In article ,
(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

It's a fox welfare thing

Which is precisely why rational people oppose the abolition of
foxhunting.

Let me ask a question. If welfare was NOT an issue, what changes would
the "sport" make to the way they hunt foxes to make it more enjoyable?

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com

I call upon all people who care about reducing the suffering of
foxes to oppose the ban!

I do.

Mary


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I rather took Mary's post to be a sympathetic one.

It was.

Like omigod you had to
kill 40+ foxes and you didn't really want to.. but only Mary can tell us
what she really meant.
And thank you, Malcolm, for seeming to come to my defence.
When foxes cause me a problem, I shall continue to deal with them in any
way
I think fit. And if they don't I won't. I don't like to but if I have to,
I
have to.

I admire you for that. You know from another ng how despairing I have been
but at least poultry are not my livelihood, they are part of our daughter's
and she has suffered. She has the same feelings as you about fox, Tina. She
practises organic animal husbandry and her poultry is free-range (although
secured at night of course) - because animal welfare is a very high priority
in her life.

She's found that the fox problem doesn't accord with her ideals and she's
had to kill them. It's been very painful. Compromises have to be made, we
don't live in a mediaeval system.

Mary

(don't forget road kill, every week on my way to work I see one or more
squashed foxes)

Tina

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:56 +0000 (GMT), (Steve Harris)
wrote:

In article ,
(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

It's a fox welfare thing

Which is precisely why rational people oppose the abolition of
foxhunting.

Let me ask a question. If welfare was NOT an issue, what changes would
the "sport" make to the way they hunt foxes to make it more enjoyable?

The introduction of RPGs, anti-tank guns and flame throwers?
--
Martin

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

There certainly was one by the time your note reached me. I am damned if
I
know whi inserted it and where it was done.
Since it is of dubious origin, I have deleted it, so we will all remain
ignorant of what was in it.

Franz
I was in a bit of a rush last night Franz, and I should have explained more
fully.
There was NO attachment, its something in Outlook Express that 'thinks' its
an attachment.
Its on my Sig. line that I inserted, which I forgot was there, I tried it
out some time ago.
There is NOTHING suspicious or malicious about it, just put it down to a
failing memory!

Anthony


--
'Live in Hope die in Caergwrle'


Should have gone now?

"LordSnoty" wrote in message
...

Well Snotty, all your assumptions about me are incorrect.
I am also no more a Hunt supporter than you.
It may please you to think that I am but you are wrong.
When you contact your local vigilante friends ask them if
they have heard of me, I can assure you they will not have,
even though I, (unlike yourself) do not hide behind a cloak of
anonymity.
Career or not Xmas is coming up you are bound to have time
off for a visit surely?
Your posts do give a very good impression of your (lack of?)
personality and you certainly 'talk the talk' but lets see if you are able
to 'walk the walk'!
As for losing my ISP and Freedom, how would that happen?
Not by anything you could do thats for sure.

But all this could have been settled by now, just pay a visit!

Anthony
--
'Live in Hope die in Caergwrle'
begin OEisbrokenreadknowledgebaseQ265230

"Anthony" wrote in message
...

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

There certainly was one by the time your note reached me. I am damned
if
I
know whi inserted it and where it was done.
Since it is of dubious origin, I have deleted it, so we will all remain
ignorant of what was in it.

Franz
I was in a bit of a rush last night Franz, and I should have explained
more
fully.
There was NO attachment, its something in Outlook Express that 'thinks'
its
an attachment.
Its on my Sig. line that I inserted, which I forgot was there, I tried it
out some time ago.
There is NOTHING suspicious or malicious about it, just put it down to a
failing memory!

Anthony.please don't think that I thought you were acting in any sense
maliciously.
It is good that the episode is now explained.

From a fellow memory-loser,
Franz

"Christina Websell" christina.websell@zoomdotcodotuk wrote in message
news:3fd3b2b7$0$13877$afc38c87@vipnews...

When foxes cause me a problem, I shall continue to deal with them in any
way
I think fit.

There are laws to stop you doing precisely as you like of course.

Not least of which irresponsible use of poisons.

In article ,
Jonathan wrote:



If the Labour party and the AR's were really interested in fox welfare
they would have made sure snaring was banned before they moved on to
foxhunting. When farmers can't call on the hunt to kill foxes
The hunt seldom catch them anyway. If you really need to control them
you would not call in the hunt. I accept that this may not be the case in
the uplands as I have no experience there.

the
first thing they will reach for is a snare - it's simple to set, works
24-7, requires little maintenance and costs very little. It is silent,
unobtrusive and very effective. It is also more cruel IMO than the use
of hounds/lurchers to control fox numbers.
I agree there.
Unfortunately, those who
screech the loudest about animal welfare usually have the least
practical experience.

--
Regards from Robert Seago : http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rjseago

AR and anti-hunting is not motivated by welfare, it's about puritanism,
that's why it's really only found in protestant countries.

Opposition to the hunt is usually about their tendency to run roughshod
over people's private property.

Don't ban them, just make them subject to the same laws as the opponents.

--
Regards from Robert Seago : http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/rjseago

"Robert Seago" wrote in message
...


AR and anti-hunting is not motivated by welfare, it's about puritanism,
that's why it's really only found in protestant countries.

Opposition to the hunt is usually about their tendency to run roughshod
over people's private property.

Then it seems odd that the greatest political oposition seems to come from
MPs with largely urban constiuencies. Are you suggesting that there is a
problem of hunt trespass in urban areas, or are urban MPs being lobbied by
pensioners living in bungalows on the edge of villages rather that
organisation such as the RSPCA whose accounts suggest they've spent
millions in such a way. Where do you think the money might have really
gone?



Don't ban them, just make them subject to the same laws as the opponents.


I thought laws were supposed be applied without favour.

Michael Saunby

W K wrote in message
...

"Christina Websell" christina.websell@zoomdotcodotuk wrote in message
news:3fd3b2b7$0$13877$afc38c87@vipnews...

When foxes cause me a problem, I shall continue to deal with them in any
way
I think fit.

There are laws to stop you doing precisely as you like of course.

Not least of which irresponsible use of poisons.



I don't poison them and never would. They are live trapped here, in the
trap which is *in the hen run* and shot in the trap very quickly after being
discovered in the morning, which is completely legal and probably the best
way, IMHO, of control of poultry killing foxes.
I use the trap usually from November until the end of February in case, if
used longer, I might catch a suckling vixen. I used to trap until mid
March, but when a suckling vixen was caught one year in early March, she
was let go. Now Feb 28 is my cut off point.
The dog foxes are everywhere now, looking for territory and vixens. I saw
one on Sunday at 2.30 p.m.

Tina

Mary Fisher wrote in message
...


I rather took Mary's post to be a sympathetic one.

It was.

Like omigod you had to
kill 40+ foxes and you didn't really want to.. but only Mary can tell us
what she really meant.
And thank you, Malcolm, for seeming to come to my defence.
When foxes cause me a problem, I shall continue to deal with them in any
way
I think fit. And if they don't I won't. I don't like to but if I have
to,
I
have to.

I admire you for that. You know from another ng how despairing I have been

Yes.


but at least poultry are not my livelihood, they are part of our
daughter's
and she has suffered.

Foxes in this country always cause suffering to people who keep poultry.

.She has the same feelings as you about fox, Tina. She
practises organic animal husbandry and her poultry is free-range (although
secured at night of course) - because animal welfare is a very high
priority
in her life.

That is what makes it a dilemma.

She's found that the fox problem doesn't accord with her ideals and she's
had to kill them. It's been very painful.

It doesn't accord with my ideals either, because I really like all animals,
but I too have had to kill them when I really rather wouldn't. I tolerated a
high level of predation from them before I finally lost my temper over it.
Now, unfortunately. if they come after my extremely rare, highly endangered
breeds of poultry, it has to be zero tolerance now. If they would leave me
alone, I would leave them alone too, and I just wish they would. Fat chance
of that. Some of my neighbours feed them and they have got very brave,
strolling down the little path in my wood, towards the loose poultry in the
orchard in the early afternoon, sorry, no. No way I will have that.
They have to go if they are after my fowls in the afternoon, and I will make
sure of it. I survived one day in 1994, seeing what a fox did to my 8 year
breeding programme in one crazy, let's kill as many as I can afternoon and I
assure you, it will never happen again.
A fox in my hen run, that goes in the trap there, is dead the next morning..
I lost patience with Mr Fox in 1994, losing years of work. permanently after
his visit.
The worm turned, with a sad heart, but turned in the end.

Tina

W K wrote in message
...

"Christina Websell" christina.websell@zoomdotcodotuk wrote in message
news:3fd3b2b7$0$13877$afc38c87@vipnews...

When foxes cause me a problem, I shall continue to deal with them in any
way
I think fit.

There are laws to stop you doing precisely as you like of course.

Not least of which irresponsible use of poisons.



I don't poison them and never would. They are live trapped here, in the
trap which is *in the hen run* and shot in the trap very quickly after being
discovered in the morning, which is completely legal and probably the best
way, IMHO, of control of poultry killing foxes.
I use the trap usually from November until the end of February in case, if
used longer, I might catch a suckling vixen. I used to trap until mid
March, but when a suckling vixen was caught one year in early March, she
was let go. Now Feb 28 is my cut off point.
The dog foxes are everywhere now, looking for territory and vixens. I saw
one on Sunday at 2.30 p.m.

Tina

Mary Fisher wrote in message
...


I rather took Mary's post to be a sympathetic one.

It was.

Like omigod you had to
kill 40+ foxes and you didn't really want to.. but only Mary can tell us
what she really meant.
And thank you, Malcolm, for seeming to come to my defence.
When foxes cause me a problem, I shall continue to deal with them in any
way
I think fit. And if they don't I won't. I don't like to but if I have
to,
I
have to.

I admire you for that. You know from another ng how despairing I have been

Yes.


but at least poultry are not my livelihood, they are part of our
daughter's
and she has suffered.

Foxes in this country always cause suffering to people who keep poultry.

.She has the same feelings as you about fox, Tina. She
practises organic animal husbandry and her poultry is free-range (although
secured at night of course) - because animal welfare is a very high
priority
in her life.

That is what makes it a dilemma.

She's found that the fox problem doesn't accord with her ideals and she's
had to kill them. It's been very painful.

It doesn't accord with my ideals either, because I really like all animals,
but I too have had to kill them when I really rather wouldn't. I tolerated a
high level of predation from them before I finally lost my temper over it.
Now, unfortunately. if they come after my extremely rare, highly endangered
breeds of poultry, it has to be zero tolerance now. If they would leave me
alone, I would leave them alone too, and I just wish they would. Fat chance
of that. Some of my neighbours feed them and they have got very brave,
strolling down the little path in my wood, towards the loose poultry in the
orchard in the early afternoon, sorry, no. No way I will have that.
They have to go if they are after my fowls in the afternoon, and I will make
sure of it. I survived one day in 1994, seeing what a fox did to my 8 year
breeding programme in one crazy, let's kill as many as I can afternoon and I
assure you, it will never happen again.
A fox in my hen run, that goes in the trap there, is dead the next morning..
I lost patience with Mr Fox in 1994, losing years of work. permanently after
his visit.
The worm turned, with a sad heart, but turned in the end.

Tina