On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:54:55 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:22:04 +0200, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 18:28:07 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:11:14 +0100, The Reids
wrote:

Following up to sarah

Oh I dunno. I lived in Enfield for a while.
Almost 6 months of winter and 3 months of continuous snow cover... it all
adds up. Yuck.

Connecticut? I was in Alberta. Further north, longer winter, still would
prefer it to six damp grey months that smell of rotting leaves :-))

No, near Barnet, last winter it snowed all evening once. Whole
place ground to a halt.

Grinding to a halt at the sign of the first snow flake is not really
something specific to UK.

You should see Austria when it first snows. Talk about a disaster.

and Bavaria too, I have never seen so many wrecked BMWs as I saw near
Munich, after a centimetre of snow fell overnight once.

It happens every year with the first snowfalls, and also after a prolonged
no-snow period.

--
Tim C.

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:59:20 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:40:49 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:51:23 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:53:48 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:28:38 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:
[-]
In that case I have been an organic gardener all my life. And yet, I
still do not go along with much of the strictures of the cult.

Are you referring to the self flagellation on the midden bit?

There's a lot I didn't know. Perhaps that explains the plague of
caterpillars...

... and frogs?

Haven't had a plague of frogs. I guess the regular sacrifices of slugs
was satisfactory. Must start a midden for next year.

We have a plague of frogs.

Ah, well. You know what to do :-)

I do?

Become a Jew and leave the country?
--
Tim C.

In article ,
"Franz Heymann" writes:
|
| It's getting up all those Dutch hills when the roads are icy...
|
| Yes. We have the same issue here in West Holland (a.k.a. East
| Anglia). The local technique is to drive incredibly slowly up any
| slope you find, stop for no apparent reason half way up, put the
| handbrake on, release the clutch until the front wheels spin, and
| then release the handbrake. After a few cars have done that, even
| drivers from other parts of the country can't get through.
|
| God alone knows what the technique was back in the days when knights
| were bold, men were men, and cars had rear-wheel drive. They may
| well have tried reversing up.
|
| My father always reversed his model T ford up steep mountain passes in
| South Africa. It was a lower gear than the starting gear. The model
| T only had a starting, a cruising and a reverse gear.

The same was true in the West Country in 1950 - there were some
villages where many cars could not get out in first.

However, my point was about applying that to getting uphill in
slippery conditions. Think weight distribution calculations in
O-level physics ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message
from (sarah) contains these words:

We lived at the top of a hill just north of Edmonton. My mother (who
learned to drive in England) regularly had to reverse her Mini up to our
drive when the roads were icy, which was most of the winter; she told us
it was standard practice in such circumstances. I think she kept a sack
of sand or something to put in the boot in the winter to increase
traction.

Wow! A woman who can reverse!

ducks and runs awaaaaayyy...

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:29:00 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:48:17 +0200, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:56:12 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:25:01 +0200, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:39:29 +0000 (UTC), Franz Heymann wrote:

My father always reversed his model T ford up steep mountain passes in
South Africa. It was a lower gear than the starting gear. The model
T only had a starting, a cruising and a reverse gear.

That's a good technique for front-wheel drive cars as well. Not because of
the gearing (in general you want to aim to be in a higher gear), but
because the weight of the car is mostly on the downhill axle and it gives
you more traction.

So you reverse up hills?

Up steep hills covered in snow and ice(or loose gravel), when you can't get
up forwards because the chains don't grip, it normally works.
It's a bit scary though.

Especially on autobahns :-)

There aren't many Autobahns that steep. Luckily.
On an empty mountain road with trees and cliffs on either side it's pretty
worrying too.
--
Tim C.

The message 1097225429.OO0i7PhX8wdTBEf0Kn7OMQ@teranews
from Tim Challenger contains these words:

Grinding to a halt at the sign of the first snow flake is not really
something specific to UK.

You should see Austria when it first snows. Talk about a disaster.

and Bavaria too, I have never seen so many wrecked BMWs as I saw near
Munich, after a centimetre of snow fell overnight once.

It happens every year with the first snowfalls, and also after a prolonged
no-snow period.

I didn't think goldfish were allowed to drive?

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 12:25:54 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:16:40 +0200, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 11:29:00 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 10:48:17 +0200, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:56:12 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:25:01 +0200, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:39:29 +0000 (UTC), Franz Heymann wrote:

My father always reversed his model T ford up steep mountain passes in
South Africa. It was a lower gear than the starting gear. The model
T only had a starting, a cruising and a reverse gear.

That's a good technique for front-wheel drive cars as well. Not because of
the gearing (in general you want to aim to be in a higher gear), but
because the weight of the car is mostly on the downhill axle and it gives
you more traction.

So you reverse up hills?

Up steep hills covered in snow and ice(or loose gravel), when you can't get
up forwards because the chains don't grip, it normally works.
It's a bit scary though.

Especially on autobahns :-)

There aren't many Autobahns that steep. Luckily.

The one south of Stuttgart comes to mind.

There're steeper stretches. Bits south of Munich.

The bit over the Schwäbisch Alb was dodgy but that's not half as bad since
they built the tunnels some years ago. Anyway, it was rarely snowy as they
spray an antifreeze mixture on the road at the top and let it run down the
road.

The roads have to be pretty steep to make the difference in weight on the
axle significant. No m'way gradient will reach that.

--
Tim C.

Tim Challenger wrote:
On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:39:29 +0000 (UTC), Franz Heymann wrote:
[...]
My father always reversed his model T ford up steep mountain
passes
in South Africa. It was a lower gear than the starting gear. The
model T only had a starting, a cruising and a reverse gear.

That's a good technique for front-wheel drive cars as well. Not
because of the gearing (in general you want to aim to be in a
higher
gear), but because the weight of the car is mostly on the downhill
axle and it gives you more traction.

I'm no engineer, but surely it _is_ a question of gearing? Of course
you always want to be in the highest gear possible for the situation;
but these were situations in which first was too high to cope. I
thought traction came into it in the sense that you wanted any extra
traction over the driven wheels, whichever end of they car they were
at, not dependent on the direction of travel -- but not so unbalanced
as to imperil the steering.

I hope it's clear that I'm only asking.

Mike.

Tim Challenger wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:54:55 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:22:04 +0200, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 18:28:07 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:11:14 +0100, The Reids
wrote:

Following up to sarah

Oh I dunno. I lived in Enfield for a while.
Almost 6 months of winter and 3 months of continuous snow
cover... it all adds up. Yuck.

Connecticut? I was in Alberta. Further north, longer winter,
still would prefer it to six damp grey months that smell of
rotting leaves :-))

No, near Barnet, last winter it snowed all evening once. Whole
place ground to a halt.

Grinding to a halt at the sign of the first snow flake is not
really something specific to UK.

You should see Austria when it first snows. Talk about a
disaster.

and Bavaria too, I have never seen so many wrecked BMWs as I saw
near
Munich, after a centimetre of snow fell overnight once.

It happens every year with the first snowfalls, and also after a
prolonged no-snow period.

I find this information strangely reassuring. If you can tell me the
same happens to their trains, it will have made a UK resident very
happy!

Mike.

Tim Challenger wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:59:20 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:40:49 +0100, (sarah)
wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 20:51:23 +0100,
(sarah)
wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:53:48 +0100,
(sarah)
wrote:

Martin wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 15:28:38 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:
[-]
In that case I have been an organic gardener all my life.
And yet, I still do not go along with much of the
strictures
of the cult.

Are you referring to the self flagellation on the midden
bit?

There's a lot I didn't know. Perhaps that explains the plague
of
caterpillars...

... and frogs?

Haven't had a plague of frogs. I guess the regular sacrifices
of
slugs was satisfactory. Must start a midden for next year.

We have a plague of frogs.

Ah, well. You know what to do :-)

I do?

Become a Jew and leave the country?

Where do I sign? I'm rather attached to my first-born.

Mike.

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:32:35 +0100, Mike Lyle wrote:

Tim Challenger wrote:
On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 21:39:29 +0000 (UTC), Franz Heymann wrote:
[...]
My father always reversed his model T ford up steep mountain
passes
in South Africa. It was a lower gear than the starting gear. The
model T only had a starting, a cruising and a reverse gear.

That's a good technique for front-wheel drive cars as well. Not
because of the gearing (in general you want to aim to be in a
higher
gear), but because the weight of the car is mostly on the downhill
axle and it gives you more traction.

I'm no engineer, but surely it _is_ a question of gearing? Of course
you always want to be in the highest gear possible for the situation;
but these were situations in which first was too high to cope. I
thought traction came into it in the sense that you wanted any extra
traction over the driven wheels, whichever end of they car they were
at, not dependent on the direction of travel -- but not so unbalanced
as to imperil the steering.

If you're going up a hill in a fwd car and the wheels are spinning you
don't have much steering control.

I hope it's clear that I'm only asking.

This started from a topic about snowfall, not just steep hills. And my
comments only apply to slippery roads. If the road has enough grip, and you
can't get up then you want a lower gear.

If you have enough power, but can't get the grip, the only way to improve
that is to get more weight on the driven wheels.

If you're going up a steep hill and there's not enough weight on the front
wheels to steer, you're never going to get enough traction to drive up it
either. That's the least of your problems.
Contrary to popular belief rwd cars are normally better at getting up steep
slippers slopes that fwd.

If you're going up a steep hill in a car, a larger proportion of the weight
will be carried by the rear axle.
In a rwd car traction would be increased (in the same way as putting a
sandbag into the boot). If you haven't enough traction to get up the hill
then all you can do is add more weight over the rear axle.

If the car is a front wheel drive, then the traction is reduced.
To get more traction you increase the weight over the driven axle. You can
do this by putting sandbags on the bonnet, or turning around and
effectively turning the car into a rwd car. The actual gearing (either
first, second or reverse) is less of a factor. Firstly you have to get
traction, *then* you can worry about gearing.

--
Tim C.

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 12:34:54 +0100, Mike Lyle wrote:

Tim Challenger wrote:
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 09:54:55 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:22:04 +0200, Tim Challenger
wrote:

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 18:28:07 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Thu, 07 Oct 2004 17:11:14 +0100, The Reids
wrote:

Following up to sarah

Oh I dunno. I lived in Enfield for a while.
Almost 6 months of winter and 3 months of continuous snow
cover... it all adds up. Yuck.

Connecticut? I was in Alberta. Further north, longer winter,
still would prefer it to six damp grey months that smell of
rotting leaves :-))

No, near Barnet, last winter it snowed all evening once. Whole
place ground to a halt.

Grinding to a halt at the sign of the first snow flake is not
really something specific to UK.

You should see Austria when it first snows. Talk about a
disaster.

and Bavaria too, I have never seen so many wrecked BMWs as I saw
near
Munich, after a centimetre of snow fell overnight once.

It happens every year with the first snowfalls, and also after a
prolonged no-snow period.

I find this information strangely reassuring. If you can tell me the
same happens to their trains, it will have made a UK resident very
happy!

Um..... not really. Sorry.
Trains are only delayed when there's over 3 feet of snowfall overnight
....or for avalanches.

--
Tim C.

The Reids wrote:

Following up to sarah

Grinding to a halt at the sign of the first snow flake is not really
something specific to UK.

In my mind's eye I see a single perfect snowflake drifting gently to the
ground from a perfect pale grey sky. The driver of a car sees it and
screeches to a halt, pointing. The car in the next lane stops, too, and
before you know it the entire M1 is sitting gently in the lowering dusk.
For no reason whatsoever :-)

Sarah, you are poet rather than AA man, and the better for it.
sorry AA woman.

blush

regards
sarah



--
Think of it as evolution in action.

Tim Challenger wrote:

On Thu, 7 Oct 2004 16:53:48 +0100, sarah wrote:

No -- is it worse than our backyard in Edmonton the first year we had a
dog?

Oh I dunno. I lived in Enfield for a while.
Almost 6 months of winter and 3 months of continuous snow cover... it all
adds up. Yuck.

Connecticut?

We were talking about Edmonton. I assumed the real one, in London, I meant
the real Enfield, next door to Edmonton, London, GB.

Ah. There are many Edmontons; the original must be attractive, wherever
it is. Seem to be fewer Enfields, though.

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

Tim Challenger wrote:

On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 08:40:48 +0100, sarah wrote:

We lived at the top of a hill just north of Edmonton. My mother (who
learned to drive in England) regularly had to reverse her Mini up to our
drive when the roads were icy, which was most of the winter; she told us
it was standard practice in such circumstances. I think she kept a sack
of sand or something to put in the boot in the winter to increase
traction.

A sack of sand on the bonnet would have been even more effective
Reversing up would have had a similar effect.

We used to be allowed to ride on the bonnet (not allowed to grip the
w/screen wipers, only the roof-gutter) for short relatively slow trips
off-road, in Drumheller. In the summer. It was extremely good fun, but I
can't imagine what any official at all would say about it today --
probably be speechless with rage and horror.

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.