On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:41:15 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

The message
from martin contains these words:
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:16:23 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:
The message
from martin contains these words:

Since 99% of kippers, smoked haddock etc. ... are made the same way in
UK they probably thought that that was what was expected.

I think that's an overestimate. A lot of kippers, mackerel etc are still
smoked in traditional kilns, (I used to be MD of a fish-processing
company) and more are smoked in Torry Kilns, where the smoke is
circulated rather than passing the fish just once, on its way out of the
chimney.

There are a few smokeries left in UK, but not enough to provide the
quantities of "smoked" fish sold by UK supermarkets.
Rick Stein commented on the situation in one of his programs.
In NL I have never come across dyed fish. There are smokeries
everywhere.

All the places where I get fish either have both, or only properly
smoked stuff.

I am amazed that neither UK nor the EU hasn't banned the dyed stuff
long ago.

After this we will discuss "smoked" bacon. :-)

Tesco's fish counter at Harford Bridge in Norwich has a
good range of properly smoked stuff, as do most of the fishmongers'
caravan mobile shops.

but not the ones in the York area or if they do it's an innovation.


The situation really isn't as bad as it's painted.

but the fish is?


If you go to any big supermarket and ask which of the smoked fish on
sale is genuinely smoked and not just dyed, first they say it all is
and then if you argue they get the manager of the department and he
admits it is around zero.

Well, all the supermarkets I use would tell you correctly which was
which - if you couldn't tell from the appearance.

I can :-((



Just avoid the ones which look as if they've been decorated with
ox-blood bootpolish.

It must be fairly simple to smoke your own garlic.

An old oil drum, some oak chips a bit of old sacking and bobs your
uncle.

Um, no. You need a much higher chimney or you'll overcook them. Do you
know if they are hot-smoked, or cold-smoked?

I didn't know smoked garlic existed until recently.
They smoke fish in the Zuiderzee museum with the kit I listed. I
smoked some myself with a Webber smoker that I got in a sale.
They sell home smokers in angling shops in NL.

Aye, and the results are (IMO) pretty ghastly. Too quick and too hot.

I think it depends on the type of smoker. The Webber is controllable
as are the ones that originate in the former East Germany, the flat
things that cremate salmon and trout are awful.

The guy with oil drum in Enkhuizen makes the best kippers I have had
anywhere.

It amused me that the old guy in the local smokery used to give me oak
chips and encouragement when I smoked my own. It's not really a thing
to do in an urban area so i stopped before somebody called the fire
brigade or the police.

If you haven't been to the Zuiderzee how can you comment if you have
then you don't know perfect kippers when you are offered them.

I've had 'smoked brown trout' from one of those and I reckon it degraded
the trout from something to die for into something to shun at all costs.

/snip/

I should say that Dutch stuff bought from a farm is very nice.

I've no doubt. i wouldn't be surprised to discover that most of the
Dutch cheese sold over here was of the same quality as most of the
so-called Cheddar available.

I remember immediate post war "mouse trap"Dutch Cheddar almost as bad
as Canadian Cheddar.


I used to make a goats' cheese when I had a smallholding. A blue,
full-cream pressed cheese matured for nine months. Phwoar!

yum


We can agree on that. I understand that the Dutch men-o'war used cheeses
as cannonballs to very good effect......

nagelkaas? :-)

Yuk! Fingernail cheese?

no just nail cheese.
The "nails" are cloves.
--
Martin

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:49:06 +0100, martin wrote:

I am amazed that neither UK nor the EU hasn't banned the dyed stuff
long ago.

Do you know what it's dyed with?
--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:13:57 GMT, Tim Challenger
"timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" wrote:

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:49:06 +0100, martin wrote:

I am amazed that neither UK nor the EU hasn't banned the dyed stuff
long ago.

Do you know what it's dyed with?

No. What?
Take your pick from ...
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webproject...colourings.htm
--
Martin

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 16:30:30 +0100, martin wrote:

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:13:57 GMT, Tim Challenger
"timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" wrote:

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:49:06 +0100, martin wrote:

I am amazed that neither UK nor the EU hasn't banned the dyed stuff
long ago.

Do you know what it's dyed with?

No. What?
Take your pick from ...
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webproject...colourings.htm

Well if it's E100, it's only turmeric. Which is pretty common in most
curries.
--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:38:25 GMT, Tim Challenger wrote:

No. What?
Take your pick from ...
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webproject...colourings.htm


Kippers

Ah, I missed the Quinoline yellow bit.

--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:38:25 GMT, Tim Challenger
"timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" wrote:

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 16:30:30 +0100, martin wrote:

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:13:57 GMT, Tim Challenger
"timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" wrote:

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:49:06 +0100, martin wrote:

I am amazed that neither UK nor the EU hasn't banned the dyed stuff
long ago.

Do you know what it's dyed with?

No. What?
Take your pick from ...
http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/webproject...colourings.htm

Well if it's E100, it's only turmeric.

but if it's not

Which is pretty common in most
curries.

I'm not griping about the actual dye, I am griping about dyed fish
being sold as smoked fish. Likewise smoked wild salmon that isn't
either.
--
Martin

The message
from martin contains these words:

All the places where I get fish either have both, or only properly
smoked stuff.

I am amazed that neither UK nor the EU hasn't banned the dyed stuff
long ago.

After this we will discuss "smoked" bacon. :-)

Again, I'm lucky with bacon, it seems. Agreed, most of the stuff is
pumped as full as it can be with extra water and (is it?) milk proteins
- if you aren't careful.

Tesco's fish counter at Harford Bridge in Norwich has a
good range of properly smoked stuff, as do most of the fishmongers'
caravan mobile shops.

but not the ones in the York area or if they do it's an innovation.

Never been shopping in Yorkshire.

The situation really isn't as bad as it's painted.

but the fish is?

Not here in East Angular.

If you go to any big supermarket and ask which of the smoked fish on
sale is genuinely smoked and not just dyed, first they say it all is
and then if you argue they get the manager of the department and he
admits it is around zero.

Well, all the supermarkets I use would tell you correctly which was
which - if you couldn't tell from the appearance.

I can :-((

And I. And I avoid the bootpolished stuff like the plague.

Just avoid the ones which look as if they've been decorated with
ox-blood bootpolish.

It must be fairly simple to smoke your own garlic.

An old oil drum, some oak chips a bit of old sacking and bobs your
uncle.

Um, no. You need a much higher chimney or you'll overcook them. Do you
know if they are hot-smoked, or cold-smoked?

I didn't know smoked garlic existed until recently.
They smoke fish in the Zuiderzee museum with the kit I listed. I
smoked some myself with a Webber smoker that I got in a sale.
They sell home smokers in angling shops in NL.

Aye, and the results are (IMO) pretty ghastly. Too quick and too hot.

I think it depends on the type of smoker. The Webber is controllable
as are the ones that originate in the former East Germany, the flat
things that cremate salmon and trout are awful.

The guy with oil drum in Enkhuizen makes the best kippers I have had
anywhere.

I made a sixteen-foot high smokehouse out of corrugated iron on my
smallholding, and before I could put the chimney and butterfly on the
top and do anything sensible with it (it was intended mainly for smoked
cheeses and smoked eel) we had something approaching a hurricane, and it
got truncated.

It amused me that the old guy in the local smokery used to give me oak
chips and encouragement when I smoked my own. It's not really a thing
to do in an urban area so i stopped before somebody called the fire
brigade or the police.

Apart from a handful of houses close by I'm surrounded by countryside.

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/arjohm.htm

Those views were taken just before I took possession of the place. Isn't
the garden a picture? Or do I mean challenge?

If you haven't been to the Zuiderzee how can you comment if you have
then you don't know perfect kippers when you are offered them.

Does not compute.....

/snip/

I should say that Dutch stuff bought from a farm is very nice.

I've no doubt. i wouldn't be surprised to discover that most of the
Dutch cheese sold over here was of the same quality as most of the
so-called Cheddar available.

I remember immediate post war "mouse trap"Dutch Cheddar almost as bad
as Canadian Cheddar.

Immediately post-war I can't remember any bad cheese. The local grocer
had properly made and matured truckles of cheese about eighteen inches
to two feet in diameter and a bit over a foot thick. The rinds still had
threads from the cheesecloth embedded in the surface, and the truckles
came in tubular boxes made from bent ply.

When I was a slightly larger anklebiter I used to take these home and
use them as linings for a network of tunnels at the bottom of the
garden.

I used to make a goats' cheese when I had a smallholding. A blue,
full-cream pressed cheese matured for nine months. Phwoar!

yum

Too true! They were listed in the Milk Marketing Board's yearbook under
the name 'Starston'.

We can agree on that. I understand that the Dutch men-o'war used cheeses
as cannonballs to very good effect......

nagelkaas? :-)

Yuk! Fingernail cheese?

no just nail cheese.
The "nails" are cloves.

Ah, so Dutch nails double up as fingernails as well as hammerinthingies too?

--
Rusty Hinge http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm

Dark thoughts about the Wumpus concerto played with piano,
iron bar and two sledge hammers. (Wumpus, 15/11/03)

The message
from martin contains these words:

I'm not griping about the actual dye, I am griping about dyed fish
being sold as smoked fish. Likewise smoked wild salmon that isn't
either.

If you want an e-mail address for *REAL* home-smoked wild salmon to die
for - ass opposed to dye for - I can provide one, as well as a
formidable number of referees.

glum

The guy's mother is ill ATM and he has suspended smoking operations in
Helmsdale and is now situated on the south coast of England, so our
usual Christmas side won't be on yhe sideboard this year.

/glum

Fortunately, it appears the prognosis isn't quite as bad as at first it
seemed.

--
Rusty Hinge http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm

Dark thoughts about the Wumpus concerto played with piano,
iron bar and two sledge hammers. (Wumpus, 15/11/03)

The message m
from Tim Challenger "timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" contains
these words:

Well if it's E100, it's only turmeric. Which is pretty common in most
curries.

Close relative of ginger - but it's saffron yellow, so it might do
haddock and cod, but not the bright chestnut kippers or mackerel.

--
Rusty Hinge http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm

Dark thoughts about the Wumpus concerto played with piano,
iron bar and two sledge hammers. (Wumpus, 15/11/03)

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:08:31 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

The message
from martin contains these words:

I'm not griping about the actual dye, I am griping about dyed fish
being sold as smoked fish. Likewise smoked wild salmon that isn't
either.

If you want an e-mail address for *REAL* home-smoked wild salmon to die
for - ass opposed to dye for - I can provide one, as well as a
formidable number of referees.

glum

I have one it's in Brittany.

--
Martin

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Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:179601

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:05:52 +0100, martin wrote:

I'm not griping about the actual dye, I am griping about dyed fish
being sold as smoked fish.
I can't disagree with you there.

Likewise smoked wild salmon that isn't
either.

Mind you, if I'd been smoked, I'd be pretty mad too.
--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:03:21 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

The message m
from Tim Challenger "timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" contains
these words:

Well if it's E100, it's only turmeric. Which is pretty common in most
curries.

Close relative of ginger - but it's saffron yellow, so it might do
haddock and cod, but not the bright chestnut kippers or mackerel.

True. But you could just dye them yellow, then burn them a bit. ...
--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:39:30 GMT, Tim Challenger
"timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" wrote:

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:05:52 +0100, martin wrote:

I'm not griping about the actual dye, I am griping about dyed fish
being sold as smoked fish.
I can't disagree with you there.

Likewise smoked wild salmon that isn't
either.

Mind you, if I'd been smoked, I'd be pretty mad too.

but would you dye for it?
--
Martin

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:58:24 +0100, martin wrote:

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:39:30 GMT, Tim Challenger
"timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" wrote:

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:05:52 +0100, martin wrote:

I'm not griping about the actual dye, I am griping about dyed fish
being sold as smoked fish.
I can't disagree with you there.

Likewise smoked wild salmon that isn't
either.

Mind you, if I'd been smoked, I'd be pretty mad too.

but would you dye for it?

Perhaps for salmon, we could just tickle them pink? Non-toxic and
environmentally freindly.
--
Tim.

If the human brain were simple enough that we could understand it, we would
be so simple that we couldn't.

"Tim Challenger" "timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" wrote in message
s.com...
On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 17:05:52 +0100, martin wrote:

I'm not griping about the actual dye, I am griping about dyed fish
being sold as smoked fish.
I can't disagree with you there.

Likewise smoked wild salmon that isn't
either.

Mind you, if I'd been smoked, I'd be pretty mad too.

Have mercy on me and please stop using that s word. I stopped smoking two
years ago and I stil keep walking close behind smokers in the street, just
to breathe a bit of second hand pleasure.

Franz