"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
Rhiannon S12/5/04 8:05

There's no 'possibly' about it. If people are growing up with bad manners
and no respect for others or their property, it's the fault of their
upbringing, not our politicians.

I wondered if "upbringing" was included in John Edgar's;
"I think you can blame the education system."

Is not upbringing part of the education system?
His post did not define that point.

Take for example the info I posted about nursery theft (BTW, I meant the
your experience was dreadful,.. not the posting of it :-)
There have been times when upon relating this, the remarks that followed
seemed to indicate an element of admiration for the thief. It most be said
that those who are most likely to react in that way are now in the 60's &
70's.
They are equally as likely to voice such admiration in front of minors,
thereby providing some very bad education.
In the case of such unfiltered admiration, it follows that it can only
come from those who are evidently not fit to judge whether someone else was
clever or not.
It's nice that no one did that here.

What my follow up to his post was really getting at is that it is market
forces that rule our accademic education system and so if his definition was
purely centred on that, then because it is market forces that rule and not
teachers, then schools should not be blamed thus.

Unfortuneately, it is often a deluded *excessive* faith in market forces
that often leads to assumptions which revolve around ideas of meritocracy.
This in turn leads to assumptions that so-called educated people don't
behave badly. That it is the so-called (relatively) uneducated that are
easier to blame, which is why they are deemed deserving of poor pay and
status.
And such obsurdities need to be pointed out more often.

You might just as well blame Tony Blair or
John Prescott or Ian Hague or Charles Kennedy.

*Parents* raise children.

With a little help from *Society*

Patrick

D Russell13/5/04 2:31
"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
Rhiannon S12/5/04 8:05

Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 12/05/2004 15:50 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

Rhiannon S12/5/04 1:01

Subject: OT Customers from hell
From: Sacha
Date: 11/05/2004 16:57 GMT Daylight Time
Message-id:

- but I cannot begin to imagine what gets into people or where their
wits are, if they think this is any way to behave *anywhere*, let
alone in
someone else's garden!

For that we can say "Thank You Mrs Thatcher", who taught us all that
other
people don't count, there is no such thing as society, and of course,
as
long
as I get my fun noone else matters.
--

I don't think so. Mrs Thatcher was very punctilious from what I
recall.
She was very squashing to a radio interviewer who suggested that she
didn't
say "good morning" to each of her interlocutors so as to 'save time'.
Her
view appeared to be that time spent on small courtesies wasn't wasted!
Had she been here on Sunday this bloke would have been handbagged into
the
pond himself!

Possibly, but it was the "there is no such thing as society" attitude
that
allowed the abdication of societal respect. If there is no such thing
as
society then you can do whatever you please and bugger anyone who feels
put
out.

There's no 'possibly' about it. If people are growing up with bad manners
and no respect for others or their property, it's the fault of their
upbringing, not our politicians. You might just as well blame Tony Blair
or
John Prescott or Ian Hague or Charles Kennedy.

*Parents* raise children.

To suggest otherwise is to excuse the behaviour we saw here. I have three
adult children and so does my husband. If they behaved in such a fashion
now
or when growing up I wouldn't dream of blaming a politician none of us had
even met.
*That*, IMO, is what leads to the idea that we abdicate responsibility for
ourselves and our children and that anyone but the perpetrator is
responsible for their own poor behaviour, thus excusing it and empowering
it. Neither Mrs Thatcher, nor the man in the moon, led that man to behave
as he did in our home. His own wretched morals did that.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)


Absolutely, coudln't agree more with all this, it's amazing how many people
love to blame "something else", oh it's education, it's society, it's
politicians, I mean if that was that case, then it would be fair to say that
there never used to be jobs, there never used to be crime, there never used
to be any problems at all, and it's tantamount to sticking your head in the
sand and saying it's not my fault, it's not my problem, and there in lies
the real problem.

Not enough people think about the consequences of their actions, they do not
consider other people to be important, and this leads to most of the current
social problems we witness, and in fact probably always has.

Duncan

p.s. In this case, I think the man was obviously a pig, used to bullying
people and getting away with it, great that Ray stood up to him, and even
better that he backed down and effectively ran away with his tail between
his legs. Shame you can't stick up some notice effectively banning him and
his from your plot in future.



To be frank, I doubt he'll return - I really do hope not. He made a
complete fool of himself in front of our staff and his own wife - though it
is most certainly debatable that he will see it that way. In fact, Ray said
that one of the most frustrating things about dealing with this man was not
his sheer piggery, but the fact that whatever Ray said to him in an attempt
at reason, failed to hit the mark because the bloke was simply too thick.
He thought me asking him, politely, to take his dog back to their car made
me "an ignorant cow". There isn't much you can do with such oiks, IMO
except hope they don't breed.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds to email me)

Bob Hobden13/5/04 5:18

"Sacha" wrote in message after Charlie...
Its when I hear tales such as yours I realise the worth of our
otherwise
useless dog, he is quite large and has a bark you feel through the soles
of
your feet, the only intruder he has been called upon to deal with was
moving
so quick he was nearly 2 miles away by the time the police caught him
(of
course what the scallywag didn't know was the dog had to be woken up by
me
and dragged down stairs to do his bit!)


This was in the middle of the afternoon, with the nursery full of people.
The dogs *did* react, bless them, but we were trying to go for the 'quiet
life' approach until we saw how thoroughly our hospitality to our
customers
had been abused. And in fact, these weren't even customers - they came
in,
let the dog swim in the pond, the 'man' used the public loo and after a
few
short sharp words, they left.


You mean they didn't even stop for your excellent tea and cake, total
morons! :-)

Could there be greater proof of his idiocy......;-) Pity really - had we
only thought of it he could have ended up *wearing* one. ;-)
In truth, if there is a nice side to all this and we think there is, it is
that 99.999999999% of our customers are so delightful, so appreciative that
the prat factor stands out rather more on the rare occasions it happens! We
do get the "this is paradise" remark much more often, thank goodness. It's
a genuine pleasure to see people enjoy and appreciate our home. We're very
lucky, really so yes, the 'nasties' do become rather more memorable.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

tuin man13/5/04 8:02


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
Rhiannon S12/5/04 8:05

There's no 'possibly' about it. If people are growing up with bad manners
and no respect for others or their property, it's the fault of their
upbringing, not our politicians.

I wondered if "upbringing" was included in John Edgar's;
"I think you can blame the education system."

Is not upbringing part of the education system?
His post did not define that point.
snip

With a little help from *Society*

Patrick


PARENTS raise CHILDREN in my view and I'm inclined to think anything else is
a cop out. If parents don't like the way a school educates children in its
social aspects then they, the parents, must strive to ensure changes are
made. My children went to day schools, boarding schools, back to day
schools and in one case to a 6th form college. I brought them up alone for
the most part and I was rigorous about good manners and behaviour, even when
it would have been SO much easier not to bother. At no point did I consider
it the sole responsibility of the school to teach my child/ren their
manners, their morals or their 'social' good behaviour. AND if I thought
any of those schools were at fault, I said so.
I would suggest that Society 'helps' only by accepting or rejecting, by
which time it may be too late for the individual.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds to email me)

"Sacha" wrote in message
You mean they didn't even stop for your excellent tea and cake, total
morons! :-)

Could there be greater proof of his idiocy......;-) Pity really - had we
only thought of it he could have ended up *wearing* one. ;-)
In truth, if there is a nice side to all this and we think there is, it is
that 99.999999999% of our customers are so delightful, so appreciative
that
the prat factor stands out rather more on the rare occasions it happens!
We
do get the "this is paradise" remark much more often, thank goodness.
It's
a genuine pleasure to see people enjoy and appreciate our home. We're
very
lucky, really so yes, the 'nasties' do become rather more memorable.
--

After over 30 years in the retail banking industry I do sympathise with
anyone who has to deal with Joe Public on a daily basis. Whilst the ignorant
Morons are always a tiny minority, even in the poorer Council Flat type
areas, unfortunately they do tend to be the ones remembered. (If only to get
my own back IDC.)

Personally I think there is a general lowering of personal standards across
the board these days, no one cares a toss about anyone else i.e. Red lights
don't mean I should stop, use my indicators to indicate my intentions to
turn, why? Ask someone to move in a supermarket, no, just force your way
past. Loud loutish behaviour after a few beers, waking everyone up. Get a
big bass stereo driver in ones car and drive around late at night with the
deep thump, thump, thump doing the same........ it's everywhere these days.
( and those are examples I've experienced in the last 24 hours!)

Grumpy old man, who me? :-)
--
Regards
Bob

Some photos of my plants at.....

Hope you like them.

Another one I have no hesitation in using is, I hold a door open for
someone
and they walk straight through. "Sorry what did you say?" I ask, 'I
didn't
say anything', "Oh I thought you said Thank You"

In these circumstances I usually say "You're welcome" very loudly.
--
Nick Wagg


I like that one! It's shorter and to the point. Thanks

Mike

On Thu, 13 May 2004 18:40:22 +0100, "Jabba"
wrote:


"John Edgar" wrote in message
.. .

I've only just stopped seething about this and Ray still has the odd dark
mutter - but I cannot begin to imagine what gets into people or where
their
wits are, if they think this is any way to behave *anywhere*, let alone
in
someone else's garden! For a moment we were looking for the Candid
Camera,
so astonished were we at this outrageous behaviour. Luckily, it's the
only
time anything *quite* as nasty as this has happened and I hope it's the
last!


I think you can blame the education system. A significant proportion
of at least one generation from the late '70s and '80s grew up
seemingly in a complete vacuum re. social mores, and with little or no
grounding about our particular society, and I mean particluarly
England and/or Great Britain. I believe a social experiment has been
carried out in order to produce a population which has no "baggage"
from the past. We seem to have produced some people who are empty
vessels in regard to "fitting in" and perhaps even in regard to basic
knowledge. Now, I am trying to understand this for what it is, because
in the other direction, education can and has been used for propaganda
purposes, but there has to be some sort of happy medium, in which
people learn to have certain "standards" but can question them in a
rational way, rather then simply not understand, or be plain ignorant.

This is very complicated and you could get into all sorts of areas re.
"the establishment" and its traditional disdain, and therefore lack of
thought regarding educating the masses or not. It used not to matter
whether we were educated or not, because the same people held sway
over us. That has changed, thankfully, but perhaps it went too far the
other way, and some sort of order needs to be regained now. Perhaps a
start has been made with "citizenship" classes.

Rather too many "" in this piece I am afraid but I haven't really
planned this response. It's been a sort of stream of conscience. Sorry
about that.


Sorry, I 'grew up' in the 80's education system, as did most of my friends.
So I presume we must all be some sort of yob - in your view? I would like to
say that the person who is being 'plain ignorant', in this case is you.

Please read the first line of my reply. It says " . . . a significant
proportion . . ." Obviously you are not part of that significant
proportion. If you were you would not have understood the words or
been able to write a coherent reply.

John
In limine sapientiae


John
In limine sapientiae

snip

I wondered if "upbringing" was included in John Edgar's;
"I think you can blame the education system."

Is not upbringing part of the education system?
His post did not define that point.

snip


Yes, absolutely, but the issues become even more complicated then, and
I do not feel capable of expressing them properly here. This is also
probably not the place to do it. But I will say that if "upbringing"
is included, then that implies that there is another generation
further back who have also not been educated in a conventional sense,
as they clearly have not imparted social mores and conventions down
the line. Either they did not want to, because they did not think it
important to do so as their education gave them that opinion, or they
simply did not know what to do or how to do it.


John
In limine sapientiae

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
D Russell13/5/04 2:31
major snip


To be frank, I doubt he'll return - I really do hope not. He made a
complete fool of himself in front of our staff and his own wife - though
it
is most certainly debatable that he will see it that way. In fact, Ray
said
that one of the most frustrating things about dealing with this man was
not
his sheer piggery, but the fact that whatever Ray said to him in an
attempt
at reason, failed to hit the mark because the bloke was simply too thick.
He thought me asking him, politely, to take his dog back to their car made
me "an ignorant cow". There isn't much you can do with such oiks, IMO
except hope they don't breed.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds to email me)



I do hope for both your sakes that he doesn't return. 'tis best to try to
forget him as swiftly as possible, I find myself hating it when I let people
like that get to me, mind you I let far too much get to me, like the morons
down our road who insist on flytipping in the hedge where we all have to
drive past in the mornings, one day I'll get me camera . . .
Duncan
Duncan

In article , Rhiannon S
writes

For that we can say "Thank You Mrs Thatcher", who taught us all that other
people don't count,

She did ??????????????
Some people just have to have any excuse to blame their own deficiencies
on, don't they (((((((((

--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms
at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:204839


"John Edgar" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 13 May 2004 18:40:22 +0100, "Jabba"
wrote:


"John Edgar" wrote in message
.. .

I've only just stopped seething about this and Ray still has the odd
dark
mutter - but I cannot begin to imagine what gets into people or where
their
wits are, if they think this is any way to behave *anywhere*, let
alone
in
someone else's garden! For a moment we were looking for the Candid
Camera,
so astonished were we at this outrageous behaviour. Luckily, it's the
only
time anything *quite* as nasty as this has happened and I hope it's
the
last!


I think you can blame the education system. A significant proportion
of at least one generation from the late '70s and '80s grew up
seemingly in a complete vacuum re. social mores, and with little or no
grounding about our particular society, and I mean particluarly
England and/or Great Britain. I believe a social experiment has been
carried out in order to produce a population which has no "baggage"
from the past. We seem to have produced some people who are empty
vessels in regard to "fitting in" and perhaps even in regard to basic
knowledge. Now, I am trying to understand this for what it is, because
in the other direction, education can and has been used for propaganda
purposes, but there has to be some sort of happy medium, in which
people learn to have certain "standards" but can question them in a
rational way, rather then simply not understand, or be plain ignorant.

This is very complicated and you could get into all sorts of areas re.
"the establishment" and its traditional disdain, and therefore lack of
thought regarding educating the masses or not. It used not to matter
whether we were educated or not, because the same people held sway
over us. That has changed, thankfully, but perhaps it went too far the
other way, and some sort of order needs to be regained now. Perhaps a
start has been made with "citizenship" classes.

Rather too many "" in this piece I am afraid but I haven't really
planned this response. It's been a sort of stream of conscience. Sorry
about that.


Sorry, I 'grew up' in the 80's education system, as did most of my
friends.
So I presume we must all be some sort of yob - in your view? I would like
to
say that the person who is being 'plain ignorant', in this case is you.

Please read the first line of my reply. It says " . . . a significant
proportion . . ." Obviously you are not part of that significant
proportion. If you were you would not have understood the words or
been able to write a coherent reply.


No John, I'm sorry to say that stating that I'm not part of "a significant
portion" is a rather poor argument. You remind me of a coversation, when I
was younger, between myself, my father and my mother. Halfway through my
father's telling off, my mother quickly added, isn't that just what your
father used to say to you?


John
In limine sapientiae


John
In limine sapientiae

D Russell14/5/04 2:12
snip
I do hope for both your sakes that he doesn't return.

We hope he doesn't return, believe me. Because if he does, it will be with
mischief in mind, I think.

'tis best to try to
forget him as swiftly as possible, I find myself hating it when I let people
like that get to me, mind you I let far too much get to me, like the morons
down our road who insist on flytipping in the hedge where we all have to
drive past in the mornings, one day I'll get me camera . . .
Duncan

Ray has said that the things that 'got' to him most about this bloke was him
calling me an 'ignorant' cow when, in fact, I'd been perfectly polite in the
face of him walking his dog off the lead round our garden and nursery (we
didn't know about the swim in the pond at that stage) and the fact that he
rapidly realised that with someone so stupid, so truly oblivious of his own
piggishness, so lacking some vital spark in the brain or any idea of
decency, that Ray couldn't hope to win. Certainly, the yob left and quickly
but he certainly didn't leave having learned that he'd behaved badly. I'm
tolerably certain he returned to his pit determined to behave just as
horrible next time he gets a chance. Just occasionally and it really is
extremely rare, we get the odd comment that shows someone is jealous of
where we live and I reckon this bloke was a very advanced case of that kind
of thinking. Most people are just so nice, so appreciative of us sharing
our garden with them, enjoy the nursery, love the tea room etc., that it
really does make up for the very, very few 'nasties'.
It's now passed into history and will become something to laugh at and about
but it leaves a sour taste for a while.
We don't treat people contemptuously; we try to treat every customer with
courtesy, whether they're buying a tiny plant for 75p or some massive great
tree fern for around £200.
I suppose that it annoyed, infuriated, and yes, hurt me, to see someone
abuse our personal ethics as this brute did.

As to your fly-tippers, I think a camera is a good idea. Get the number
plates. Some years ago when I last lived in Jersey, young motor cyclists
used to roar past my house, among many others, every Sunday afternoon at
speeds hugely in excess of the Jersey top speed of 40mph. And then they'd
go down a lane that ran behind my house and those of others and do it all
again, over and over and over. Eventually, I took to standing in my gate
with a notebook and pencil in my hand, apparently taking down bike numbers.
I only had to do it for two weekends.......

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
tuin man13/5/04 8:02


"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
Rhiannon S12/5/04 8:05

There's no 'possibly' about it. If people are growing up with bad
manners
and no respect for others or their property, it's the fault of their
upbringing, not our politicians.

I wondered if "upbringing" was included in John Edgar's;
"I think you can blame the education system."

Is not upbringing part of the education system?
His post did not define that point.
snip

With a little help from *Society*

Patrick


PARENTS raise CHILDREN in my view and I'm inclined to think anything else
is
a cop out. If parents don't like the way a school educates children in
its
social aspects then they, the parents, must strive to ensure changes are
made. My children went to day schools, boarding schools, back to day
schools and in one case to a 6th form college. I brought them up alone for
the most part and I was rigorous about good manners and behaviour, even
when
it would have been SO much easier not to bother. At no point did I
consider
it the sole responsibility of the school to teach my child/ren their
manners, their morals or their 'social' good behaviour. AND if I thought
any of those schools were at fault, I said so.
I would suggest that Society 'helps' only by accepting or rejecting, by
which time it may be too late for the individual.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds to email me)



Despite having no children myself, reading your post I am inclined to arrive
at a judgement to say well done. And, might I add a little thank-you from
*Society*
That said, though you have done much for your offspring, there are those who
have made similar effort, but because some extraordinary bad luck, or
something, their offspring have turn out to be bad 'uns.
I think I know one such dimwit. A new tenant arrived in this building I'm
in. First week I had to hammer on her door so forcibly that the door, which
was not latched, was inclined to open with each blow. Yet, inspite of the
hammering there was no reply. There was no reply, because she couldn't hear
me. And that was because her music was so loud... It really was that
loud...ooh and I'm in the next room, with nowt but a plaster wall
in-between.
Last week, I think twice in one day and once every day.
On a Saturday morning at 4:35am... and with an exercise machine that caused
the entire floor to shake.
Each time she is very polite and full of excuses, whilst playing dumb. Like,
it's because of "stress at work," was the early rise excuse, or "oops, I
tend to hold the remote control when exercising and so loose control." (gee,
now I wonder what the solution to that one might be).
Her excuses concern herself. Anyone else here would first think about others
beforehand and so problems would not arise to begin with.
Her solutions are equally self serving... she asked me to submit a diary so
that she can know when I'm expecting to be around, so as not to bother me.
Then it was a big eye opener her to her when I suggested that she would need
diaries from all the neighbours as well.
I haven't even touched on how she leaves the bathroom after her. She seems
to have an aversion to even rinsing her hairs etc off the bath, or flushing
the loo. Oh, and as for the kitchen.... don't even go there!
Indeed, I returned from a weekend working out of London to find my fridge
space taken over and last night, she had left a kitchen made for 3, so
cluttered with food, rubbish and ware that I had to move some of it to make
enough space to place a bowl, in order to fill it with cornflakes.
Yet, she is so amazed each time to find there's something about her
behaviour which isn't working for the rest of us.
The landlady has already had to ask her did her mother not teach her how to
clean up after herself (the answer was; yes)
It was a question to which I already suspected the true answer would have
still have being yes, because they are that sort of family and I'm fairly
sure her mother did as good as you.
It just hasn't paid off.

So, pat your self on the back, but then feel lucky also.

Patrick

On Fri, 14 May 2004 18:01:20 +0100, Sacha
wrote:

D Russell14/5/04 2:12
snip
I do hope for both your sakes that he doesn't return.

We hope he doesn't return, believe me. Because if he does, it will be with
mischief in mind, I think.

'tis best to try to
forget him as swiftly as possible, I find myself hating it when I let people
like that get to me, mind you I let far too much get to me, like the morons
down our road who insist on flytipping in the hedge where we all have to
drive past in the mornings, one day I'll get me camera . . .
Duncan

Ray has said that the things that 'got' to him most about this bloke was him
calling me an 'ignorant' cow when, in fact, I'd been perfectly polite in the
face of him walking his dog off the lead round our garden and nursery (we
didn't know about the swim in the pond at that stage

Time to put up a "WARNING PIRANHAS KEEP DOG ON LEAD" sign?

) and the fact that he
rapidly realised that with someone so stupid, so truly oblivious of his own
piggishness, so lacking some vital spark in the brain or any idea of
decency, that Ray couldn't hope to win. Certainly, the yob left and quickly
but he certainly didn't leave having learned that he'd behaved badly. I'm
tolerably certain he returned to his pit determined to behave just as
horrible next time he gets a chance. Just occasionally and it really is
extremely rare, we get the odd comment that shows someone is jealous of
where we live and I reckon this bloke was a very advanced case of that kind
of thinking. Most people are just so nice, so appreciative of us sharing
our garden with them, enjoy the nursery, love the tea room etc., that it
really does make up for the very, very few 'nasties'.
It's now passed into history and will become something to laugh at and about
but it leaves a sour taste for a while.
We don't treat people contemptuously; we try to treat every customer with
courtesy, whether they're buying a tiny plant for 75p or some massive great
tree fern for around £200.

A good policy, the person buying a 75p plant today could be back
buying a GBP200 plant another day. One of the things we like about
visiting UK garden centres is that staff always have time for a chat
and a bit of expert advice, no matter how little one buys.

We met a woman working in a Yorkshire garden centre, who had got a job
in a garden centre after retiring, not for the money but because she
met such nice people there.

I suppose that it annoyed, infuriated, and yes, hurt me, to see someone
abuse our personal ethics as this brute did.

As to your fly-tippers, I think a camera is a good idea. Get the number
plates. Some years ago when I last lived in Jersey, young motor cyclists
used to roar past my house, among many others, every Sunday afternoon at
speeds hugely in excess of the Jersey top speed of 40mph. And then they'd
go down a lane that ran behind my house and those of others and do it all
again, over and over and over. Eventually, I took to standing in my gate
with a notebook and pencil in my hand, apparently taking down bike numbers.
I only had to do it for two weekends.......

.... pointing a hair dryer at passing motoring nuisances seems to work
too, if you have a camera with a flash even better :-)

No John, I'm sorry to say that stating that I'm not part of "a significant
portion" is a rather poor argument. You remind me of a coversation, when I
was younger, between myself, my father and my mother. Halfway through my
father's telling off, my mother quickly added, isn't that just what your
father used to say to you?


John
In limine sapientiae


John
In limine sapientiae


What's the problem? If your grandfather was right in telling off your
father, then maybe your father was right in telling off you? That is
how some standards of behaviour become just that: standards of
behaviour. I appreciate that change must occur, but that implies that
new standards are set. What the complaints are about now, I believe,
is that there simply are no standards, and that is perhaps because
people like your grandfather and father are no longer doing their
children favours by setting them right on certain issues. They could
be setting them wrong as well, I suppose.
John
In limine sapientiae