"SMS" wrote in message
...

Of course boots with Gore-Tex membranes for water-proofness and
breathability are used by the military. You can even buy factory seconds
of the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine boots with the GoreTex membrane.

"http://www.gore-tex.com/remote/Satellite/men/footwear/performance-comfort/brand/Matterhorn/1251586146389"
"http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/wellco-us-army-gore-tex-icw-combat-boots-tan.aspx?a=545712"

Yep Military "APPROVED" NOT Military ISSUE. There's a world of difference in
that.


Also, some militaries use socks with a GoreTex membrane, though this is
not as effective.

"http://www.cadetdirect.com/order1.php?pg=63"

Again - NOT issued kit.


I'm getting very near to plonking you and your TOTAL inability to accept
that many people of long experience DISAGREE with you.

Gordon wrote:

"SMS" wrote in message
...

Of course boots with Gore-Tex membranes for water-proofness and
breathability are used by the military. You can even buy factory
seconds of the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine boots with the GoreTex membrane.

"http://www.gore-tex.com/remote/Satellite/men/footwear/performance-comfort/brand/Matterhorn/1251586146389"

"http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/wellco-us-army-gore-tex-icw-combat-boots-tan.aspx?a=545712"


Yep Military "APPROVED" NOT Military ISSUE.

"Genuine military-issue Boots are factory seconds."

This is not like "Schwinn Approved." These are boots used by the military.

No one will think any worse of you if you admit your mistake.

SMS wrote:

The test I saw the video of on-line showed Gore-Tex being slightly more
breathable

Oh, so why in another post did you write:

"In order of breathability, the ratings a

eVent
Gore-Tex XCR
Gore-Tex (standard)
HydroSeal (The North Face)
Membrain (Marmot)
Sympatex, Conduit (Mountain Hardwear)
OmniTech (Columbia). "

It doesn't really matter which
one, though I've never seen eVent on boots, only on garments, while
Gore-Tex is widely used on shoes and boots.

I know for a fact, and have seen, shoes and boots from Karrimor, Keen
and Rohan using eVent for waterproof liners. I'd be very surprised if
there weren't more.

As usual, just because it's outside your own experience isn't the same
as "doesn't happen" or "is no good".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Rod Speed wrote:
Christopher Loffredo wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I'll generally agree to that. My wettest situations (with my
non-Gore-tex or non-laminate boots) are when I wait too long to put
my gaiters on...

Still, I think that membrane boots have their place

Dunno, I cant get past the fact that the military doesnt bother with
it.

There has to be a reason for that.

One needs to realise that the military have rather different procurement
requirements. If you're on a tight budget and need a boot which will do
its stuff in a hot, dry desert as well as a swamp and you need to buy
100,000 pairs then that makes for a rather different evaluation job than
a person getting boots for their particular situation, and maybe another
pair for others.

I'd agree with Christopher that they do have their place: just bought a
pair of lined shoes for not-quite 7 yo daughter, because she goes a lot
slower than Mum & Dad and if her feet get wet at this time of year
they'll probably (certainly, this particular year) get very cold too.
The sort of damp that we shrug off as immaterial can really start to
wear her down if she's in her trainers and lead to a bad experience
which means less interested in walking next time.

(being a bit of a Devil's advocate here) and I might eventually
pick up another pair for short & extremely wet situations.

I just dont bother with sodden situations myself.

I do them a lot, because I go orienteering. And pretty much hardly
anyone bothers with waterproof shoes because if you're going to get wet
feet anyway (and you are if you're in a big hurry through a marsh) then
good drainage makes more sense than a membrane.

You can't really expect to go out in Scotland and not get submerged from
time to time. If wet feet really bother you then you can do what the
military do, which is use waterproof socks: easily replaced (unlike a
boot liner), and easy to not wear them on a nice day when an extra
plastic bag around your foot is just asking for uncomfortable sweating.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Christopher Loffredo wrote
Rod Speed wrote

I'll generally agree to that. My wettest situations (with my non-Gore-tex
or non-laminate boots) are when I wait too long to put my gaiters on...

Still, I think that membrane boots have their place

Dunno, I cant get past the fact that the military doesnt bother with it.

There has to be a reason for that.

One needs to realise that the military have rather different procurement requirements.

We'll see...

If you're on a tight budget

They arent with other military hardware. Boots are a tiny part of any military budget.

and need a boot which will do its stuff in a hot, dry desert as well as a swamp

You dont have to have just one boot for all situations.

They clearly dont do that with other military clothing.

and you need to buy 100,000 pairs then that makes for a
rather different evaluation job than a person getting boots
for their particular situation, and maybe another pair for others.

No reason why the military cant do that too, just
like they do with other articles of military clothing
like what is used for the upper parts of the body.

I'd agree with Christopher that they do have their place: just bought
a pair of lined shoes for not-quite 7 yo daughter, because she goes
a lot slower than Mum & Dad and if her feet get wet at this time of
year they'll probably (certainly, this particular year) get very cold too.

Lined boots arent the only way to avoid wet feet and
as others have pointed out, most of the water comes
in over the top, and that is true in spades of little kids.

They are likely better off with wellies used in wet weather.

The sort of damp that we shrug off as immaterial can really
start to wear her down if she's in her trainers and lead to a bad
experience which means less interested in walking next time.

Sure, but trainers arent the only alternative to lined boots.

(being a bit of a Devil's advocate here) and I might eventually
pick up another pair for short & extremely wet situations.

I just dont bother with sodden situations myself.

I do them a lot, because I go orienteering. And pretty much hardly
anyone bothers with waterproof shoes because if you're going to
get wet feet anyway (and you are if you're in a big hurry through a
marsh) then good drainage makes more sense than a membrane.

I'm not silly enough to charge thru marshes.

And even if I was, water coming in over the top is much more
of a problem than water getting thru the body of the boot.

You can't really expect to go out in Scotland
and not get submerged from time to time.

Sure, but most of us dont go anywhere near there.

Clearly those who 'live' there have less choice on that.

But there is no reason why those of us who live in much
less sodden places should bother with lined boots.

If wet feet really bother you then you can do what the military do,
which is use waterproof socks: easily replaced (unlike a boot liner),

Precisely.

and easy to not wear them on a nice day when an extra plastic
bag around your foot is just asking for uncomfortable sweating.

Precisely. Much more practical than lined boots.

I mentioned boots because i'm that old that when my last pair were lost
(stolen from my car) they did not even make the modern type of stylish items
so prevalent today.

Thanks to all for your responses. so many conficting opinions i'm going
straight into therapy.

i've decided to go for so called trail shoes. with no goretex. and am
interested in the idea of waterproof socks (which i wont use in the warm
weather).

somebody mentioned sketchers and there is a big sketchers shop in oxford st
with hundreds of different items. on their web site it says they do a
punisher 3 trail shoe (where somewhere else it said it was their most
popular item).

i went into the sketchers shop and the manager did not know about the
punisher 3 trail shoe. i said what other trail shoes do you have and he
asked me what a trail shoe was? (they are listed on sketchers web site)
sigh

i went over the road to john lewis and they had a small selection of trail
shoes, but nothing suited me. so i will try the punisher 3 if i can find it
or another trail shoe without goretex or waterproof membrane.

i will have to re-read all through the posts to see if there is a trail shoe
mentioned by anyone of the type i want (no goretex) and at a modest price
and that i can get in london (u.k.). Thanks to all.

On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 21:45:58 -0000, john hamilton wrote:

somebody mentioned sketchers and there is a big sketchers shop in oxford st
with hundreds of different items. on their web site it says they do a
punisher 3 trail shoe (where somewhere else it said it was their most
popular item).

i went into the sketchers shop and the manager did not know about the
punisher 3 trail shoe. i said what other trail shoes do you have and he
asked me what a trail shoe was? (they are listed on sketchers web site)
sigh

Doesn't seem to be a very good company!

If you're in Oxford, it could be worth trying
GO Outdoors Oxford
426 Abingdon Road
Oxford
OX1 4XN
0845 112 0131

or there's
Bicester
Bicester Avenue, Bicester Avenue Home and Garden Centre, Oxford Road
Bicester, Oxfordshire
OX25 2NY
Tel: 01869 321423
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.

john hamilton wrote:

i went into the sketchers shop and the manager did not know about the
punisher 3 trail shoe. i said what other trail shoes do you have and he
asked me what a trail shoe was? (they are listed on sketchers web site)
sigh

If you're in the Smoke, try Ellis Brigahm's and Field and Trek (both
near Covent Garden), Snow & Rock (IIRC on High Street Ken) and
Cotswolds, amongst others.

Blacks and Millets both stock some pretty reasonable trail shoes from
Merrel and Peter Storm, check them out to see if they fit your
particular feet. They have lots of branches in lots of places.

Don't consider the above an exhaustive list!

I personally favour Scarpas as they fit /my/ feet very well. The shoes
I use (Heliums) have been out of production for a while now, but if I
were to replace them my first try would be the Scarpa Axis. Not cheap
at £75 though.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On 29/03/2010 10:39, Peter Clinch wrote:


Blacks and Millets both stock some pretty reasonable trail shoes from
Merrel and Peter Storm,

There's definitely a Blacks in Oxford, at 117 St Aldates.

john hamilton wrote:

i've decided to go for so called trail shoes. with no goretex. and am
interested in the idea of waterproof socks (which i wont use in the warm
weather).

Was recently thumbing through the latest TGO (aka The Great Outdoors)
mag in Smiths and noticed there's a bumper review of Trail Shoes in
there, so that may be worth a look.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On 27/03/10 2:45 PM, john hamilton wrote:

somebody mentioned sketchers and there is a big sketchers shop in oxford st
with hundreds of different items. on their web site it says they do a
punisher 3 trail shoe (where somewhere else it said it was their most
popular item).

The shoe you are talking about is called the Energy 3 Punisher. It's not
a trail shoe. It's a basic sneaker. As long as you're not using them on
trails, or in wet conditions, they'd be fine. Waterproof socks are a
terrible idea. I have some similar Skechers, "Skechers Energy Downforce"
which I like. One big plus of the Skechers brand, at least in the U.S.
is that they have many models with extensive sizing options, including
half-sizes past size 11, and wide sizes (this is fairly rare).

If you live in a place that gets a lot of rain (and expect to be wearing
the shoes out in the rain) you should look for a sale on The North Face
Men's Ultra 104 GoreTex Xcr Trail Running Shoes. These sell for around
$65 in the U.S. when on sale.

You won't save that much money by not getting a shoe with a GoreTex (or
other breathable membrane) and you lose a huge amount of functionality.
Waterproof socks don't serve the same purpose. GoreTex socks are
expensive, and are thick (like wearing two pairs of regular socks) so
you need to take that into account when choosing sizes. And of course if
the waterproofness in the shoes, the shoes can be used with any socks,
but the converse isn't true because the waterproof socks are so much
thicker.

All the experts agree that the best option is to get a shoe that has a
breathable, waterproof membrane.

On 31/03/2010 16:25, SMS wrote:


All the experts agree that the best option is to get a shoe that has a
breathable, waterproof membrane.

You're at it again - dogmatic unsubstantiated preaching. WHAT "experts"?
Give us some citations. What's the point of having a membrane lined SHOE
when the water will go over the top FAR easier than with boots?

SMS wrote:
On 27/03/10 2:45 PM, john hamilton wrote:

somebody mentioned sketchers and there is a big sketchers shop in
oxford st with hundreds of different items. on their web site it
says they do a punisher 3 trail shoe (where somewhere else it said
it was their most popular item).

The shoe you are talking about is called the Energy 3 Punisher. It's
not a trail shoe. It's a basic sneaker. As long as you're not using
them on trails, or in wet conditions, they'd be fine. Waterproof
socks are a terrible idea. I have some similar Skechers, "Skechers
Energy Downforce" which I like. One big plus of the Skechers brand,
at least in the U.S. is that they have many models with extensive
sizing options, including half-sizes past size 11, and wide sizes
(this is fairly rare).
If you live in a place that gets a lot of rain (and expect to be
wearing the shoes out in the rain) you should look for a sale on The
North Face Men's Ultra 104 GoreTex Xcr Trail Running Shoes. These
sell for around $65 in the U.S. when on sale.

You won't save that much money by not getting a shoe with a GoreTex
(or other breathable membrane) and you lose a huge amount of
functionality. Waterproof socks don't serve the same purpose. GoreTex
socks are expensive, and are thick (like wearing two pairs of regular
socks) so you need to take that into account when choosing sizes. And
of course if the waterproofness in the shoes, the shoes can be used
with any socks, but the converse isn't true because the waterproof
socks are so much thicker.

All the experts agree that the best option is to get a shoe that has a
breathable, waterproof membrane.

Like hell they do, most obviously with the military.

Gordon wrote
SMS wrote

All the experts agree that the best option is to get a shoe that has a breathable, waterproof membrane.

You're at it again - dogmatic unsubstantiated preaching. WHAT "experts"? Give us some citations.

Yeah, pity about the military that would have to be more expert than most.

The most you can really claim with them is that their needs can be a
bit different to someone's needs for recreation, particularly when its
much easier to have multiple different footware for recreational situation.

What's the point of having a membrane lined SHOE when the water will go over the top FAR easier than with boots?

Most obviously when you choose to walk where it can be
wet after rain etc, but not thru rivers and standing water etc.

I personally dont even bother to walk after heavy rain, mainly
because where I walk ends up with massive build up of mud
on the bottom of the boots in that situation. But then we get
that sort of rain very rarely, hardly ever more than once a year
and its easy to avoid those days when you walk roughly daily.

On Wed, 31 Mar 2010 16:54:25 +0100, Gordon wrote:

On 31/03/2010 16:25, SMS wrote:


All the experts agree that the best option is to get a shoe that has a
breathable, waterproof membrane.

You're at it again - dogmatic unsubstantiated preaching. WHAT "experts"?
Give us some citations. What's the point of having a membrane lined SHOE
when the water will go over the top FAR easier than with boots?

I have had both. I prefer the Goretex lined ones. Very useful when
walking through wet grass.
--
Geoff Berrow (Put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs www.4theweb.co.uk/rfdmaker