PeterC wrote: Just done a short (2 mile) walk to get a bus from the next village. In
boots it takes about 28 - 29 minutes, but today I wore shoes (Merrill) for
the first time for months and it took 27 minutes.

I have been following this thread wondering if anyone was ever going
to mention the Merrel brand. I have had a pair of Merrel boots
(hybrids) for about a year now and absolutely love them - and I might
mention that my leather Scarpa GTX have been collecting dust since I
got my Merrels. They are so comfortable, like wearing a pair of cozy
socks. I am more of a hill and glen walker than a mountaineer so I
can't attest to the latter. I didn't think that they, Merrels, would
be suitable for walking in snow and cold weather but I was wrong. They
are tough, have a great Vibram sole, Goretex lining, light as a
feather, and I have not found a leak in them so far. They are warm in
cold weather and cool in hot weather. If they only last a year, big
deal, I will go buy another pair. I got this pair for around £80 but I
see that they are now up to £100 - give or take.
I was up in Glen Esk on tuesday and shot a short video (2 mins)
wearing them in moderate snow conditions in the lower end of the hills
on the Fungle and Fir Mounths trail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?videos=...&v=pI0PxKnYckM

haggisbag

hbol wrote:

snip

I have been following this thread wondering if anyone was ever going
to mention the Merrel brand. I have had a pair of Merrel boots
(hybrids) for about a year now and absolutely love them - and I might
mention that my leather Scarpa GTX have been collecting dust since I
got my Merrels. They are so comfortable, like wearing a pair of cozy
socks. I am more of a hill and glen walker than a mountaineer so I
can't attest to the latter. I didn't think that they, Merrels, would
be suitable for walking in snow and cold weather but I was wrong. They
are tough, have a great Vibram sole, Goretex lining, light as a
feather, and I have not found a leak in them so far. They are warm in
cold weather and cool in hot weather. If they only last a year, big
deal, I will go buy another pair. I got this pair for around £80 but I
see that they are now up to £100 - give or take.


Merrell (not Merrel) has very good products. I've got some of their
nordic ski boot as well as some of their shoes.

As you found, with a Goretex lining and a Vibram sole, they'll be
waterproof and provide good traction. You probably wouldn't want to wear
these mountaineering, but for most hikes on good trails they're great,
and a lot lighter than full leather boots.

"Gordon" wrote in message
...

"SMS" wrote in message
...

1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.


Again TOTAL TRIPE! Why bother with extra linings when you don't need them?
As I stated - the ability of goretex linings to breath is restricted by
the ability of the leather to breathe, so why bother with the goretex?
It's a gimmick designed to con punters.

I'll try to convert you Gordon - have a look at:-

http://www.explainthatstuff.com/goretex.html

I love the stuff :-)

Bill

"Bill Grey" wrote in message
...

"Gordon" wrote in message
...

"SMS" wrote in message
...

1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane
lining.


Again TOTAL TRIPE! Why bother with extra linings when you don't need
them? As I stated - the ability of goretex linings to breath is
restricted by the ability of the leather to breathe, so why bother with
the goretex?
It's a gimmick designed to con punters.

I'll try to convert you Gordon - have a look at:-

http://www.explainthatstuff.com/goretex.html

I love the stuff :-)


Well that's OK if that's what you want.
I don't use a goretex jacket either.
As I said in a previous ;post - most ingression of water in boots either
comes over the top, or wicks down from unprotected socks - in either case a
goretex liner ain't gonna stop that!

Bill Grey wrote:
"Gordon" wrote in message
...
"SMS" wrote in message
...
1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.

Again TOTAL TRIPE! Why bother with extra linings when you don't need them?
As I stated - the ability of goretex linings to breath is restricted by
the ability of the leather to breathe, so why bother with the goretex?
It's a gimmick designed to con punters.

I'll try to convert you Gordon - have a look at:-

http://www.explainthatstuff.com/goretex.html

I love the stuff :-)

I doubt if you'll have any success. "Anti-GoreTex" is like a religion.
Facts have no effect.

On Sun, 7 Mar 2010, SMS wrote:

Bill Grey wrote:
"Gordon" wrote in message
...
"SMS" wrote in message
...
1. GORE-TEX® lining (or other breathable waterproof membrane lining) for
breathable waterproofness (nearly all mid to high end boots have this).
NEVER buy hiking boots that lack a breathable waterproof membrane lining.

Again TOTAL TRIPE! Why bother with extra linings when you don't need them?
As I stated - the ability of goretex linings to breath is restricted by
the ability of the leather to breathe, so why bother with the goretex?
It's a gimmick designed to con punters.

I'll try to convert you Gordon - have a look at:-

http://www.explainthatstuff.com/goretex.html

I love the stuff :-)

I doubt if you'll have any success. "Anti-GoreTex" is like a religion. Facts
have no effect.

And your "Pro-Gore-Tex" isn't a religion?

It's not really clear if you understand the material, or are simply
spouting what you read in the books. Your cutting and pasting right
down to the Vibram lug soles is a good giveaway.

People aren't anti-Gore-Tex. They are simply questioning the value of
it in boots, indeed questioning your blind acceptance of Gore-Tex in
boots.

I've worn Gore-Tex or "Gore-Tex like" jackets for a quarter century,
indeed feel Gore-Tex wins out over the other workalikes. I even have a
winter parka that has one of the workalikes in it, it is less important
there since snow doesn't tend to be as wet as rain. There will never be a
time when I don't have a Gore-Tex or workalike rain jacket.

But I know the limitations. If I sweat in something, Gore-Tex isn't going
to make me sweat less, it's just going to help get rid of that sweat. But,
it's adding another layer, so better to think of it as neutral, a Gore-Tex
lining won't make a jacket worse. But it can't improve what already
exists, which is why there are Gore-Tex jackets walking around with
underarm zippers. If I wear a fleece jacket underneath, that will make
me sweat and even collect some of the sweat, the Gore-Tex will merely mean
I wont' sweat like I'm wearing a plastic bag.

Gore-Tex won't protect your boots. It may help to keep your feet dry, but
that depends on how well your sweat can dissipate through whatever outlets
it can. Your feet won't get wet from outside water, but only if the seams
are all well done and the Gore-Tex well protected (ie another layer to
make you sweat) and as pointed out, so long as the water doesn't come in
over the top.

There are precautions one can take to keep feet dry, and that includes
proper waterproofing of the outside and of course hoping the stitching is
good and holds up. For most rain, that will be fine. If you're actually
walking through water, something else may be appropriate.

Note that the US army jungle boots from the Vietnam Era had Vibram lug
soles, but the uppers were of a material that neither kept the water in
nor out. It was a realization that the feet would get wet, so better to
design them so the water can drain out, rather than have people walking
in sloshy boots all day.

Michael

"SMS" wrote in message
...
I doubt if you'll have any success. "Anti-GoreTex" is like a religion.
Facts have no effect.

Not at all. How about the fact that Gore-Tex only works PROPERLY in a very
small band of climatic conditions, both inside and outside the garment? I
know that in certain conditions I get wetter under a Gore-Tex garment than I
do under other types of material. Why? Because I've experienced it. As these
conditions tend to be preponderant, I don't use Gore-Tex. Period. Coupled
with that is the fact that my preferred material is HALF the price of
Gore-Tex and works as well if not better.

On Sun, 7 Mar 2010 23:46:02 -0500, Michael Black wrote:

Gore-Tex won't protect your boots. It may help to keep your feet dry, but
that depends on how well your sweat can dissipate through whatever outlets
it can. Your feet won't get wet from outside water, but only if the seams
are all well done and the Gore-Tex well protected (ie another layer to
make you sweat) and as pointed out, so long as the water doesn't come in
over the top.

Came back after a walk yesterday and my friend was surprised my feet
were not steaming as his were when we took our boots off.
(co-incidentally, we have exactly the same Gore tex lined boots).

I explained that my feet didn't sweat much and were, in fact,
perfectly dry.

This might go some way to explaining why some people love Goretex
lined boots and others hate them. Nothing to do with what is better,
it's what suits the individual best.
--
Geoff Berrow (Put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs www.4theweb.co.uk/rfdmaker

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:21:06 -0000, Gordon wrote:

Coupled
with that is the fact that my preferred material is HALF the price of
Gore-Tex and works as well if not better.

Which material is that, please?
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.

"PeterC" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:21:06 -0000, Gordon wrote:

Coupled
with that is the fact that my preferred material is HALF the price of
Gore-Tex and works as well if not better.

Which material is that, please?

It's a Pertex 6 outer shell with a "hydrophilic PU fully taped laminate"
liner. That's all it says.
It's actually a Rab Downpour Mountain Guide jacket which I've had now for 15
years....it cost half the price of an equivalently-featured Gore-Tex jacket
back in the early 90's...it's got two horizontal hip pockets with gusset and
poppered flaps, two zipped chest pockets, a hidden zipped map pocket, a hood
with volume adjustment large enough to cover a helmet and a velcro and
poppered front fastening over a double zip and reinforced patches on elbows
and shoulders..

Gordon wrote:

"PeterC" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:21:06 -0000, Gordon wrote:

Coupled
with that is the fact that my preferred material is HALF the price of
Gore-Tex and works as well if not better.

Which material is that, please?

It's a Pertex 6 outer shell with a "hydrophilic PU fully taped laminate"
liner. That's all it says.
It's actually a Rab Downpour Mountain Guide jacket which I've had now
for 15 years....

Hey ho, Rab's "Downpour" series Ceased To Be a few years ago now.

Rab's waterproofs these days are split between a waterproof flavour of
Pertex ("Shield", for the lightest models) and eVent.

eVent has been tested as quite a bit more breathable than GoreTex, even
the latest Pro-Shell versions. The original Goretex didn't have a PU
smear over the microporous membrane and that led to contamination
problems that caused it to leak. Subsequent versions introduced the PU
smear which substantially reduced the breathability (the original
version lives on in modified form as Windstopper). The eVent folks have
come up with another way of preventing contamination with clever coating
of the internal microporous structure (IIRC) rather than putting a thin
barrier over the front of it so there's less stuff getting in the way of
exiting vapour.
According to accounts I've read it does need keeping clean(ish) to work
properly, but now has a good track record in the Real World and is
widely praised by users as seeming much less clammy than any given
flavour of Goretex.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 09:14:48 +0000, Geoff Berrow
wrote:

On Sun, 7 Mar 2010 23:46:02 -0500, Michael Black wrote:

Gore-Tex won't protect your boots. It may help to keep your feet dry, but
that depends on how well your sweat can dissipate through whatever outlets
it can. Your feet won't get wet from outside water, but only if the seams
are all well done and the Gore-Tex well protected (ie another layer to
make you sweat) and as pointed out, so long as the water doesn't come in
over the top.

Came back after a walk yesterday and my friend was surprised my feet
were not steaming as his were when we took our boots off.
(co-incidentally, we have exactly the same Gore tex lined boots).

I explained that my feet didn't sweat much and were, in fact,
perfectly dry.

This might go some way to explaining why some people love Goretex
lined boots and others hate them. Nothing to do with what is better,
it's what suits the individual best.

That's one element of possible preference. Another is, as somebody
mentioned, marketing hype.
I don't understand what good the Gore-Tex did your friend's steaming
feet. Seems the Gore-Tex didn't 'wick away" the sweat.
And as somebody mentioned if the Gore-Tex is surrounded by wet
leather, what's the point?
Though I'm not an "extreme" hiker, and not much of hiker at all
compared to some here, I have spent many days on my feet working
outdoors in all sorts of weather, and done many +10 mile hikes..
Any sweating of my feet is readily handled by wearing the correct
socks. If it's a downpour, I seek shelter. Then I hike around
puddles, not through them.
When my work was outside, as it was for years, a light poncho kept me
dry in the rain, save the lower legs, and I wore "pac" boots, which
are waterproof, and have thick felt liners, whenever I had to work in
slush and snow..
Personally, I prefer to wax leather footwear that will see much wet
weather, including morning dew.
My sweat will dampen my socks less than water intrusion.
But waxing naturally means shoes/boots must be aired more often/longer
to keep stink away. It's really nice to have 2 pair of footwear you
like, and rotate.
I've found some shoes get stinky almost no matter what you do to avoid
it, and you just toss them, and don't buy the same again.
Might be a particular synthetic, or the way the leather is treated, or
even the cow it came from.
Or maybe my chemistry doesn't agree with them.
Anyway, I never felt the need for Gore-Tex at all.
But people have their preferences, depending on their experience.
I'm not at all for spending money on hype.
Frankly, I've seen some brand name hype here without much detailed
experience backing it up. And also, no doubt, some who know what
they're talking about. The problem for the OP is separating it.
Could be more costly than necessary in going chic.
BTW, I'm reading the frugal group (-:

--Vic

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 13:47:55 -0000, Gordon wrote:

"PeterC" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:21:06 -0000, Gordon wrote:

Coupled
with that is the fact that my preferred material is HALF the price of
Gore-Tex and works as well if not better.

Which material is that, please?

It's a Pertex 6 outer shell with a "hydrophilic PU fully taped laminate"
liner. That's all it says.
It's actually a Rab Downpour Mountain Guide jacket which I've had now for 15
years....it cost half the price of an equivalently-featured Gore-Tex jacket
back in the early 90's...it's got two horizontal hip pockets with gusset and
poppered flaps, two zipped chest pockets, a hidden zipped map pocket, a hood
with volume adjustment large enough to cover a helmet and a velcro and
poppered front fastening over a double zip and reinforced patches on elbows
and shoulders..

Sounds bombproof! I've an old jacket that's shower-resistant and that's PU
inside nylon, so doesn't transpire too well.
--
Peter.
2x4 - thick plank; 4x4 - two of 'em.

"PeterC" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 13:47:55 -0000, Gordon wrote:

"PeterC" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:21:06 -0000, Gordon wrote:

Coupled
with that is the fact that my preferred material is HALF the price of
Gore-Tex and works as well if not better.

Which material is that, please?

It's a Pertex 6 outer shell with a "hydrophilic PU fully taped laminate"
liner. That's all it says.
It's actually a Rab Downpour Mountain Guide jacket which I've had now for
15
years....it cost half the price of an equivalently-featured Gore-Tex
jacket
back in the early 90's...it's got two horizontal hip pockets with gusset
and
poppered flaps, two zipped chest pockets, a hidden zipped map pocket, a
hood
with volume adjustment large enough to cover a helmet and a velcro and
poppered front fastening over a double zip and reinforced patches on
elbows
and shoulders..

Sounds bombproof! I've an old jacket that's shower-resistant and that's PU
inside nylon, so doesn't transpire too well.

Well it's done me good service and is still in pretty good nick. RAB
replaced the velcro on the front free of charge last year (it has a
life-time guarantee) and I wash it with Nickwax TX direct once or twice a
year depending on how much it's been used to re-proof the Pertex.

SMS wrote:

If you're hiking or walking in wet conditions you want to be certain to
never buy shoes or boots that lack a breathable membrane. GoreTex is
one. In order of breathability, the ratings a

eVent
Gore-Tex XCR
Gore-Tex (standard)
HydroSeal (The North Face)
Membrain (Marmot)
Sympatex, Conduit (Mountain Hardwear)
OmniTech (Columbia).


Not to kick a dead dog, but I just got back from 10 days trekking around
the Scottish Western Isles (Arran, Islay & Jura): Lots of deep snow,
bogs and rain (fortunately and unusually, relatively little of the latter).

My non-Goretex (or any other membrane) boots kept dry (or at worst very
slightly humid, dry again after a freezing night in tent apse), warm
(almost always) and comfortable. Happy feet! :-)

Instead, my beloved 3-layer eVent jacket had a leak under where the
rucksack shoulder straps sit (not condensation or sweat): So much for
waterproof membranes being eternal or even long-lasting... :-(