, fish that end up in such things
following floods, almost always end up dead in short order - eaten
by a heron, suffocated by lack of oxygen or whatever.

Nature doesn't care. Darwinism doesn't predict that fish will
adapt to such things, as they aren't important enough to influence
evolution.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Bob Hobden" wrote
"CorporalJones" wrote ...
Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer required
to clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.
Followed that recommendation and ended up with multiple floating frogs
and goldfish.
So much for the experts!!!

That usually only happens if the water quality is nasty (high nitrite
content), oxygen levels low, and lots of rotting detritus on the bottom
leading to gasses of decomposition. A saucepan of boiling water placed on
the ice will thaw a nice round hole allowing the gas exchange with the
air. Never break a hole as the shock wave can kill and injure fish.


and you can always do what I do and keep your external pond filter system
running 365, but at low speed in winter, so water is always circulating.
Running water is less likely to freeze especially as the pump will create
some heat.

BTW There are kits at fish keeping outlets that you can use to test your
water quality, it's the test for nitrites you want, which will point to any
water quality problems that need addressing for the future.
The Tetra test kits work well but some with colour wheels can be a bit
expensive although they last a lifetime.
--
Regards
Bob Hobden
W.of London. UK

"CorporalJones" wrote in message
om...
Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer required to
clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.
Followed that recommendation and ended up with multiple floating frogs and
goldfish.
So much for the experts!!!

I recall some discussion on one of the NGs.

However as suggested already this probably applies to well constructed and
healthy ponds i.e. those with a part which is deep enough to have a good
reserve of unfrozen water when the surface freezes and which do not have
heavy organic deposits at the bottom which encourage anaerobic activity
which depletes the oxygen levels.

One simple way is to get an electric pond heater - just a small heating
element inserted into a float so that most of it is below water.

This provides just enough heat to keep a small area unfrozen.

On 30/01/2010 13:10, David WE Roberts wrote:

"CorporalJones" wrote in message
om...
Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer
required to clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.
Followed that recommendation and ended up with multiple floating frogs
and goldfish.
So much for the experts!!!

I recall some discussion on one of the NGs.

However as suggested already this probably applies to well constructed
and healthy ponds i.e. those with a part which is deep enough to have a
good reserve of unfrozen water when the surface freezes and which do not
have heavy organic deposits at the bottom which encourage anaerobic
activity which depletes the oxygen levels.

One simple way is to get an electric pond heater - just a small heating
element inserted into a float so that most of it is below water.

This provides just enough heat to keep a small area unfrozen.

It is only a smallish raised patio pond, depth about 4' home to about 8
resident frogs and up to around a further 20 during spawning season.
Several newts, some toads during spawn and 4, now 3 goldfish.
The cold spell this year has seen it permanently frozen for longer than
normal, in the first week I did use the pan method but having read
somewhere that the "experts" had decided that it was not necessary to
melt the ice I followed that track.
As for debris there is about 6" of silt in the bottom which I strain out
in the early spring before the spawn arrives.
The pond is quite healthy, the water clears very quickly in the spring
although I have a constant battle with chickweed
Will look for a small pond heater as I have an adjacent power supply

--
Corporal Jones
"I don't like it up me"

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "shazzbat" contains these words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from CorporalJones contains these
words:

Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer
required
to clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.

I don't recall such a post


Neither do I, but I've heard it on the radio at least twice during the
recent cold weather. And when you think of it, nature doesn't put holes
in
the ice, and nature usually knows what it's doing.

Nature doesn't put brightly coloured fish in very small ponds then
complain the heron ate them, either.


That's true, nature puts the right wildlife in there for the conditions. No
fish in our pond, just frogs and various invertebrates, and whatever else is
hiding in the murk.

Steve

"CorporalJones" wrote in message
om...
Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer
required to clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.
Snip

I havent disturbed the ice on my pond for about 5 years now, I used break a
hole evry time it became frozen. Touch wood never lost a fish! :-) And as
you say, it was after reading somewhere, that it was not really necessary.

In article ,
says...
On 30/01/2010 13:10, David WE Roberts wrote:

"CorporalJones" wrote in message
om...
Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer
required to clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.
Followed that recommendation and ended up with multiple floating frogs
and goldfish.
So much for the experts!!!

I recall some discussion on one of the NGs.

However as suggested already this probably applies to well constructed
and healthy ponds i.e. those with a part which is deep enough to have a
good reserve of unfrozen water when the surface freezes and which do not
have heavy organic deposits at the bottom which encourage anaerobic
activity which depletes the oxygen levels.

One simple way is to get an electric pond heater - just a small heating
element inserted into a float so that most of it is below water.

This provides just enough heat to keep a small area unfrozen.

It is only a smallish raised patio pond, depth about 4' home to about 8
resident frogs and up to around a further 20 during spawning season.
Several newts, some toads during spawn and 4, now 3 goldfish.
The cold spell this year has seen it permanently frozen for longer than
normal, in the first week I did use the pan method but having read
somewhere that the "experts" had decided that it was not necessary to
melt the ice I followed that track.
As for debris there is about 6" of silt in the bottom which I strain out
in the early spring before the spawn arrives.
The pond is quite healthy, the water clears very quickly in the spring
although I have a constant battle with chickweed
Will look for a small pond heater as I have an adjacent power supply


You can also drill or bore a smallish hole, syphon or pump a bit of water
out so there is a gap between ice and water, you will then find the water
surface under the ice sheet will remain unfrozen for several days
allowing the exchange of oxygen etc. having said that I have never
noticed any dead fish or frogs following cold weather here and I no
longer do anything about ice on the ponds (not because of the radio -
just because I am lazy)
--
Charlie Pridham, Gardening in Cornwall
www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of national collections of Clematis viticella cultivars and
Lapageria rosea

On 30/01/2010 15:14, Charlie Pridham wrote:
In a.com,
says...
On 30/01/2010 13:10, David WE Roberts wrote:

wrote in message
om...
Was it in this NG that I read that with ponds it was no longer
required to clear a hole in the ice to protect wildlife.
Followed that recommendation and ended up with multiple floating frogs
and goldfish.
So much for the experts!!!

I recall some discussion on one of the NGs.

However as suggested already this probably applies to well constructed
and healthy ponds i.e. those with a part which is deep enough to have a
good reserve of unfrozen water when the surface freezes and which do not
have heavy organic deposits at the bottom which encourage anaerobic
activity which depletes the oxygen levels.

One simple way is to get an electric pond heater - just a small heating
element inserted into a float so that most of it is below water.

This provides just enough heat to keep a small area unfrozen.

It is only a smallish raised patio pond, depth about 4' home to about 8
resident frogs and up to around a further 20 during spawning season.
Several newts, some toads during spawn and 4, now 3 goldfish.
The cold spell this year has seen it permanently frozen for longer than
normal, in the first week I did use the pan method but having read
somewhere that the "experts" had decided that it was not necessary to
melt the ice I followed that track.
As for debris there is about 6" of silt in the bottom which I strain out
in the early spring before the spawn arrives.
The pond is quite healthy, the water clears very quickly in the spring
although I have a constant battle with chickweed
Will look for a small pond heater as I have an adjacent power supply


You can also drill or bore a smallish hole, syphon or pump a bit of water
out so there is a gap between ice and water, you will then find the water
surface under the ice sheet will remain unfrozen for several days
allowing the exchange of oxygen etc. having said that I have never
noticed any dead fish or frogs following cold weather here and I no
longer do anything about ice on the ponds (not because of the radio -
just because I am lazy)

I have drained a couple of inches from underneath the ice in the past
which has worked well.
For the last couple of days I have covered the pond in bubble wrap which
has reduced the ice forming.
Coincidently over the last month I have had to vacate an extra piece of
land (approx 30' from the bottom of my garden to an old railway line
that will be turned into a bus way over the next couple of years)
clearing the space and the earthworks to re-align my boundary fence has
turned up numerous frogs, frog-lets and newts, all these have been
safely ensconced into my greenhouse so they should be OK until I release
them outside in the spring


--
Corporal Jones
"I don't like it up me"