While wandering round a local garden centre today I stopped to admire a
clematis, and on reading the label was surprised to see in bold letters
"propogation of this plant is illegal". Now since a lot of the pleasure I
get from gardening is from growing my own stock from one plant (and being
broke it is often the only way I can increase my plants), this warning
stopped me from buying, but I'm moved to ask if this is a rare happening or
a new trend?

TIA

Lyn

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:14:47 +0100, "Lyn" wrote:

While wandering round a local garden centre today I stopped to admire a
clematis, and on reading the label was surprised to see in bold letters
"propogation of this plant is illegal". Now since a lot of the pleasure I
get from gardening is from growing my own stock from one plant (and being
broke it is often the only way I can increase my plants), this warning
stopped me from buying, but I'm moved to ask if this is a rare happening or
a new trend?

Blimey!

Never heard of that one before!
If it's a new trend then I strongly urge all gardeners everywhere to
boycott such plants - and send the breeders a very firm and clear
message that they can stuff their marketeering up their warm, damp
spot.

Incidentally, my wife informs me that it's illegal to propagate with
me....but I'm open to a spot of discreet piracy.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

Propagation for sale is sometimes illegal. Those who produce new plants can
register them as a form of copyright. They can then sanction propagation for
a commission fee. Since this measure was introduced very many more new
varieties have been produced as there is now some financial incentive.
Previously one could have spent years working to improve a species and
then having sold just one, others could propagate it, and make their own
fortunes.
A similarity to writing a book etc.
Best Wishes.

"Lyn" wrote in message
news:y1Wjc.654$7S2.422@newsfe1-win...
While wandering round a local garden centre today I stopped to admire a
clematis, and on reading the label was surprised to see in bold letters
"propogation of this plant is illegal". Now since a lot of the pleasure I
get from gardening is from growing my own stock from one plant (and being
broke it is often the only way I can increase my plants), this warning
stopped me from buying, but I'm moved to ask if this is a rare happening
or
a new trend?

TIA

Lyn

Stephen Howard28/4/04 11:27

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:14:47 +0100, "Lyn" wrote:

While wandering round a local garden centre today I stopped to admire a
clematis, and on reading the label was surprised to see in bold letters
"propogation of this plant is illegal". Now since a lot of the pleasure I
get from gardening is from growing my own stock from one plant (and being
broke it is often the only way I can increase my plants), this warning
stopped me from buying, but I'm moved to ask if this is a rare happening or
a new trend?

Blimey!

Never heard of that one before!
If it's a new trend then I strongly urge all gardeners everywhere to
boycott such plants - and send the breeders a very firm and clear
message that they can stuff their marketeering up their warm, damp
spot.

You're talking about Plant Breeder's Rights which is just the same as a
Patent. The breeder of the plant has to breed or discover it, propagate
enough of it to go for testing as to viability and reliability and pay to
have it registered. That registration costs around £1,000 or more. This is
*exactly* the same as someone taking out a patent on a gadget which you
cannot reproduce and sell as your own invention. I know the inventor of the
Black & Decker Workmate and some years ago he told me that never a day goes
by that he isn't defending its patent in some country somewhere in the
world.
My husband has PBR on some plants and they are an important source of income
to the Nursery. However, while the label may have made that perfectly
correct statement, plant breeders and their agents aren't interested in the
amateur gardener taking one or two cuttings and handing them around, though
I'm not sure why anyone wants two of the same Clematis in their garden -
each to their own, however.

In reality, It's not worth their while policing your garden! They're
interested in commercial growers taking hundreds or thousands of illegal
cuttings and avoiding payment of a percentage to the breeder and the agent.
We've had to take action against someone doing just that in another country,
hoping they wouldn't be spotted.
I wouldn't worry about your own small number of cuttings but equally, please
do not dismiss people who spend a lot of time, money and effort in breeding
the plants you like to buy as greedy.
And as a piece of information as a side dish, many of the plants you buy
with the brightly coloured picture labels in their pots will have PBR
attached to them e.g. Surfinias which, according to my husband *all* have
PBR. All those lovely David Austin 'own brand' roses are the same.
This is nothing new and applies to very many plants.

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 00:54:32 +0100, Sacha
wrote:


You're talking about Plant Breeder's Rights which is just the same as a
Patent. The breeder of the plant has to breed or discover it, propagate
enough of it to go for testing as to viability and reliability and pay to
have it registered.
snip

In reality, It's not worth their while policing your garden! They're
interested in commercial growers taking hundreds or thousands of illegal
cuttings and avoiding payment of a percentage to the breeder and the agent.
We've had to take action against someone doing just that in another country,
hoping they wouldn't be spotted.
I wouldn't worry about your own small number of cuttings but equally, please
do not dismiss people who spend a lot of time, money and effort in breeding
the plants you like to buy as greedy.
And as a piece of information as a side dish, many of the plants you buy
with the brightly coloured picture labels in their pots will have PBR
attached to them e.g. Surfinias which, according to my husband *all* have
PBR. All those lovely David Austin 'own brand' roses are the same.
This is nothing new and applies to very many plants.


Put in that context, I can see the validity of the PBR - and withdraw
my comments unreservedly. I hadn't considered the possibility of
unscrupulous traders cashing in through unlicensed breeding.

Many thanks for the informative perspective.

Mind you... what happens if you breed from such a plant ( as opposed
to merely grow cuttings ) - who would own the rights to the new
variety??

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

"Lyn" wrote in message
news:y1Wjc.654$7S2.422@newsfe1-win...
: While wandering round a local garden centre today I stopped to admire a
: clematis, and on reading the label was surprised to see in bold letters
: "propogation of this plant is illegal". Now since a lot of the pleasure I
: get from gardening is from growing my own stock from one plant (and being
: broke it is often the only way I can increase my plants), this warning
: stopped me from buying, but I'm moved to ask if this is a rare happening
or
: a new trend?
:
: TIA
:
: Lyn
:
:
No it's been around for a while. It's for new introductions so that the
nursery that has invested so much in 'breeding' the plant can recoup their
money and get some benefit out of it. A bit like people saying you can't
download music from the internet really lol

"Stephen Howard" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:14:47 +0100, "Lyn" wrote:

While wandering round a local garden centre today I stopped to admire a
clematis, and on reading the label was surprised to see in bold letters
"propogation of this plant is illegal". Now since a lot of the pleasure
I
get from gardening is from growing my own stock from one plant (and being
broke it is often the only way I can increase my plants), this warning
stopped me from buying, but I'm moved to ask if this is a rare happening
or
a new trend?

All the labels at our local centres say "Propagation illegal without a
licence"

In article ,
"Sue da Nimm" . writes:
| "Stephen Howard" wrote in message
| ...
| On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 23:14:47 +0100, "Lyn" wrote:
|
| While wandering round a local garden centre today I stopped to admire a
| clematis, and on reading the label was surprised to see in bold letters
| "propogation of this plant is illegal". Now since a lot of the pleasure
| I
| get from gardening is from growing my own stock from one plant (and being
| broke it is often the only way I can increase my plants), this warning
| stopped me from buying, but I'm moved to ask if this is a rare happening
| or
| a new trend?
|
| All the labels at our local centres say "Propagation illegal without a
| licence"

There is, in general, no law against false advertising in the UK,
let alone false claims of illegality. It may be a new trend with
plants, but is not in the software business.

You may ignore all such crap, until and unless the monopolists
get the IP laws extended to covering such things. At MOST, you are
forbidden to propagate plants FOR SALE, and that applies only to
plants with Plant Breeder's Rights. And while we maintain our
independence - and I mean from the USA, not the EU.

I assume that the label is applied to all plants, with and without
such rights.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in news:c6qbg3$ek6$1
@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk:

You may ignore all such crap, until and unless the monopolists
get the IP laws extended to covering such things. At MOST, you are
forbidden to propagate plants FOR SALE, and that applies only to
plants with Plant Breeder's Rights.

And we hope not.

I believe that patenting a living thing is not, and should not be, the same
as patenting a simple gadget.

Anyone for copyleft plants?

(http://www.gnu.org/licenses/licenses...WhatIsCopyleft)

Victoria
--
gardening on a north-facing hill
in South-East Cornwall
--

Stephen Howard29/4/04 1:22

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 00:54:32 +0100, Sacha
wrote:


You're talking about Plant Breeder's Rights which is just the same as a
Patent. The breeder of the plant has to breed or discover it, propagate
enough of it to go for testing as to viability and reliability and pay to
have it registered.
snip

In reality, It's not worth their while policing your garden! They're
interested in commercial growers taking hundreds or thousands of illegal
cuttings and avoiding payment of a percentage to the breeder and the agent.
We've had to take action against someone doing just that in another country,
hoping they wouldn't be spotted.
I wouldn't worry about your own small number of cuttings but equally, please
do not dismiss people who spend a lot of time, money and effort in breeding
the plants you like to buy as greedy.
And as a piece of information as a side dish, many of the plants you buy
with the brightly coloured picture labels in their pots will have PBR
attached to them e.g. Surfinias which, according to my husband *all* have
PBR. All those lovely David Austin 'own brand' roses are the same.
This is nothing new and applies to very many plants.


Put in that context, I can see the validity of the PBR - and withdraw
my comments unreservedly. I hadn't considered the possibility of
unscrupulous traders cashing in through unlicensed breeding.

Many thanks for the informative perspective.

Mind you... what happens if you breed from such a plant ( as opposed
to merely grow cuttings ) - who would own the rights to the new
variety??

Regards,


Good question. I'll ask the boss!
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

Nick Maclaren29/4/04 8:39

snip
You may ignore all such crap, until and unless the monopolists
get the IP laws extended to covering such things. At MOST, you are
forbidden to propagate plants FOR SALE, and that applies only to
plants with Plant Breeder's Rights. And while we maintain our
independence - and I mean from the USA, not the EU.

snip

I'm not sure if I'm following you correctly, Nick. But if you're saying
that PBR doesn't apply to plants bred in UK and then licensed for
propagation and retailing in e.g. USA, that would be wrong. One of Ray's
plants has PBR in USA, Canada, Japan and all of Europe. Its biggest market
has proved to be USA with Canada and Japan close behind.


--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

"Lyn" wrote in message
news:y1Wjc.654$7S2.422@newsfe1-win...
While wandering round a local garden centre today I stopped to
admire a
clematis, and on reading the label was surprised to see in bold
letters
"propogation of this plant is illegal". Now since a lot of the
pleasure I
get from gardening is from growing my own stock from one plant (and
being
broke it is often the only way I can increase my plants), this
warning
stopped me from buying, but I'm moved to ask if this is a rare
happening or
a new trend?

If I were you,I would pay no attention to that notice. It is
intended for the consumption of commercial propagators. Half the
pleasure of gardening is in trying ones hand at propagating plants. I
can understand why a newly developed plant should be protected from
commercial exploitation, but there is no harm in propagating ones own
specimen of such a plant for ones own pleasure. I have frequently
taken cuttings of roses, for my own use, which I am sure were still
under copyright (or whatever) protection, and I have no qualms about
it.

Franz

Lyn wrote:
While wandering round a local garden centre today I stopped to admire
a clematis, and on reading the label was surprised to see in bold
letters "propogation of this plant is illegal". Now since a lot of
the pleasure I get from gardening is from growing my own stock from
one plant (and being broke it is often the only way I can increase my
plants), this warning stopped me from buying, but I'm moved to ask if
this is a rare happening or a new trend?

If someone has originated a new variety, they don't want it being pirated by
other vendors. The variety is registered to the original breeder and they
have exclusive rights to it.

The intention is to prevent commerical piracy, and I can't imagine anyone
who, in 5 years time, gives a cutting to a neighbour being persued with all
the rigour of the law. But even that is similar to copying a DVD and
handing it over the fence, I suppose.

See http://www.defra.gov.uk/planth/pvs/pbrguide.htm

Stick to native wildflowers, and you won't go wrong.

In article ,
(Nick Maclaren) wrote:

I assume that the label is applied to all plants, with and without
such rights.

It will be on seed packets next ;-)

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com
A useful bit of gardening software at http://www.netservs.com/garden/

In article ,
Sacha writes:
| Nick Maclaren29/4/04 8:39
| |
| You may ignore all such crap, until and unless the monopolists
| get the IP laws extended to covering such things. At MOST, you are
| forbidden to propagate plants FOR SALE, and that applies only to
| plants with Plant Breeder's Rights. And while we maintain our
| independence - and I mean from the USA, not the EU.
|
| I'm not sure if I'm following you correctly, Nick. But if you're saying
| that PBR doesn't apply to plants bred in UK and then licensed for
| propagation and retailing in e.g. USA, that would be wrong. One of Ray's
| plants has PBR in USA, Canada, Japan and all of Europe. Its biggest market
| has proved to be USA with Canada and Japan close behind.

No, that's not what I am saying.

I am referring to the disgraceful way in which USA pigopolists
have been permitted to patent naturally occurring organisms,
organisms and technologies developed by the third world, and so
on. I am also referring to the way that the traditional IP rights
have been extended to allow extortion.

So far, almost all that is void is most of the rest of the world,
but the failure of the countries with some remaining independence
to stand up to the USA is eroding that. Most people I know of in
the USA would dearly love the UK (and Europe, generally) to develop
some spine.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.