The message
from Neil Jones contains these words:
Rusty Hinge wrote:
The message
from "Dave Liquorice" contains these words:

It's illegal to allow it to grow on your land. (Most county bylaws
specifically mention ragwort as a notifiable weed.)

But tolerated as it is a native plant and host to several
invertebrates. If it's more than 100m from grazing horses/stock or
land used to produce forage they say leave it. Of course round here we
are surrounded by sheep...

Oxford ragwort is a fairly recent introduction - believed to have been
brought in the ballast of merchantmen, which ballast often comprised
sacks of sand or soil.

--
Rusty http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm

This is incorrect. Oxford Ragwort is a different plant to Common
Ragwort.

Never said it wasn't.

Oxford Ragwort was introduced from Mt Etna to a botanic gardens in
Oxford and escaped from there.

This is incorrect, or rather, incomplete. Oxford ragwort can be found in
places where you just wouldn't expect it, and has been known in coastal
areas long before there were any botanical gardens anywhere in this
country.

On the Isle of Lewis it is known as 'The French Weed' because it sprang
up where (a?) French merchantman (or merchantmen?) offloaded their
ballast: and we are talking of several hundred years ago, not just in
the 19th century.

--
Rusty http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm
horrid·squeak snailything zetnet·co·uk exchange d.p. with p to
reply.

In article ,
writes:
|
| I am a little confused about this. I have read in relatively
| respectable locations that the plant spreading along verges etc.
| is normally Oxford ragwort, and that the population of common
| ragwort is fairly stable.
|
| Is that so, and what is the species that normally invades badly
| managed pastures? Whether they are different makes a LOT of
| difference to the methods of control!
|
| Er, why does it affect how you control it? They are closely related
| species and opportunistic in much the same way in badly managed
| pasture I would have thought. They are also susceptible to the same
| herbicides.

Because, if it is Oxford ragwort that is spreading along roads
and if it rarely invades pasture, then controlling the ragwort
by roads is unnecessary. If Oxford ragwort is starting to invade
pasture by the way of road verges, then that needs attention.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
writes:
|
| I am a little confused about this. I have read in relatively
| respectable locations that the plant spreading along verges etc.
| is normally Oxford ragwort, and that the population of common
| ragwort is fairly stable.
|
| Is that so, and what is the species that normally invades badly
| managed pastures? Whether they are different makes a LOT of
| difference to the methods of control!
|
| Er, why does it affect how you control it? They are closely related
| species and opportunistic in much the same way in badly managed
| pasture I would have thought. They are also susceptible to the same
| herbicides.

Because, if it is Oxford ragwort that is spreading along roads
and if it rarely invades pasture, then controlling the ragwort
by roads is unnecessary. If Oxford ragwort is starting to invade
pasture by the way of road verges, then that needs attention.

You claimed that it was important to know whether an infestation was of
Oxford or Common ragwort.
Your remark has nothing to do with that distinction.

Franz

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
writes:
|
| I am a little confused about this. I have read in relatively
| respectable locations that the plant spreading along verges etc.
| is normally Oxford ragwort, and that the population of common
| ragwort is fairly stable.
|
| Is that so, and what is the species that normally invades badly
| managed pastures? Whether they are different makes a LOT of
| difference to the methods of control!
|
| Er, why does it affect how you control it? They are closely related
| species and opportunistic in much the same way in badly managed
| pasture I would have thought. They are also susceptible to the same
| herbicides.

Because, if it is Oxford ragwort that is spreading along roads
and if it rarely invades pasture, then controlling the ragwort
by roads is unnecessary. If Oxford ragwort is starting to invade
pasture by the way of road verges, then that needs attention.

You claimed that it was important to know whether an infestation was of
Oxford or Common ragwort.
Your remark has nothing to do with that distinction.

Franz

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

I didn't know that you could buy drunken louts by the sackful - what
do you do with them in the garden? Compost them?

They should be capable of simple tasks like lifting and carrying your
shed or caravan to a new location, trampling down knotweed plantations,
and activating compost heaps.

Janet.

Simon Avery wrote:

snip

We've had about half a dozen to a dozen horses in over the past ten
years with severe problems that were caused by ragwort. (Not just
trusting our own vet, we sent one to the Bristol equine hospital who
confirmed that ragwort was the probable cause) All of them have now
died.


That's er, say one a year on average?

Maybe I am beating this drum a little too hard,

snip

Even allowing that it

........ is an incredibly painful and
debilitating illness.

well yes, maybe you are, in this ng. But, in an equine owners forum
you would be well entitled to beat the guts out of your drum. I know
many horse owners who quite happily turn their horses out onto rough
pasture without even a cursory look to see what has grown up since
they last used it. And how many tease out a hay bale to see what's
buried inside?

--
ned

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:13:49 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

I didn't know that you could buy drunken louts by the sackful - what
do you do with them in the garden? Compost them?

They should be capable of simple tasks like lifting and carrying your
shed or caravan to a new location, trampling down knotweed plantations,
and activating compost heaps.

...and, to quote Lord Ian of Dury ( for it is he, MHRIP ), "****ing in
YOUR swimming pool".

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

I didn't know that you could buy drunken louts by the sackful - what
do you do with them in the garden? Compost them?

They should be capable of simple tasks like lifting and carrying your
shed or caravan to a new location, trampling down knotweed plantations,
and activating compost heaps.

Janet.

Simon Avery wrote:

snip

We've had about half a dozen to a dozen horses in over the past ten
years with severe problems that were caused by ragwort. (Not just
trusting our own vet, we sent one to the Bristol equine hospital who
confirmed that ragwort was the probable cause) All of them have now
died.


That's er, say one a year on average?

Maybe I am beating this drum a little too hard,

snip

Even allowing that it

........ is an incredibly painful and
debilitating illness.

well yes, maybe you are, in this ng. But, in an equine owners forum
you would be well entitled to beat the guts out of your drum. I know
many horse owners who quite happily turn their horses out onto rough
pasture without even a cursory look to see what has grown up since
they last used it. And how many tease out a hay bale to see what's
buried inside?

--
ned

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:13:49 +0100, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

I didn't know that you could buy drunken louts by the sackful - what
do you do with them in the garden? Compost them?

They should be capable of simple tasks like lifting and carrying your
shed or caravan to a new location, trampling down knotweed plantations,
and activating compost heaps.

...and, to quote Lord Ian of Dury ( for it is he, MHRIP ), "****ing in
YOUR swimming pool".

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:30:15 +0100, ned wrote:

And how many tease out a hay bale to see what's buried inside?

But supplying feed that is injurious is an offence. Of course trying
to prove that the hay you got from Dodgey Feeds Ltd 5 years ago was
the source of the Ragwort that has just killed your horse is another
matter.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Simon Avery wrote:
wrote:

Hello

for an equine charity) I loathe it more than most. It's
also poisonous to humans, if you pick or handle it without
gloves, it'll get into your system (after causing burns on
sensitive skins) and leads to progressive liver failure.
u Do you have evidence for this as when we enquired of DEFRA
u about it they said that as far as they knew it was harmless
u to touch and pull it. I'm pretty sure it has to be ingested
u to do harm.

They're wrong-ish, and every council now requires its workers to wear
gloves when pulling it. I have noticed irritation to my own hands when
pulling it, but can't say whether that was purely the ragwort or
something else. Can't find anything on the web about it being an
irritant.

We've not noticed any ill effects on hands at all apart from the
obvious simple 'wear' due to pulling lots of things out of the ground.


You're right, though - it does need to be ingested (AFAIK), but what's
on peoples hands tends to end up in their mouth, with smokers, nose
pickers, sweat-wipers. (Same reason you're not supposed to smoke when
applying pesticides, because your hand goes to your mouth)

We do take care to wash hands etc. after pulling ragwort, When we had
serious amounts to pull (fortunately no longer the case) we wore
gloves but that was really just for mechanical protection.


Possibly not in sufficient quantities to cause damage, but I'll let
somebody else find that out.

Btw, regarding the cinnibar moths. Far from being restricted to only
being able to feed on Ragwort, they're also quite happy munching on
other senecio species such as groundsel, which is possibly more
widespread than ragwort and doesn't cause the same risks to livestock.

I think that groundsel does actually have the same toxins in it
doesn't it? It's just that it isn't so big and doesn't tend to
colonise pasture quite so invasively as ragwort can. It may well also
have rather lower levels of the toxin in it.

--
Chris Green )

(Simon Avery) wrote in message ...
wrote:

Hello

for an equine charity) I loathe it more than most. It's
also poisonous to humans, if you pick or handle it without
gloves, it'll get into your system (after causing burns on
sensitive skins) and leads to progressive liver failure.
u Do you have evidence for this as when we enquired of DEFRA
u about it they said that as far as they knew it was harmless
u to touch and pull it. I'm pretty sure it has to be ingested
u to do harm.

They're wrong-ish, and every council now requires its workers to wear
gloves when pulling it. I have noticed irritation to my own hands when
pulling it, but can't say whether that was purely the ragwort or
something else. Can't find anything on the web about it being an
irritant.

You're right, though - it does need to be ingested (AFAIK), but what's
on peoples hands tends to end up in their mouth, with smokers, nose
pickers, sweat-wipers. (Same reason you're not supposed to smoke when
applying pesticides, because your hand goes to your mouth)

Possibly not in sufficient quantities to cause damage, but I'll let
somebody else find that out.

Btw, regarding the cinnibar moths. Far from being restricted to only
being able to feed on Ragwort, they're also quite happy munching on
other senecio species such as groundsel, which is possibly more
widespread than ragwort and doesn't cause the same risks to livestock.

It is hard not to respond to this sort of stuff without getting
sarcastic.
The plant is not toxic enough to cause problems for humans. FULL STOP.
No doubt because of all the hysterical talk councils who know nothing
of the research tell their workers to put gloves on. If handling
Ragwort is dangerous then so is feeding tomato plants, lifting
potatoes, growing poppies and a hundred and one other garden
activities. All those plants contain toxic alkaloids.
Saying that smokers are at risk from handling ragwort really takes the
biscuit!
They are killing themselves with every puff they take of that stuff
anyway.

You are wrong about groundsel not containing the same toxins.

It is also quite wrong to say that the Cinnabar moth can survive on
groundsel.
Yes, the caterpillars can eat it, but that is not the whole story.
If you look at its eggs they lay in batches and therefore do much
better on larger plants. I know there is a website saying what you say
but it is WRONG.

Also for reasons to do with biological factors such as "Metapopulation
dynamics" the ecology of Groundsel with it being a short persisance
annual do not make it a suitable host to sustain the moth populations.
I won't bore everyone with the details and I can't post all the
differential equations anyway but this is absolutely clear from the
science.
--
Neil Jones- http://www.butterflyguy.com/
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn
Bog National Nature Reserve

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in message ...
In article ,
Neil Jones writes:
|
| This is incorrect. Oxford Ragwort is a different plant to Common
| Ragwort.
| Oxford Ragwort was introduced from Mt Etna to a botanic gardens in
| Oxford and escaped from there.

I am a little confused about this. I have read in relatively
respectable locations that the plant spreading along verges etc.
is normally Oxford ragwort, and that the population of common
ragwort is fairly stable.

Is that so, and what is the species that normally invades badly
managed pastures? Whether they are different makes a LOT of
difference to the methods of control!


The evidence from the published atlas data on Common Ragwort shows
that it is not changing in distribution, despite what the media claim.

Oxford Ragwort is a plant of waste places, railway tracks, etc. It is
very rare to see it growing in a field.

It gets its name from the Oxford Botanic Gardens where plants were
first grown in the 1700s. They had been collected from Mount Etna on
the Island of Sicily where they were found growing on the lava fields.
By 1794 the plant was to be found on the city walls having escaped
from its original source. With the advent of the railways Oxford
Ragwort, finding the clinker beds of the tracks similar to its
original volcanic habitat spread around the country. Oxford Ragwort
can now be found all over the UK and is often to be found growing in
the gaps in paving stones.

Recent research has found that Oxford Ragwort (Senecio squalidus) is
actually of hybrid origin. Its parents are two other speicies of
Ragwort, Senecio aethnensis and Senecio chrysanthemifolius which are
both only found on Sicily. It appears that the occur at different
heights on the mountain and in between these points on the mountain
the hybrid occurs. It is this Ragwort that was originally taken to
Oxford.

Neil Jones- http://www.butterflyguy.com/
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn
Bog National Nature Reserve

In article ,
(Neil Jones) writes:
|
| I am a little confused about this. I have read in relatively
| respectable locations that the plant spreading along verges etc.
| is normally Oxford ragwort, and that the population of common
| ragwort is fairly stable.
|
| Is that so, and what is the species that normally invades badly
| managed pastures? Whether they are different makes a LOT of
| difference to the methods of control!
|
| The evidence from the published atlas data on Common Ragwort shows
| that it is not changing in distribution, despite what the media claim.
|
| Oxford Ragwort is a plant of waste places, railway tracks, etc. It is
| very rare to see it growing in a field.

Thanks. Then what I heard was correct, and there is little point
in worrying overmuch about Oxford ragwort. The days when stock
were driven slowly and for long distances along roads are long
gone in the UK.

It could be a problem when turning "setaside" land back into
pasture, but that is another matter.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.