Michael Black wrote:

snip

And your "Pro-Gore-Tex" isn't a religion?

No, it's based on facts. It's like evolution versus creationism.

I'm using "Gore-Tex" loosely though, it could be one of several other
waterproof, breathable membranes. I've had garments with several
different types, and all work pretty much the same. Gore-Tex tends to
work better because they've been refining it for so many decades,
working out the kinks in terms of reliability and longevity.

For "eVent" (used in the Rab Momentum) versus Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex moves
moisture out through the membrane a tad faster (based on tests), but
both are equally waterproof. I would not choose one over the other based
on the slight breathability advantage of Gore-Tex, I'd let the rest of
the design features (and cost) of the garment or footwear determine
which one to choose.

For full grain leather boots you can achieve water-proofing with a
product like Sno-Seal which closes all the pores in the leather, but it
effectively stops any transfer of moisture. For other boots (fabric,
split grain leather, or Nubuck, you definitely want to have some sort of
waterproof breathable membrane if you're going to wear them in wet
weather, expect to step in puddles, etc.

In any case, the bottom line remains the same when buying walking
(hiking) boots. First look for the necessary design elements which a

1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.

2. Vibram® outsole for best traction (cheaper boots may have a lower
grade outsole).

3. Stitchdown construction (not just glued) for durability (very rare
except on extreme high end).

4. Full-grain, all-leather upper (not split grain, not "nubuck") for
support and durability.

Once you find all the boots with the necessary design elements you begin
to narrow down your choices based on other factors like fit, aesthetics,
price, etc..

"SMS" wrote in message
...

In any case, the bottom line remains the same when buying walking
(hiking) boots. First look for the necessary design elements which a

1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.



In YOUR obsessive dogmatic opinion. Many people do NOT share your OBSESSIVE
dogmatic opinion.
Interesting how Army boots do NOT have any sort of membrane in them and they
are EXTENSIVELY tested in all sorts of terrain and climatic conditions, and
can be worn 24/7 for days on end...

SMS wrote:

For "eVent" (used in the Rab Momentum) versus Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex moves
moisture out through the membrane a tad faster (based on tests), but
both are equally waterproof. I would not choose one over the other based
on the slight breathability advantage of Gore-Tex,

But eVent has been tested as a fair bit more breathable than Goretex,
because they avoid the PU smear over the microporous membrane that
restricts Goretex's breathability.

In any case, the bottom line remains the same when buying walking
(hiking) boots. First look for the necessary design elements which a

1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.

As has been pointed out numerous times, lots of people, some with
/vastly/ more experience than the likes of us, prefer boots with no
liner for wet places. And they don't clog up all the pores with wax either.

As has been pointed out numerous times, some of the top rated boots (by
experts and proles alike) in the UK include the Scarpa SL and Manata.
They've been firm favourites for decades now in their various forms, but
none of those forms has ever had a waterproof lining.

2. Vibram® outsole for best traction (cheaper boots may have a lower
grade outsole).

As has been pointed out numerous times, there are other alternatives
which work better in particular niches. So you'll find a lot of folk on
serious mud much prefer a more aggressively studded sole like Walsh's or
Inov-8's.

3. Stitchdown construction (not just glued) for durability (very rare
except on extreme high end).

As has been pointed out numerous times, you don't need "extreme high
end" boots to go hiking. So it can't be necessary.

4. Full-grain, all-leather upper (not split grain, not "nubuck") for
support and durability.

There's no special need for support, leather is not the only way to give
it, and durability may not be an issue. If you're an occasional hiker,
or can buy two pairs of less durable boots for the same money, it's not
something you /need/.

How long before the stuck record jumps back, I wonder?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Geoff Berrow wrote
Michael Black wrote

Gore-Tex won't protect your boots. It may help to keep your feet
dry, but that depends on how well your sweat can dissipate through
whatever outlets it can. Your feet won't get wet from outside
water, but only if the seams are all well done and the Gore-Tex well
protected (ie another layer to make you sweat) and as pointed out,
so long as the water doesn't come in over the top.

Came back after a walk yesterday and my friend was surprised
my feet were not steaming as his were when we took our boots off.
(co-incidentally, we have exactly the same Gore tex lined boots).

I explained that my feet didn't sweat much and were, in fact, perfectly dry.

This might go some way to explaining why some people love Goretex
lined boots and others hate them. Nothing to do with what is better,
it's what suits the individual best.

The problem with that line is that no military bothers with goretex lined boots.

There has to be a reason for that.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

The problem with that line is that no military bothers with goretex lined
boots.

There has to be a reason for that.


Absolutely. And it's not just cost factor either.
They had trouble with trench foot in the Falklands - not because the boots
weren't waterproof but because the water came in over the top, which NO
membrane of any sort will prevent.

Rod Speed wrote:
Geoff Berrow wrote
Michael Black wrote

Gore-Tex won't protect your boots. It may help to keep your feet
dry, but that depends on how well your sweat can dissipate through
whatever outlets it can. Your feet won't get wet from outside
water, but only if the seams are all well done and the Gore-Tex well
protected (ie another layer to make you sweat) and as pointed out,
so long as the water doesn't come in over the top.

Came back after a walk yesterday and my friend was surprised
my feet were not steaming as his were when we took our boots off.
(co-incidentally, we have exactly the same Gore tex lined boots).

I explained that my feet didn't sweat much and were, in fact, perfectly dry.

This might go some way to explaining why some people love Goretex
lined boots and others hate them. Nothing to do with what is better,
it's what suits the individual best.

The problem with that line is that no military bothers with goretex lined boots.

There has to be a reason for that.




Probably a lot has to do with use:
If I were going out for a few hours / one day in very wet conditions, a
Gore-tex (or similar) lining would be a great advantage (and has been
for me - assuming it's intact).

Since my "normal" use involves several days/weeks afield, my priority is
a boot which dries as quickly as possible, even if it gets a bit damp at
the end of a day.

Again, use and conditions need to be considered, rather than blindly and
dogmatically proclaiming that one particular solution is the only way....

SMS wrote:


1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.

2. Vibram® outsole for best traction (cheaper boots may have a lower
grade outsole).

3. Stitchdown construction (not just glued) for durability (very rare
except on extreme high end).

4. Full-grain, all-leather upper (not split grain, not "nubuck") for
support and durability.

Once you find all the boots with the necessary design elements you begin
to narrow down your choices based on other factors like fit, aesthetics,
price, etc..

Your opinion is noted, indeed it is difficult to evade being repeated ad
nauseam without addressing any of the counter arguments. However much
you bang the drum it remains only your opinion, unsupported by evidence
and countered by many people's experience in the real world.


No breathable liner works if the outside is covered with water - it
can't breathe. Guess what happens to boots in even mildly wet conditions.

No breathable liner is robust enough to stand up to the stretching that
occurs as you walk - it tears along the stitching. Then it leaks.

Breathable liners inside leather are a waste of money. They will fail,
but if you proof the boot by the usual methods (Nikwax, castor oil,
dubbin, uncle tom cobbley and all) the liner becomes a problem.

I've had Gore-tex lined boots. They all leaked, after a relatively
short while, well before the sole or uppers showed any signs of wearing out.


(What's this doing on frugal-living? Gore-tex certainly ain't frugal...)

Christopher Loffredo wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Geoff Berrow wrote
Michael Black wrote

Gore-Tex won't protect your boots. It may help to keep your feet
dry, but that depends on how well your sweat can dissipate through
whatever outlets it can. Your feet won't get wet from outside
water, but only if the seams are all well done and the Gore-Tex
well protected (ie another layer to make you sweat) and as pointed
out, so long as the water doesn't come in over the top.

Came back after a walk yesterday and my friend was surprised
my feet were not steaming as his were when we took our boots off.
(co-incidentally, we have exactly the same Gore tex lined boots).

I explained that my feet didn't sweat much and were, in fact, perfectly dry.

This might go some way to explaining why some people love Goretex
lined boots and others hate them. Nothing to do with what is
better, it's what suits the individual best.

The problem with that line is that no military bothers with goretex lined boots.

There has to be a reason for that.

Probably a lot has to do with use:

Or more likely goretex is not particularly useful with boots.

If I were going out for a few hours / one day in very wet conditions, a Gore-tex (or similar) lining would be a great
advantage

They clearly disagree.

(and has been for me - assuming it's intact).

Even that is very arguable when most of the problem
with water and boots is the water coming in over the
top and no goretex makes any difference to that.

The military doesnt get around in wellies either.

Since my "normal" use involves several days/weeks afield, my priority is a boot which dries as quickly as possible,
even if it gets a bit damp at the end of a day.

And that is what the military wants too.

Again, use and conditions need to be considered, rather than blindly
and dogmatically proclaiming that one particular solution is the only way....

Yes, but there isnt any real evidence that goretex helps any with boots.

If it did, the military would be using it and they dont.

Rod Speed wrote:

Even that is very arguable when most of the problem
with water and boots is the water coming in over the
top and no goretex makes any difference to that.

The military doesnt get around in wellies either.


I'll generally agree to that. My wettest situations (with my
non-Gore-tex or non-laminate boots) are when I wait too long to put my
gaiters on...

Still, I think that membrane boots have their place (being a bit of a
Devil's advocate here) and I might eventually pick up another pair for
short & extremely wet situations. For my normal use, membrane boots make
sense as a third pair (normal heavy, normal light, then membrane).

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.rec.hiking & uk.rec.walking.]
On 2010-03-08, SMS wrote:
Bill Grey wrote:

I'll try to convert you Gordon - have a look at:-

I doubt if you'll have any success. "Anti-GoreTex" is like a religion.

Really? You're the one proselytizing here. Bill's trying to convert
someone. You're the one with the Four Commandments of Boot Design.
--
Chick Tower

For e-mail: arh DOT sent DOT towerboy AT xoxy DOT net

Peter Clinch wrote:
SMS wrote:

For "eVent" (used in the Rab Momentum) versus Gore-Tex, Gore-Tex moves
moisture out through the membrane a tad faster (based on tests), but
both are equally waterproof. I would not choose one over the other based
on the slight breathability advantage of Gore-Tex,

But eVent has been tested as a fair bit more breathable than Goretex,
because they avoid the PU smear over the microporous membrane that
restricts Goretex's breathability.

The test I saw the video of on-line showed Gore-Tex being slightly more
breathable, but I'm sure there are tests that show the opposite as
well--depends on who's doing the testing. It doesn't really matter which
one, though I've never seen eVent on boots, only on garments, while
Gore-Tex is widely used on shoes and boots.

Christopher Loffredo wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Even that is very arguable when most of the problem
with water and boots is the water coming in over the
top and no goretex makes any difference to that.

The military doesnt get around in wellies either.

I'll generally agree to that. My wettest situations (with my non-Gore-tex or non-laminate boots) are when I wait too
long to put my gaiters on...

Still, I think that membrane boots have their place

Dunno, I cant get past the fact that the military doesnt bother with it.

There has to be a reason for that.

(being a bit of a Devil's advocate here) and I might eventually pick up another pair for short & extremely wet
situations.

I just dont bother with sodden situations myself.

But then I dont 'live' on that soggy little island so I have a lot more choice on that.

For my normal use, membrane boots make sense as a third pair (normal heavy, normal light, then membrane).

I dont bother with lots of different types of boots.

In fact I wear what I use for walking all the time in winter and
wear what we call thongs and you lot call flip flops in summer.

I do wear the boots for walking in summer.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
wear what we call thongs and you lot call flip flops in summer.


Is that to go with the boardies?

Gordon wrote:

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

The problem with that line is that no military bothers with goretex
lined boots.

There has to be a reason for that.


Absolutely. And it's not just cost factor either.

LOL, and you actually believe the "King of Trolls?!"

Of course boots with Gore-Tex membranes for water-proofness and
breathability are used by the military. You can even buy factory seconds
of the U.S. Army and U.S. Marine boots with the GoreTex membrane.

"http://www.gore-tex.com/remote/Satellite/men/footwear/performance-comfort/brand/Matterhorn/1251586146389"
"http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/wellco-us-army-gore-tex-icw-combat-boots-tan.aspx?a=545712"

Also, some militaries use socks with a GoreTex membrane, though this is
not as effective.

"http://www.cadetdirect.com/order1.php?pg=63"

For g-d's sake, if you're going to agree with someone, don't make it the
King of Trolls, someone who makes it a career of being uninformed on as
many subjects as is humanly possible.

Gordon wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
wear what we call thongs and you lot call flip flops in summer.


Is that to go with the boardies?

Nope. They stick with bare feet.