Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 12/05/2004 15:50 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

Rhiannon S12/5/04 1:01


Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 11/05/2004 16:57 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

- but I cannot begin to imagine what gets into people or where their
wits are, if they think this is any way to behave *anywhere*, let alone in
someone else's garden!

For that we can say "Thank You Mrs Thatcher", who taught us all that other
people don't count, there is no such thing as society, and of course, as
long
as I get my fun noone else matters.
--

I don't think so. Mrs Thatcher was very punctilious from what I recall.
She was very squashing to a radio interviewer who suggested that she didn't
say "good morning" to each of her interlocutors so as to 'save time'. Her
view appeared to be that time spent on small courtesies wasn't wasted!
Had she been here on Sunday this bloke would have been handbagged into the
pond himself!

Possibly, but it was the "there is no such thing as society" attitude that
allowed the abdication of societal respect. If there is no such thing as
society then you can do whatever you please and bugger anyone who feels put
out.

--
Rhiannon
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rhiannon_s/
"The trick is to commit crimes so confusing that police feel too stupid to even
write a crime report about them."
Aubrey on remaining at liberty
www.somethingpositive.net

In article , Rhiannon S
writes
Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 11/05/2004 16:57 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

- but I cannot begin to imagine what gets into people or where their
wits are, if they think this is any way to behave *anywhere*, let alone in
someone else's garden!

For that we can say "Thank You Mrs Thatcher", who taught us all that other
people don't count, there is no such thing as society, and of course, as long
as I get my fun noone else matters.
--
S'funny I can't remember her teaching me that, if she did I wasn't a
very good learner.
--
David

"John Edgar" wrote in message
...

I think you can blame the education system.

That might depend on the definition of "education system"
When I was a kid, my parents were busy planning to build their dream house.
Being exposed to all sorts of ideas on that front it was perhaps
understandable that I wanted to become an architect. At the time, (in Irish
rep) it was the results of our leaving cert. (O levels in GB .... I think)
that would determine what one might be able to apply for in terms of
univercity placement and architects candidates needed something like 28
points. One more than to study to be a surgeon. That I do remember! If you
did honours maths for your leaving cert, and got an A+ then you might get ,
say, 7 points. An A+ in standard math might get only 3 points. Less than 5
subjects passed and you were considered a failure.
Art, which one would think usuful for a budding architect would barely get
you any mark and so you can see that subjects chosen were to achieve points
and no other purpose, however useful they may be.
This highlights an irrationality. But it is one that schools have to work
with. It is therefore accedemia that matters, purpose is second best. Oh and
there are no points at all for manners or other such real things.
And it is accademic success that opens the door to all sorts of people who
.... if say, their future depended on a gardening exam... they would now find
it hard to get a job cleaning the streets. What that means is that accedemia
is a fashion accessory,. A must have, which if one has the aptitude to
follow up on,,,, but does not,,, then such a person would want his/her head
examined.
Eg. I was once at the home of a young lady who had just recieved her degree
in Hotel and Catering management. She popped into the kitchen to make a
brew. A few minutes later I could hear the kettle. The water was boiling but
no response. And then came the question I would not have expected. It was
not...; "Mom, where did you put the tray?" Or; "Where are all the cups
gone?"
No! It was "Mom, how do I know when the water is boiled?"
Fair enough , as someone pointed out, she was in management, not a chef.
She went on to get a job which she could not have got without the degree.
Yet the first thing her employer had to do was train her for the work,
which, quite frankly, a school boy could do without much "special training".
If she had done a catering course, she would have being expected to turn up
and be productive from day one...... and..... recieve about 6 times less
pay.
It is sometimes like the difference between a good, well trained sheep dog
that is left outside, exposed to all weathers, tethered to a bolt in the
ground. Whilst a highly over-bred dog, reduced by breeding manipulations to
being a useless mutt that can't even cleans it's own ass, gets brought
indoors to be fussed over and pampered, for no other reason than a dictate
of fashion.
It is unfortunate, but quite likely, the slob in sacha story quite probably
has a degree... if not a masters.

Patrick

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
Rhiannon S12/5/04 1:01

Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 11/05/2004 16:57 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:


I don't think so. Mrs Thatcher was very punctilious from what I recall.
She was very squashing to a radio interviewer who suggested that she
didn't
say "good morning" to each of her interlocutors so as to 'save time'. Her
view appeared to be that time spent on small courtesies wasn't wasted!
Had she been here on Sunday this bloke would have been handbagged into the
pond himself!

--

Sacha
(remove the weeds to email me)

Its when I hear tales such as yours I realise the worth of our otherwise
useless dog, he is quite large and has a bark you feel through the soles of
your feet, the only intruder he has been called upon to deal with was moving
so quick he was nearly 2 miles away by the time the police caught him (of
course what the scallywag didn't know was the dog had to be woken up by me
and dragged down stairs to do his bit!)

--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

"David Hill" wrote in message
...

No,No, No, No, No.

Yes you pick it up into a poly bag then follow to get his address, then
put
the sealed bag into a jiffy bag (That doesn't have your name or address on
it) and post it to him forgetting to put on stamps, that way he has to pay
around £1.00 to get the dog mess back.
I have done this to people cleaning out their cars in my gateway and who
are
stupid enough to dump things with their name and address on them (repeat
prescription forms, pay slip, expenses claim form and envelope) the latter
was from around 40 miles away so I wonder how it was explained to her
husband.
With it on plane paper a note just saying " Thought you might like these
things of yours back as I have no use for them".


--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

I liked that :~)
but do people really do that? worst we get is crisp packets blowing up the
drive.

--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

Rhiannon S12/5/04 8:05

Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 12/05/2004 15:50 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

Rhiannon S12/5/04 1:01

Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 11/05/2004 16:57 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

- but I cannot begin to imagine what gets into people or where their
wits are, if they think this is any way to behave *anywhere*, let alone in
someone else's garden!

For that we can say "Thank You Mrs Thatcher", who taught us all that other
people don't count, there is no such thing as society, and of course, as
long
as I get my fun noone else matters.
--

I don't think so. Mrs Thatcher was very punctilious from what I recall.
She was very squashing to a radio interviewer who suggested that she didn't
say "good morning" to each of her interlocutors so as to 'save time'. Her
view appeared to be that time spent on small courtesies wasn't wasted!
Had she been here on Sunday this bloke would have been handbagged into the
pond himself!

Possibly, but it was the "there is no such thing as society" attitude that
allowed the abdication of societal respect. If there is no such thing as
society then you can do whatever you please and bugger anyone who feels put
out.

There's no 'possibly' about it. If people are growing up with bad manners
and no respect for others or their property, it's the fault of their
upbringing, not our politicians. You might just as well blame Tony Blair or
John Prescott or Ian Hague or Charles Kennedy.

*Parents* raise children.

To suggest otherwise is to excuse the behaviour we saw here. I have three
adult children and so does my husband. If they behaved in such a fashion now
or when growing up I wouldn't dream of blaming a politician none of us had
even met.
*That*, IMO, is what leads to the idea that we abdicate responsibility for
ourselves and our children and that anyone but the perpetrator is
responsible for their own poor behaviour, thus excusing it and empowering
it. Neither Mrs Thatcher, nor the man in the moon, led that man to behave
as he did in our home. His own wretched morals did that.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

Charlie Pridham12/5/04 8:16


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
Rhiannon S12/5/04 1:01

Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 11/05/2004 16:57 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:


I don't think so. Mrs Thatcher was very punctilious from what I recall.
She was very squashing to a radio interviewer who suggested that she
didn't
say "good morning" to each of her interlocutors so as to 'save time'. Her
view appeared to be that time spent on small courtesies wasn't wasted!
Had she been here on Sunday this bloke would have been handbagged into the
pond himself!

--

Sacha
(remove the weeds to email me)

Its when I hear tales such as yours I realise the worth of our otherwise
useless dog, he is quite large and has a bark you feel through the soles of
your feet, the only intruder he has been called upon to deal with was moving
so quick he was nearly 2 miles away by the time the police caught him (of
course what the scallywag didn't know was the dog had to be woken up by me
and dragged down stairs to do his bit!)

--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)


This was in the middle of the afternoon, with the nursery full of people.
The dogs *did* react, bless them, but we were trying to go for the 'quiet
life' approach until we saw how thoroughly our hospitality to our customers
had been abused. And in fact, these weren't even customers - they came in,
let the dog swim in the pond, the 'man' used the public loo and after a few
short sharp words, they left.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds to email me)

"Mike" wrote in message
...

Another one I have no hesitation in using is, I hold a door open for
someone
and they walk straight through. "Sorry what did you say?" I ask, 'I didn't
say anything', "Oh I thought you said Thank You"

In these circumstances I usually say "You're welcome" very loudly.
--
Nick Wagg

"Rhiannon S" wrote in message
...
Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 11/05/2004 16:57 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

- but I cannot begin to imagine what gets into people or where their
wits are, if they think this is any way to behave *anywhere*, let alone
in
someone else's garden!

For that we can say "Thank You Mrs Thatcher", who taught us all that other
people don't count, there is no such thing as society, and of course, as
long
as I get my fun noone else matters.

Goes back a little further than that, I think.

According to Umberto Eco's essays it was the 70's that was named "the Me
decade", many socially acceptable "norms" ceased to be blindly accepted (for
good and for ill).


--
Richard Sampson

email me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

On Thu, 13 May 2004 13:40:47 +0100, "RichardS" noaccess@invalid
wrote:

"Rhiannon S" wrote in message
...
Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 11/05/2004 16:57 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

- but I cannot begin to imagine what gets into people or where their
wits are, if they think this is any way to behave *anywhere*, let alone
in
someone else's garden!

For that we can say "Thank You Mrs Thatcher", who taught us all that other
people don't count, there is no such thing as society, and of course, as
long
as I get my fun noone else matters.

Goes back a little further than that, I think.

According to Umberto Eco's essays it was the 70's that was named "the Me
decade", many socially acceptable "norms" ceased to be blindly accepted (for
good and for ill).

but he's a bit slow on the uptake.
He wrote about the super kitsch Madonna Inn, San Luis Obispo,
California in 1990. http://www.madonnainn.com/
It was on TV in "Tonight" in 1960, as a result I visited it in 1967.

"Rhiannon S" wrote in message
...
Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 11/05/2004 16:57 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

- but I cannot begin to imagine what gets into people or where their
wits are, if they think this is any way to behave *anywhere*, let alone
in
someone else's garden!

For that we can say "Thank You Mrs Thatcher", who taught us all that other
people don't count, there is no such thing as society, and of course, as
long
as I get my fun noone else matters.

Not so, since hardly anyone acts on a politician's sound bites, e.g. John
Major's 'back to basics' blandishments which were not only ignored, but were
a source of ridicule. Besides, I can remember the reference to there being
no such thing as society, which, putting it in context was from - "I think
we've been through a period where too many people have been given to
understand that if they have a problem, it's the government's job to cope
with it. 'I have a problem, I'll get a grant.' 'I'm homeless, the government
must house me.' They're casting their problem on society. And, you know,
there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and
there are families. And no government can do anything except through people,
and people must look to themselves first. It's our duty to look after
ourselves and then, also to look after our neighbour. People have got the
entitlements too much in mind, without the obligations. There's no such
thing as entitlement, unless someone has first met an obligation." - but I
don't recall her saying 'other people don't count', nor 'as long as I get my
fun no-one else matters'. That was Alan B'stard, surely?

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
Rhiannon S12/5/04 8:05

Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 12/05/2004 15:50 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

Rhiannon S12/5/04 1:01

Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 11/05/2004 16:57 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

- but I cannot begin to imagine what gets into people or where their
wits are, if they think this is any way to behave *anywhere*, let
alone in
someone else's garden!

For that we can say "Thank You Mrs Thatcher", who taught us all that
other
people don't count, there is no such thing as society, and of course,
as
long
as I get my fun noone else matters.
--

I don't think so. Mrs Thatcher was very punctilious from what I
recall.
She was very squashing to a radio interviewer who suggested that she
didn't
say "good morning" to each of her interlocutors so as to 'save time'.
Her
view appeared to be that time spent on small courtesies wasn't wasted!
Had she been here on Sunday this bloke would have been handbagged into
the
pond himself!

Possibly, but it was the "there is no such thing as society" attitude
that
allowed the abdication of societal respect. If there is no such thing
as
society then you can do whatever you please and bugger anyone who feels
put
out.

There's no 'possibly' about it. If people are growing up with bad manners
and no respect for others or their property, it's the fault of their
upbringing, not our politicians. You might just as well blame Tony Blair
or
John Prescott or Ian Hague or Charles Kennedy.

*Parents* raise children.

To suggest otherwise is to excuse the behaviour we saw here. I have three
adult children and so does my husband. If they behaved in such a fashion
now
or when growing up I wouldn't dream of blaming a politician none of us had
even met.
*That*, IMO, is what leads to the idea that we abdicate responsibility for
ourselves and our children and that anyone but the perpetrator is
responsible for their own poor behaviour, thus excusing it and empowering
it. Neither Mrs Thatcher, nor the man in the moon, led that man to behave
as he did in our home. His own wretched morals did that.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)


Absolutely, coudln't agree more with all this, it's amazing how many people
love to blame "something else", oh it's education, it's society, it's
politicians, I mean if that was that case, then it would be fair to say that
there never used to be jobs, there never used to be crime, there never used
to be any problems at all, and it's tantamount to sticking your head in the
sand and saying it's not my fault, it's not my problem, and there in lies
the real problem.

Not enough people think about the consequences of their actions, they do not
consider other people to be important, and this leads to most of the current
social problems we witness, and in fact probably always has.

Duncan

p.s. In this case, I think the man was obviously a pig, used to bullying
people and getting away with it, great that Ray stood up to him, and even
better that he backed down and effectively ran away with his tail between
his legs. Shame you can't stick up some notice effectively banning him and
his from your plot in future.

In article , RichardS
noaccess@invalid.? writes

According to Umberto Eco's essays it was the 70's that was named "the Me
decade", many socially acceptable "norms" ceased to be blindly accepted (for
good and for ill).

True, but that was allied to a general concern about people, the
environment and the world, which seemed to decrease during the 80s, when
the virtue of self reliance seemed to become tainted with the corollary
that 'and if you can't look after yourself, it's a defect in you and you
are therefore less worthy and don't deserve to be looked after'

... well, that's how it seemed to me, but I'm not putting forward any
explanations for the cause!
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

"Sacha" wrote in message after Charlie...
Its when I hear tales such as yours I realise the worth of our
otherwise
useless dog, he is quite large and has a bark you feel through the soles
of
your feet, the only intruder he has been called upon to deal with was
moving
so quick he was nearly 2 miles away by the time the police caught him
(of
course what the scallywag didn't know was the dog had to be woken up by
me
and dragged down stairs to do his bit!)


This was in the middle of the afternoon, with the nursery full of people.
The dogs *did* react, bless them, but we were trying to go for the 'quiet
life' approach until we saw how thoroughly our hospitality to our
customers
had been abused. And in fact, these weren't even customers - they came
in,
let the dog swim in the pond, the 'man' used the public loo and after a
few
short sharp words, they left.


You mean they didn't even stop for your excellent tea and cake, total
morons! :-)

--
Regards
Bob

Some photos of my plants at.....

Hope you like them.

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:204615


"John Edgar" wrote in message
...

I've only just stopped seething about this and Ray still has the odd dark
mutter - but I cannot begin to imagine what gets into people or where
their
wits are, if they think this is any way to behave *anywhere*, let alone
in
someone else's garden! For a moment we were looking for the Candid
Camera,
so astonished were we at this outrageous behaviour. Luckily, it's the
only
time anything *quite* as nasty as this has happened and I hope it's the
last!


I think you can blame the education system. A significant proportion
of at least one generation from the late '70s and '80s grew up
seemingly in a complete vacuum re. social mores, and with little or no
grounding about our particular society, and I mean particluarly
England and/or Great Britain. I believe a social experiment has been
carried out in order to produce a population which has no "baggage"
from the past. We seem to have produced some people who are empty
vessels in regard to "fitting in" and perhaps even in regard to basic
knowledge. Now, I am trying to understand this for what it is, because
in the other direction, education can and has been used for propaganda
purposes, but there has to be some sort of happy medium, in which
people learn to have certain "standards" but can question them in a
rational way, rather then simply not understand, or be plain ignorant.

This is very complicated and you could get into all sorts of areas re.
"the establishment" and its traditional disdain, and therefore lack of
thought regarding educating the masses or not. It used not to matter
whether we were educated or not, because the same people held sway
over us. That has changed, thankfully, but perhaps it went too far the
other way, and some sort of order needs to be regained now. Perhaps a
start has been made with "citizenship" classes.

Rather too many "" in this piece I am afraid but I haven't really
planned this response. It's been a sort of stream of conscience. Sorry
about that.


Sorry, I 'grew up' in the 80's education system, as did most of my friends.
So I presume we must all be some sort of yob - in your view? I would like to
say that the person who is being 'plain ignorant', in this case is you.



John
In limine sapientiae