The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In article , Tim Tyler wrote:


That's not an accurate impression - I eat turkey, liver and kidneys - and
fish and seafood.

You eat liver and seafood and you claim to be keen to reduce your
exposure to toxins? You are aware I hope that many toxins the liver
can't handle get stored in it? Also the levels of metals, not just
mercury in seafood?

BTW are you aware of the previous history of the land you use to grow
your food on?

There is no such thing as real low risk food.

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In article , Tim Tyler wrote:

The consumer just wants the fruit.

Where it is grown - and whether it is transported by burning fossil fuels
- is not under their control, and consequently it's hard to see how they
can be held responsible for any resulting damage.

the country of origin is clearly on supermarket fruit. That is how I can
ensure I buy New Zealand apples. I only eat apples in season, the NZ
season as I only like crisp apples.

Of course how you can get an apple to market in Europe from the other
side of the planet in better condition than local producers is another
question.

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Thu, 29 May 2003 16:55:08 GMT, Malcolm wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2003 17:46:08 +0100, Oz
wrote:

Peter Duncanson writes
On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:04:58 GMT, Malcolm wrote:

Yeah but not many of us will deliberately coat liberal; quantities of
highly toxic poisons onto peoples foodstuffs, not knowingly anyway,
and then still claim innocence.

I think knowledgeable people here (uk.business.agriculture) have, and will,
challenge(d) your reference to "highly toxic poisons".

Unlikely, he's probably been killfiled by everyone due to a sub-70 IQ
and total inability to learn anything at all.

That'll be quite a few points above you then old chum, I'm not the one
sitting here whining about how hard done by I am, because I produce
crap goods and nobody wants them.

You have it back to front.

The general public will buy what you call the "crap" goods but will not pay
for the "non-crap" goods.

In fact I have a proper job and earn
a fortune, more then enough to pay for my choice not to be poisoned by
subsidy inbreds like yourself, I choose where and who I buy or sell
from,

You appear to operate in a sellers' market - much of UK farming operates in
a buyers' market - big difference. Effective decision-making power tends to
reside outside the farm fence, not inside.

Subsidies relieve the end purchaser of having to pay the proper price for
the goods. One of the reasons they are paid is to give the nation some
degree of self-sufficiency in food supply.

You describe yourself as having a "proper job". When we get down to basics,
proper jobs are those that:
(1) produce and distribute the necessities of life: water, food and shelter.
(On this planet, the other necessity, breathable air is, so far, freely
available.)
(2) provide equipment with which to do the above.
(3) train people to do the above.

Then
(4) provide defence from internal and external threats.

All else, however important, is secondary, tertiary, ...

you are apparently too dumb to work it out, even though the
writing was on the wall years ago.


Sub 50 should cover you and the other Bennies quite nicely.

--
Peter Duncanson
UK

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In article ,
"BAC" wrote:

We all think we know best, but governments have to take all of our views
into consideration.


'Have to'? Only when it suits them!

They have to take them into consideration, they don't have to then act
on them of course. That is why they embark on costly consultation
exercises which produce reports which get shelved and quietly forgotten.

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Thu, 29 May 2003 17:59:28 +0100, "Jim Webster"
wrote:


"Oz" wrote in message
...
Peter Duncanson writes
On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:04:58 GMT, Malcolm wrote:

Yeah but not many of us will deliberately coat liberal; quantities of
highly toxic poisons onto peoples foodstuffs, not knowingly anyway,
and then still claim innocence.

I think knowledgeable people here (uk.business.agriculture) have, and
will,
challenge(d) your reference to "highly toxic poisons".

Unlikely, he's probably been killfiled by everyone due to a sub-70 IQ
and total inability to learn anything at all.

not only that but his definition of highly toxic can only be described as
eccentric, due to the sheer number of people who resolutely refuse to die
after eating all these highly toxic poisions.

Must be an awful lot of kill filters not working round here, but then
I never afforded those that claim to use them that much intelligence
as knowing how to apply them.

A little bit here, a little bit there, equals tonnes and tonnes
consumed by us all and the environment. Not good, really isn't.

After all he is the one who washes food with detergent

Washing food in an eco friendly detergent is nowhere near similar to
covering the whole crop in highly toxic poisons for months, from seed
to final produce.

I'm happy to take my chances I produce, not so happy when others
produce it.

but cannot cope with
the fact that the most dangerous thing about roundup is the other contents
of the tank mix

Shame the facts don't back you up.
--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Thu, 29 May 2003 18:34:09 +0100, Peter Duncanson
wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2003 16:55:08 GMT, Malcolm wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2003 17:46:08 +0100, Oz
wrote:

Peter Duncanson writes
On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:04:58 GMT, Malcolm wrote:

Yeah but not many of us will deliberately coat liberal; quantities of
highly toxic poisons onto peoples foodstuffs, not knowingly anyway,
and then still claim innocence.

I think knowledgeable people here (uk.business.agriculture) have, and will,
challenge(d) your reference to "highly toxic poisons".

Unlikely, he's probably been killfiled by everyone due to a sub-70 IQ
and total inability to learn anything at all.

That'll be quite a few points above you then old chum, I'm not the one
sitting here whining about how hard done by I am, because I produce
crap goods and nobody wants them.

You have it back to front.

The general public will buy what you call the "crap" goods but will not pay
for the "non-crap" goods.

Their choice, that doesn't justify the producer using highly toxic
substances just because people are gullible enough to let them get
away with it.

In fact I have a proper job and earn
a fortune, more then enough to pay for my choice not to be poisoned by
subsidy inbreds like yourself, I choose where and who I buy or sell
from,

You appear to operate in a sellers' market - much of UK farming operates in
a buyers' market - big difference. Effective decision-making power tends to
reside outside the farm fence, not inside.

Any business operates the same, price yourself in or out of a market
it's your fault, not the buyers.

Subsidies relieve the end purchaser of having to pay the proper price for
the goods. One of the reasons they are paid is to give the nation some
degree of self-sufficiency in food supply.

Rubbish, it was a gravy train for British farmers and now most have
forgotten how to do a good days work for a fair days pay.

If they spent as much time growing good quality food, as they did
trying to cut corners we'd all be better off.

You describe yourself as having a "proper job". When we get down to basics,
proper jobs are those that:
(1) produce and distribute the necessities of life: water, food and shelter.
(On this planet, the other necessity, breathable air is, so far, freely
available.)
(2) provide equipment with which to do the above.
(3) train people to do the above.

Then
(4) provide defence from internal and external threats.

All else, however important, is secondary, tertiary, ...

Precisely and if your job does not provide that you move on and find
another job. Luckily in the UK we can all afford to use that choice.



--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:53:49 GMT, Malcolm wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2003 16:44:58 +0100, Peter Duncanson
wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:04:58 GMT, Malcolm wrote:


There is a similar vicious circle involved in food
production/processing/distribution.

Yeah but not many of us will deliberately coat liberal; quantities of
highly toxic poisons onto peoples foodstuffs, not knowingly anyway,
and then still claim innocence.

I think knowledgeable people here (uk.business.agriculture) have, and will,
challenge(d) your reference to "highly toxic poisons".

No doubt they will, I'll be happy sticking to the facts. They are
highly toxic, regardless the quantity used, I don't want them anywhere
near my food thanks.

The people who have the power to break these vicious circles are
governments. Unfortunately some of the actions they would need to take are
so disruptive and draconian that they recoil from them.

I blame the producers in equally parts, no one forces them to use
poisons, they choose to.

You say "they choose to" - what are other practical choices are available?

Accept less yields per acre, a yield where good, wholesome is
available for us all, a yield that was possible long before factory
farming became a reality.

There are only so many corners that can be cut, messing with my health
aint one of them.

Remember that "practical" includes issues of cost and saleability.

Practical ends as far as I am concerned when it's a choice between
poisoning people or not.

If you cannot earn a living doing a job properly, find another job.

You mistake me for a farmer - I am flattered.
Actually I am retired after 40+ years in computers.

No producer is going to waste money on "highly toxic poisons" if there are
less toxic, equally effective and/or cheaper alternatives.

No doubt Himmler thought along the same lines.

How did he get in here?

Google -- Google -- Himmler had a degree in agronomy and was a poultry
farmer for a few years before he took to exterminating humans. Not relevant
in this context.

Anything that increases the cost of production moves the producer that much
closer to being priced out of the market - and out of business.

So find another job.

Farming is not just a job. It produces some of the necessities of life. It
is part of our life-support system.

Most produce coming off farms goes directly or indirectly to supermarkets.
Guess who sets the prices that are paid for the produce.

Irrelevant. If I had a product for sale, it is at a price I can live
off, if that's not possible I find another job.

As above.

Supermarkets pride themselves on their ability to get what they need, of a
quality specified by them, at any time of the year, from almost anywhere in
the world. If the price is even fractionally too high the supermarket buyer
will so "NO".

Damn right too, don't blame the supermarkets for the mug farmer not
being able to manage his own business. You set a price you cannot go
below, it's how business works.

And in the case of farmers - cease farming.

I have no sympathy for farmers brought up on subsidy mentality, it was
a golden goose, it's now gone, live with it and start running business
properly or find another job.

Most of us have had too.

Most farmers are trying to run their businesses properly. They are prevented
from setting realistic prices.

I look at the overall situation from the point of view of maintaining a
secure supply of adequately nutritious and adequately safe, food to the
people of this country.

To me this would seem to require enough production in this country to feed
the population at an emergency level indefinitely. This means not only
having the farms but also having substantial buffer stocks because of the
seasonal nature of food production.

Compare the UK with Iraq:
Before the recent war in Iraq the goverment there is reported to have
distributed some (6) months food supply to all families.

In the UK:
How many months emergency rations do you (and your friends and neighbours)
have personally available? (Is it even as much as a month?)

How many months reserves are there in the wholesale and retail distribution
channels?


--
Peter Duncanson
UK

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

Peter Duncanson writes

How many months emergency rations do you (and your friends and neighbours)
have personally available? (Is it even as much as a month?)

It'd be getting pretty thin (with what's in the larder) after a couple
of weeks.

How many months reserves are there in the wholesale and retail distribution
channels?

Three days retail.

What do you mean by wholesale?

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Thu, 29 May 2003 19:13:49 +0100, Peter Duncanson
wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:53:49 GMT, Malcolm wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2003 16:44:58 +0100, Peter Duncanson
wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2003 15:04:58 GMT, Malcolm wrote:


There is a similar vicious circle involved in food
production/processing/distribution.

Yeah but not many of us will deliberately coat liberal; quantities of
highly toxic poisons onto peoples foodstuffs, not knowingly anyway,
and then still claim innocence.

I think knowledgeable people here (uk.business.agriculture) have, and will,
challenge(d) your reference to "highly toxic poisons".

No doubt they will, I'll be happy sticking to the facts. They are
highly toxic, regardless the quantity used, I don't want them anywhere
near my food thanks.

The people who have the power to break these vicious circles are
governments. Unfortunately some of the actions they would need to take are
so disruptive and draconian that they recoil from them.

I blame the producers in equally parts, no one forces them to use
poisons, they choose to.

You say "they choose to" - what are other practical choices are available?

Accept less yields per acre, a yield where good, wholesome is
available for us all, a yield that was possible long before factory
farming became a reality.

There are only so many corners that can be cut, messing with my health
aint one of them.

Remember that "practical" includes issues of cost and saleability.

Practical ends as far as I am concerned when it's a choice between
poisoning people or not.

If you cannot earn a living doing a job properly, find another job.

You mistake me for a farmer - I am flattered.
Actually I am retired after 40+ years in computers.

No I am figuratively speaking :-) I know nothing about you and would
not presume to do so. We are simply armchair generals putting the
world to rights.

No producer is going to waste money on "highly toxic poisons" if there are
less toxic, equally effective and/or cheaper alternatives.

No doubt Himmler thought along the same lines.

How did he get in here?

Cheap, nasty quick fixes and stuff the consequence to the human race.

It's a long story ;-)

Google -- Google -- Himmler had a degree in agronomy and was a poultry
farmer for a few years before he took to exterminating humans. Not relevant
in this context.

It is in my opinion.

Anything that increases the cost of production moves the producer that much
closer to being priced out of the market - and out of business.

So find another job.

Farming is not just a job. It produces some of the necessities of life. It
is part of our life-support system.

Obviously, that doesn't give them the right to feed us and try to kill
us off at the same time.

Most produce coming off farms goes directly or indirectly to supermarkets.
Guess who sets the prices that are paid for the produce.

Irrelevant. If I had a product for sale, it is at a price I can live
off, if that's not possible I find another job.

As above.

Indeed.

Supermarkets pride themselves on their ability to get what they need, of a
quality specified by them, at any time of the year, from almost anywhere in
the world. If the price is even fractionally too high the supermarket buyer
will so "NO".

Damn right too, don't blame the supermarkets for the mug farmer not
being able to manage his own business. You set a price you cannot go
below, it's how business works.

And in the case of farmers - cease farming.

Leave it to those who can make it work, obvious solution.

I have no sympathy for farmers brought up on subsidy mentality, it was
a golden goose, it's now gone, live with it and start running business
properly or find another job.

Most of us have had too.

Most farmers are trying to run their businesses properly. They are prevented
from setting realistic prices.

No they are mugs looking for a handout.

I would never dream of serving the public up with the crap they
produce.

I look at the overall situation from the point of view of maintaining a
secure supply of adequately nutritious and adequately safe, food to the
people of this country.

I don't, at the end of the day I can always grow my own, if necessary.

To me this would seem to require enough production in this country to feed
the population at an emergency level indefinitely. This means not only
having the farms but also having substantial buffer stocks because of the
seasonal nature of food production.

You mean like we done years ago, before the poisons were let loose,
yes I agree.

Compare the UK with Iraq:
Before the recent war in Iraq the goverment there is reported to have
distributed some (6) months food supply to all families.

In the UK:
How many months emergency rations do you (and your friends and neighbours)
have personally available? (Is it even as much as a month?)

No, but if it were necessary I would ensure it were.

How many months reserves are there in the wholesale and retail distribution
channels?

No idea. Don't kid yourself that needs must force us to embrace
poisons, it's crap.
--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Thu, 29 May 2003 16:54:55 GMT, Tim Tyler wrote:


No event as complex as shipping fruit around can possibly
have a single cause.

The simple cause for the complexities involved in shipping fruit around is
the desire of the eaters of the fruit to have it transported from where it
is grown into their eager hands.

If the fruit can be grown economically [1] next door to the consumer it will
be. If it can't, it won't.

That's all there is to it.

[1] "economically" means at a price the consumer is prepared to pay.

--
Peter Duncanson
UK

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Thu, 29 May 2003 17:54:01 GMT, Malcolm wrote:

That'll be quite a few points above you then old chum, I'm not the one
sitting here whining about how hard done by I am, because I produce
crap goods and nobody wants them.

You have it back to front.

The general public will buy what you call the "crap" goods but will not pay
for the "non-crap" goods.

Their choice, that doesn't justify the producer using highly toxic
substances just because people are gullible enough to let them get
away with it.

As pointed out by others the substances are not "highly toxic".

"Gullible" people are not letting "them get away with it".

You are probably aware of what happened when the Iceland Group switched to
selling exclusively organic frozen vegetables in their stores.
They lost business and switched back to conventionally grown vegetables.

This was not the fault of farmers.
It was the fault of customers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/789900.stm
quote
Wednesday, 14 June, 2000
Iceland takes organic lead

Supermarket chain Iceland has bought up nearly 40% of the world's organic
vegetable crop to meet growing demand from customers.
From October, all frozen vegetables bought at its stores will be completely
organic. They will be sold at the same price as average supermarket
own-label products.
/quote

But seven months later:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1130900.stm
quote
Monday, 22 January, 2001
Organic food sales disappoint Iceland

Iceland Group's high-profile bet on organic foods failed to pay off as the
company saw its sales slump in the six months to 29 December.
In the second half of the year, Iceland Group's like-for-like sales dropped
by 0.5%.

Sales for north Wales-based Iceland Foods fell by 1.5%, while sales at cash
and carry Booker were static compared with last year.

Iceland acquired Booker in June 2000.

Organic switch

The company has attributed the decline in performance mainly to its switch
to organic products.

"We will continue to promote organic produce on a phased basis rather than a
complete basis," said Bill Grimsey, the new chief executive of the group.

"I see it as a migration rather than a revolution."

He described the company's 100% move into organic foods, particularly
vegetables, last September as a "bold but misguided policy".

"Customers are not ready to make the jump," he said, adding that the company
could not offer both organic and non-organic produce at the same price.
/quote

--
Peter Duncanson
UK

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

On Thu, 29 May 2003 19:59:11 +0100, Peter Duncanson
wrote:

On Thu, 29 May 2003 17:54:01 GMT, Malcolm wrote:

That'll be quite a few points above you then old chum, I'm not the one
sitting here whining about how hard done by I am, because I produce
crap goods and nobody wants them.

You have it back to front.

The general public will buy what you call the "crap" goods but will not pay
for the "non-crap" goods.

Their choice, that doesn't justify the producer using highly toxic
substances just because people are gullible enough to let them get
away with it.

As pointed out by others the substances are not "highly toxic".

"Gullible" people are not letting "them get away with it".

They are, it's the only reason the do get away with it.

You are probably aware of what happened when the Iceland Group switched to
selling exclusively organic frozen vegetables in their stores.
They lost business and switched back to conventionally grown vegetables.

Fair play to Iceland for trying, it doesn't absolve the guilty farmer
of total guilt for selling us crap.he is just playing on our apathy..

This was not the fault of farmers.
It was the fault of customers.

What Iceland does or doesn't is between them and their customers

It relieves the farmer of no guilt whatsoever, or rather it shouldnt
but they'll clutch at any straw. Who else but the nuttiest Dr Evil
could think we actually want poisoned food rather then good wholesome
food..

Like I said, plying on the customers gullibility.











--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:5943dd2c8ba77e96b5e5219530fa0635@TeraNews...

You are probably aware of what happened when the Iceland Group switched
to
selling exclusively organic frozen vegetables in their stores.
They lost business and switched back to conventionally grown vegetables.

Fair play to Iceland for trying, it doesn't absolve the guilty farmer
of total guilt for selling us crap.he is just playing on our apathy..

but if the customer does not want organic food why should the farmers grow
it???
and the Iceland example shows beyond a doubt that the customer - barring a
few which is fine - are not interested in organic
The fact that you think that its best does not mean that the rest of the
buying population have to agree - they obviously do not
So if the customer wishes a different product - I do not see why you have a
problem with a producer suppling it


This was not the fault of farmers.
It was the fault of customers.

What Iceland does or doesn't is between them and their customers

correct - and if Iceland's customers do not want ot buy organic then Iceland
have to find farmers who are not growing organically to supply their
customers


--
Jill Bowis

http://www.poultryscotland.co.uk http://www.henhouses.co.uk
http://www.domesticducks.co.uk http://www.poultry-books.co.uk
http://www.kintaline.co.uk/cottage

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

In article 1cabe6d7a11ffdb964d9409ca5e02bd0@TeraNews, Malcolm
wrote:

crap goods and nobody wants them. In fact I have a proper job and earn
a fortune, more then enough to pay for my choice not to be poisoned by

Hello Pete, got a job?
Does that mean you can afford to pay that grand you owe the NSPCC?

Cheerio,

--


http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Oz" wrote in message
...

It's like cars and congestion.

"They" shouldn't be allowed on the roads because 'they'
cause
congestion.

"We" should be freely allowed on the roads, of course ...

This is getting to be a habit, again I agree with Oz. If it
wasn't for all the other buggers motoring would be a
pleasure. :-)

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field