In uk.rec.gardening Malcolm wrote:
: On Fri, 23 May 2003 11:22:10 GMT, Tim Tyler wrote:

:Rinsing with Tap Water
:======================

[...]

:In 1997 we initiated a research program whose objective was to examine the
:effect that the simple household technique of rinsing with tap water would
:have upon reducing pesticide residues in produce. A wide variety of crops
:that contained residues were examined.

[...]

:Data presented in this study show that a short rinse in tap water reduces
:pesticide residues on many types of produce (Table 1). Residues of
:vinclozolin, bifenthrin and chlorpyrifos were not reduced. This study also
:shows that the water solubility of pesticides does not play a significant
:role in the observed decrease. The majority of pesticide residue appears
:to reside on the surface of produce where it is removed by the mechanical
:action of rinsing (1).
:
: - http://www.caes.state.ct.us/FactShee...y/fsac003f.htm
:
:Washing with water /is/ an effective method of removing pesticide residues
:from the surface of produce. [...]

: Interesting stuff, something I have often been concerned about, I
: doubted the validity of a quick rinse and usually soak my hard fruits
: for a few hours prior to washing, of course this is not possible with
: soft fruit. I wondered about the effect of waxing on fruit, would this
: not seal the crap in as well, I find some waxes need a quick soak in
: the sink with a little detergent before coming off!

Waxed on pesticides may indeed be a problem:

``Most people think of only apples as being waxed with an unhealthy
petrochemical product. Debra Lynn Dadd lists the following produce as
sometimes being waxed so that it looks shinier:

carrots, organes, lemons, limes, apples, pears, plums, peaches, melons,
parsnips, tomatoes, green peppers, rutabagas, turnips, cucumbers,
grapefruits, and tangerines.

Sometimes pumpkins, squash, and eggplant are waxed.

I suggest avoiding waxed produce where possible or at least peeling the
produce. If a fumigant was applied to the produce, such as
ortho-phenylphenol, and the wax was then applied, the fumigant cannot be
washed off.''

- http://www.holisticmed.com/food.html

Apples, peppers and cucumbers are some of the most commonly waxed
fruit.

All are major pesticide hazzards - they all make the
"most toxic" list at:

http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/Reports/.../Chapter2.html
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
: Tim Tyler writes
:In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
:: Tim Tyler writes

::Numerous pesticides are concentrated in animal fat.
:
:: No, just DDT.
:
:Perhaps you'd like to broaden that to all the chlorinated hydrocarbon
:pesticides - methoxychlor, aldrin, dieldrin, chlordane, toxaphene,
:endrin, heptachlor, lindane, etc?

: Indeed, but like DDT these are all banned in the UK.

:...and don't tell me these are more banned pesticides.

: They are.

:Some of them are still registered for use - e.g. in Canada.

: I'm not in canada, I'm in the EC.

You only purchse foodstuffs grown in the UK?
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

On Fri, 23 May 2003 12:36:05 +0100, Oz wrote:

Tim Tyler writes
Data presented in this study show that a short rinse in tap water reduces
pesticide residues on many types of produce (Table 1). Residues of
vinclozolin, bifenthrin and chlorpyrifos were not reduced. This study also
shows that the water solubility of pesticides does not play a significant
role in the observed decrease. The majority of pesticide residue appears
to reside on the surface of produce where it is removed by the mechanical
action of rinsing (1).
"

- http://www.caes.state.ct.us/FactShee...y/fsac003f.htm

Washing with water /is/ an effective method of removing pesticide residues
from the surface of produce.

No actual figures were given, which is very odd.

After all 'significantly reduced' in this context means a reduction from
100 parts to 95 parts, whilst for most people they would hope it means
to under 50%.

The UK food agency recently said it wasn't effective at reducing traces.

However it's worth washing to remove birdshit.

This has triggered a random thought:

When washing plates, cutlery, saucepans and the like, we use water plus some
form of detergent to ensure thorough cleaning. Why are we less thorough
when cleaning the things we are about to eat?

--
Peter Duncanson
UK

"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Jim Webster wrote:

: you said

: : : Our taste buds do their best to warn us about many plant toxins.

: so do a taste bud test and tell us which are safest, raw red kidney
beans or
: raw peppers

It would prove nothing. I never claimed that all plant toxins were
detected - or that the efforts of our taste buds to warn us were
always successful.

in fact anyone who followed your suggestion could have ended up seriously
dead

Jim Webster

"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Malcolm wrote:
: On Fri, 23 May 2003 11:22:10 GMT, Tim Tyler wrote:

:Rinsing with Tap Water
:======================

[...]

:In 1997 we initiated a research program whose objective was to examine
the
:effect that the simple household technique of rinsing with tap water
would
:have upon reducing pesticide residues in produce. A wide variety of
crops
:that contained residues were examined.

[...]

:Data presented in this study show that a short rinse in tap water
reduces
:pesticide residues on many types of produce (Table 1). Residues of
:vinclozolin, bifenthrin and chlorpyrifos were not reduced. This study
also
:shows that the water solubility of pesticides does not play a
significant
:role in the observed decrease. The majority of pesticide residue appears
:to reside on the surface of produce where it is removed by the
mechanical
:action of rinsing (1).
:
: -
http://www.caes.state.ct.us/FactShee...y/fsac003f.htm
:
:Washing with water /is/ an effective method of removing pesticide
residues
:from the surface of produce. [...]

: Interesting stuff, something I have often been concerned about, I
: doubted the validity of a quick rinse and usually soak my hard fruits
: for a few hours prior to washing, of course this is not possible with
: soft fruit. I wondered about the effect of waxing on fruit, would this
: not seal the crap in as well, I find some waxes need a quick soak in
: the sink with a little detergent before coming off!

Waxed on pesticides may indeed be a problem:

don't worry, just keep pouring on the detergent

then go back to the start of the thread where roundup was being discussed
and contemplate the tank mixes that might have been hazardous

Jim Webster

In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:
: Tim Tyler writes
:In uk.rec.gardening Michael Saunby wrote:

:: By contrast, the artificial toxins have been designed to be tasteless and
:: invisible to consumers.
:
:: And safe!
:
:Indeed - but that often appears to be a secondary requirement.

: Not to the regulators, and they have the say that counts.

You might think - yet unsafe levels of pesticides are still turning
up in produce on supermarket shelves - e.g. in Asda this year:

``Spanish spinach from Asda tested by the pesticide residues
committee exceeded legal and safety limits. Residues of the
pesticide methomyl were found at 240% of the safety level
for toddlers and 150% of that for adults.

Methomyl is a carbamate pesticide which affects the nervous
system and is suspected of interfering with the hormone
system.

Four samples of Heinz baby food, one of Farley's and one of
Boots organic baby cereal were found to contain levels of
residues which would be illegal under new regulations.

Babies, whose immune and hormone systems are immature, are
thought to be at greater risk from pesticide residues. EU
legislation last July reduced the legal limit to almost
zero, but the six samples were taken before the regulations
came into force.

The committee said in the case of the spinach the "safety
margins would be significantly eroded" and it was possible
that symptoms such as "increased salivation, upset stomach
or mild headache could occur but would be shortlived".

About a quarter of chips tested also contained residues.
Aldicarb, a pesticide which may soon be withdrawn from use
in the EU, was found in chips from two fish and chip shops
in Telford and Carlisle.

More than half the samples of bread contained residues, with
16 of them having residues of more than one pesticide.

Nearly three-quarters of dried fruit samples, over a third
of apples, a quarter of melons and a third of celery samples
also came up positive.

Friends of the Earth campaigner Sandra Bell said the latest
results were a serious concern.

"We remain very worried that supposedly healthy food
contains pesticides which exceed the safety levels for
toddlers," she said.

An Asda spokeswoman said the company had rigorous controls
in place.

"We and our suppliers test thousands of products every year
and just a handful are found to contain pesticide residues
that exceed the maximum residue limit," she said.''

- http://society.guardian.co.uk/public...903928,00.html
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

In message , Robert Seago
writes
In article ,
Jim Webster wrote:
, many of
them toxic in varying degrees to many species.
But the obvious thing to do is eat more meat. Once it's been killed most of
your problems with regard to its defence mechanisms are over :-))

Jim Webster
The posting of a livestock farmer :-)

Regards

Bob

That doesn't make the statement any less true.
--
Malcolm Kane

In uk.rec.gardening Peter Duncanson wrote:

: When washing plates, cutlery, saucepans and the like, we use water plus some
: form of detergent to ensure thorough cleaning. Why are we less thorough
: when cleaning the things we are about to eat?

The royal "we" - I presume?

There are "produce wash" products for sale - but they have not been found
to be more effective than water:

``Produce Wash is Hogwash''

- http://www.eatfirst.org/03article5.htm

Using dish detergents on produce is rarely recommended - indeed:

``The Center of Science in Public Interest revealed that dishwashing
detergents have caused more household poisonings than any other cleaning
product in the home. Nearly all dishwashing detergents contain naphtha,
a fuel used in camping stoves. Naphtha is a central nervous system
depressant. Other high-tech cleaning agents included are diethanolsamine
which is a liver poison, and chlorophenylphenol which is a toxic
metabolic stimulant. Chlorine is a poison present in nearly all
dishwashing detergents. When washing your dishes, these chemicals are
being released into your breathing space.''

- http://www.freedomyou.com/nutrition_...ing_detergent/
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

In uk.rec.gardening Jim Webster wrote:
: "Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
: In uk.rec.gardening Jim Webster wrote:

: : you said
:
: : : : Our taste buds do their best to warn us about many plant toxins.
:
: : so do a taste bud test and tell us which are safest, raw red kidney
: : beans or raw peppers
:
: It would prove nothing. I never claimed that all plant toxins were
: detected - or that the efforts of our taste buds to warn us were
: always successful.

: in fact anyone who followed your suggestion could have ended up seriously
: dead

More reading comprehension problems? I made no such suggestion.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

In uk.rec.gardening Mike Humberston wrote:
: Tim Tyler wrote:

:A Shopper's Guide to Pesticides in Produce
:http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/Reports/.../Chapter2.html

: American figures of little or no relevance to the UK (unless perhaps you eat
: overpriced, tasteless strawberries imported from the US).

I don't have much specific information relating to UK strawberries.

My impression is that UK-produced strawberries are likely to be safer
than imported ones.

The Friends of the Earth have a report that deals with some of
the fungicides used on strawberries in the UK in 2001:

http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/briefi...isrupting.html

It identifies carbendazim as one of the most common fungicides used
in the UK.

Regarding its distribution and safety, it says:

``Residues

Since 1995 it has been detected on UK apples, UK and
imported celery, grapes, marmalade, UK and imported pears,
apricots, bananas, imported cucumbers, mixed dried fruit,
retail and 'pick your own' gooseberries, peaches, imported
and 'pick your own' strawberries, imported tomato
products,clementines and UK green beans. In the 1998 MAFF &
industry surveys, residues were detected in several samples
of UK and imported apples, as well as in some samples of
tomatoes, grapes, lemons, lettuce and mango.

Carbendazim has also been detected in processed products
such as fruit based infant food, canned fruit, fruit squash
and fruit juice.

Toxicity

Carbendazim disrupts the production of sperm and damages
testicular development in adult rats. In addition,
carbendazim is a teratogen damaging development of mammals
in the womb. Rats developing in the womb and exposed to
Carbendazim, have been found to lead to deformities such as
lack of eyes and hydrocephalus (“water on the brain”).''

The other fungicide it metions found on UK strawberries
is Vinclozolin.

Regarding distribution and safety, it says:

``Residues

Since 1995, it has been detected on imported celery, grapes,
kiwi fruit, lettuce, pears, sweet peppers and tomatoes, as
well as on UK lettuce, strawberries and pears. In the 1998
surveys by MAFF and the UK Industry (published in 1999) 11,
no residues were found on UK lettuces (it is not approved
for such use in the UK) although illegal use of other
fungicides was found. However Vinclozolin was detected in
some samples of tomatoes (also a non- approved use) and kiwi
fruit.

Toxicity

Vinclozolin is a proven endocrine disrupter, causing anti-
androgenic ('anti-maleness') effects. It does this by
binding to the natural male hormone receptors. Studies on
rats found that exposure of male rats in the womb and
shortly after birth to low doses of vinclozolin lead to a
range of sex organ changes. Young male rats exposed to
vinclozolin showed delayed puberty.''
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Michael Saunby wrote:

: So how many consumers are harmed by pesticides in the UK each year?

Probably all of them. Even organic produce contains pesticides.
Unless you stop eating and breathing you can't completely avoid them.


So you don't know. Have you any idea of roughly how many? How does it
compare with other dangerous things in our environment, e.g. other people's
cigarette smoke, mobile phone masts, diesel fumes... If I'm going to
devote any consideration to the matter at all I'd hate to think that in
doing so I'm actually going to miss the thing that is going to kill me
and/or other members of my family.

A recent study found fruit intake correlated with Parkinsons disease:

http://health.iwon.com/article/id/512534.html

The researcher's expected mechanism: pesticide exposure.

: You're stressing (which really does kill) over something that doesn't.

Uh - plenty of people have been killed by pesticides.


Stress probably kills more though.

My interest may be based on personal reasons - pesticides can
harm me - whereas I'm happy with the risks posed by my intelligence.


I suspect you're serriously underestimating the risk that your intelligence
presents.

: I'd like to care, but unfortunately it's just not in my nature, though
I
: think you really should try and lighten up - I'm sure you'll live a
longer
: and happier life if you do.

Pesticides are a serious issue. Attempting to gloss over the problem
is more likely to have a deleterious effect on your lifespan than
a positive one - IMO.

Roughly how many years longer do people live on average in countries with a
lower use of pesticides than our own?

Michael Saunby

In uk.rec.gardening Michael Saunby wrote:
: "Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
: In uk.rec.gardening Michael Saunby wrote:

: : So how many consumers are harmed by pesticides in the UK each year?
:
: Probably all of them. Even organic produce contains pesticides.
: Unless you stop eating and breathing you can't completely avoid them.

: So you don't know. [...]

That's not how I was taught to do a synopsis in school :-|

: Have you any idea of roughly how many? [...]

Yes - about 58,836,165.

: How does it compare with other dangerous things in our environment,
: e.g. other people's cigarette smoke, mobile phone masts, diesel
: fumes... If I'm going to devote any consideration to the matter at all
: I'd hate to think that in doing so I'm actually going to miss the thing
: that is going to kill me and/or other members of my family.

It's difficult to say. Air pollution is also a serious issue.

As to whether you should care more about air pollution or
pesticides - I don't know. It will probably depend on
where you live - and what you eat.

: A recent study found fruit intake correlated with Parkinsons disease:
:
: http://health.iwon.com/article/id/512534.html
:
: The researcher's expected mechanism: pesticide exposure.
:
: : You're stressing (which really does kill) over something that doesn't.
:
: Uh - plenty of people have been killed by pesticides.

: Stress probably kills more though.

Quite possibly.

: My interest may be based on personal reasons - pesticides can
: harm me - whereas I'm happy with the risks posed by my intelligence.

: I suspect you're serriously underestimating the risk that your intelligence
: presents.

Why thank you ;-)

I do my best to exercise and develop my intellect - but I find that it is
much harder to improve than my diet.

: Roughly how many years longer do people live on average in countries with a
: lower use of pesticides than our own?

Comparing risk by comparing countries is a tricky business - since
there are so many other confounding factors - and the number of
countries data is available from is hard to draw statistical
conclusions from.

I don't know of any studies of this question - OTTOMH.

Any correlation is unlikely to be easy to establish as causal -
since reduced use of pesticides, and longer lifespans are both
likely to be linked to affluence - so even if the results of
such studies were available, they would probably prove very
little.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

"Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
In uk.rec.gardening Jim Webster wrote:
: "Tim Tyler" wrote in message ...
: In uk.rec.gardening Jim Webster wrote:

: : you said
:
: : : : Our taste buds do their best to warn us about many plant
toxins.
:
: : so do a taste bud test and tell us which are safest, raw red kidney
: : beans or raw peppers
:
: It would prove nothing. I never claimed that all plant toxins were
: detected - or that the efforts of our taste buds to warn us were
: always successful.

: in fact anyone who followed your suggestion could have ended up
seriously
: dead

More reading comprehension problems? I made no such suggestion.

"Our taste buds do their best to warn us about many plant toxins"

it is a pretty pathetic best

Jim Webster

Mike Humberston writes

So, am I correct if I think that TT is talking tosh when he implies that
strawberries are toxic?

I think you can be pretty confident that TT talks tosh most of the time,
judging by what I have read here.

Given his mindset it's not even worth my time even trying to drum into
him that using 'toxic' the way he does is naive (to say the very least),
and the key thing is the dose. That being said, trying to impart further
knowledge to him is a total waste of time.

He doesn't want to know.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Tim Tyler writes

You only purchse foodstuffs grown in the UK?

Not really, although I aspire to that.

I do avoid organic produce from abroad though, even when discounted to
conventional levels. That's the highest risk of having been dosed after
the safe harvest interval. In error by 'brother', naturally.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.